Could an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza meet its aims?

[Social Media]

 

Israel's leaders have declared that Hamas will be wiped off the face of the Earth and Gaza will never go back to what it was.

"Every Hamas member is a dead man," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said after fighters from the militant group killed 1,400 people in a brutal attack on Israel.

The goal of Operation Swords of Iron appears far more ambitious than anything the military has planned in Gaza before and could last months. But is its aim realistic, and how can its commanders possibly fulfil it?

A ground invasion of the Gaza Strip involves house-to-house urban fighting and carries immense risks to the civilian population. Air strikes have already claimed 3,000 lives, according to Gaza officials, and more than a million people have fled their homes.

Israel's military has the added task of rescuing at least 199 hostages, held in unknown locations across Gaza.

Herzi Halevi, chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), has vowed to "dismantle" Hamas, and has singled out its political head in Gaza. But is there an ultimate vision for how Gaza will look after 16 years of Hamas's violent rule?

 

"I don't think Israel can dismantle every Hamas member, because it's an idea of extremist Islam," says military analyst Amir Bar Shalom of Israel's Army Radio. "But you can weaken it as much as you can so it has no operational capabilities."

 

That might be a more realistic objective. Israel has already fought four wars with Hamas, and every attempt to halt its rocket attacks has failed.

Michael Milstein, head of the Palestinian studies forum of Tel Aviv University, says destroying or weakening Hamas would be highly complicated. Quite apart from the 25,000-plus strength of Hamas's military wing, the militant group has another 80-90,000 more members who are part of its social welfare infrastructure, or Dawa, he says.

IDF spokesman Lt Col Jonathan Conricus said by the end of this war Hamas should no longer have the military capacity to "threaten or kill Israeli civilians".

 

FULL STORY

[ignore it]

Let us pray it will happen.

[khaowong1]

13 hours ago, ignore it said:

Let us pray it will happen.

🙏

[khaowong1]

When you kill women and children indiscriminately, your not a freedom fighter, your a terrorist.  The only way to stop them is to wipe them out.  Go Israel.  

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, Social Media said:

"Every Hamas member is a dead man," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said

Then he is apparently saying that every male in Gaza is going to be killed, as after the one sided attacks blowing over a thousand children to bits it is probable that every adult male in Gaza is now Hamas and every boy is going to want to join Hamas when they get old enough.

 

The israelis believe in an eye for an  eye, and it's going to come back to haunt them.

 

The israelis can win militarily in Gaza, as they can just bomb or shell any resistance into oblivion, thanks to the US ( apparently ) giving them more bombs and shells to do so.

However, they will, IMO, lose the aftermath, as the world will turn against them. The world is already turning against them with large protests in Japan, the Phillippines and India, not forgetting every Muslim country.

Protests in the US congress, and outside the ICC in the Hague with a sea of Palestinian flags.

( as seen on Al Jazeera ).

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, khaowong1 said:

When you kill women and children indiscriminately, your not a freedom fighter, your a terrorist.  The only way to stop them is to wipe them out.  Go Israel.  

Are you aware that israel is killing women and children indiscriminately?

Over 1,000 dead Palestinian children and counting.

How does that fit your narrative?

Who are the terrorists now?

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, ignore it said:

Let us pray it will happen.

I also pray it will happen, but I think I'm praying for something different to yourself.

[khaowong1]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Are you aware that israel is killing women and children indiscriminately?

Over 1,000 dead Palestinian children and counting.

How does that fit your narrative?

Who are the terrorists now?

So, who in your opinion should Israel be targeting for this massacre that Hamas pulled off?  

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, khaowong1 said:

So, who in your opinion should Israel be targeting for this massacre that Hamas pulled off?  

[Morch]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Then he is apparently saying that every male in Gaza is going to be killed, as after the one sided attacks blowing over a thousand children to bits it is probable that every adult male in Gaza is now Hamas and every boy is going to want to join Hamas when they get old enough.

 

The israelis believe in an eye for an  eye, and it's going to come back to haunt them.

 

The israelis can win militarily in Gaza, as they can just bomb or shell any resistance into oblivion, thanks to the US ( apparently ) giving them more bombs and shells to do so.

However, they will, IMO, lose the aftermath, as the world will turn against them. The world is already turning against them with large protests in Japan, the Phillippines and India, not forgetting every Muslim country.

Protests in the US congress, and outside the ICC in the Hague with a sea of Palestinian flags.

( as seen on Al Jazeera ).

 

Again spewing 'probable' assertions you have no way of proving, and not much insight to anyway. If you think all Gazans identify with Hamas now, you'd probably be wrong. Were they as blind as yourself, they might have just stayed in their North Gaza homes as the Hamas urged. The reality is that most evacuated to the Southern parts of the Gaza Strip.

 

Interesting that you routinely fail to apply this eye-for-an-eye observation to the Palestinian side. Does going on killing Israelis do much for their cause? Was the barbaric Hamas attack helpful for realizing it?

 

There were exactly such protests, and worse, during each previous round of fighting. None of your many previous comments that things are about to change came true much.

[Denim]

In answer to the title of the thread , IMO ..............no.  Israel will find itself playing  ' whack a mole '  on a grand and tedious scale .

 

Even if they could totally destroy Hamas , they have created such a hatred amongst the Palestinians and their sympathizers that there would be a swift reincarnation of yet another group of anti Israel fighters. No change , just rinse and repeat.

 

Violence begets more violence in a vicious cycle. Both sides are intransigent in their aims so the killing will continue until there arises a new set of leaders with a genuine willingness to compromise. Unfortunately you would have to be a supreme optimist to see even a glimmer of light at the end of this long tunnel.

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, Denim said:

In answer to the title of the thread , IMO ..............no.  Israel will find itself playing  ' whack a mole '  on a grand and tedious scale .

 

Even if they could totally destroy Hamas , they have created such a hatred amongst the Palestinians and their sympathizers that there would be a swift reincarnation of yet another group of anti Israel fighters. No change , just rinse and repeat.

 

Violence begets more violence in a vicious cycle. Both sides are intransigent in their aims so the killing will continue until there arises a new set of leaders with a genuine willingness to compromise. Unfortunately you would have to be a supreme optimist to see even a glimmer of light at the end of this long tunnel.

 

As far as the various statements by Israeli leaders about fully and utterly eradicating Hamas - not doable, and I doubt they are not aware of it. Obviously some of that is for public consumption.

 

A more realistic goal would be to deal Hamas such a blow, severely damaging its terrorist capabilities and infrastructure. Not going to make it disappear, but perhaps less of a factor in relevant politics, and less of threat. Even that, though, can take weeks, if not months - a time during which the IDF will have to remain in the Gaza Strip. This presence by itself, even disregarding military activities is bound to cause more problems.

 

As for another outfit taking Hamas's place - maybe, in time. But there is no immediately apparent successor who might step up. I think the Israeli thinking now is that this sort of strategy (accepting Hamas as lesser evil, or semi-rational) already failed. Not that they seem to have a plausible alternative strategy long term, though.

 

You pointed out, correctly, that this has to do with ongoing leadership crisis on both sides. The other side of that, is that while both leaders in place are inadequate in some ways, they are adept playing their respective domestic political turfs, effectively curtailing any sign of emerging competition among the ranks. One looks at what's on offer among both ruling parties on both sides, and it's wasteland of oxygen-wasters.

[rickudon]

Depends on what Israel's real aims are. Genocide, Ethnic cleansing? Always achievable.

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, rickudon said:

Depends on what Israel's real aims are. Genocide, Ethnic cleansing? Always achievable.

Here is a clue Ethnic cleansing

Germany criticises Netanyahu over 'New Middle East' map without Palestine

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230925-germany-criticises-netanyahu-over-new-middle-east-map-without-palestine/

 

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, Denim said:

In answer to the title of the thread , IMO ..............no.  Israel will find itself playing  ' whack a mole '  on a grand and tedious scale .

 

Even if they could totally destroy Hamas , they have created such a hatred amongst the Palestinians and their sympathizers that there would be a swift reincarnation of yet another group of anti Israel fighters. No change , just rinse and repeat.

 

Violence begets more violence in a vicious cycle. Both sides are intransigent in their aims so the killing will continue until there arises a new set of leaders with a genuine willingness to compromise. Unfortunately you would have to be a supreme optimist to see even a glimmer of light at the end of this long tunnel.

You are correct, except that it will likely be America playing ' whack a mole ' on a grand and tedious scale.

israel may have a large army, but it doesn't have the ability to fight multiple angry Arab countries as well as Iran at the same time.

 

I find it hard to understand why american leaders think that pictures on tv of what is happening in Gaza can just be explained away by saying it's Hamas's fault over and over and over.

 

The longer this keeps going on the television screens all over the world, the more likely revenge will be taken against israelis, Americans, and British ( and also any western person ) as soft targets when traveling.

 

Just watching on Al Jazeera that South Africa is stirring against the israelis, as the PLO supported them in their fight against apartheid.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, rickudon said:

Depends on what Israel's real aims are. Genocide, Ethnic cleansing? Always achievable.

Israel stated it's goals. That you think they are not the 'real' ones, without offering support, doesn't carry a whole lot of weight.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Here is a clue Ethnic cleansing

Germany criticises Netanyahu over 'New Middle East' map without Palestine

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230925-germany-criticises-netanyahu-over-new-middle-east-map-without-palestine/

 

It's clearly wrong, and quite obviously an oversight. But proof? If Israel wanted this it would have happened long ago. One indication would be that it was actually a news story and a headline - as in something that doesn't happen every day.

 

On the other hand, many Palestinians and 'pro-Palestinian' protests include chants of 'river to the sea', and maps of the supposedly 'historical' Palestine (presenting all the territory as Palestinian) are often posted (including on here) or used in Palestinian schools. Not too many headlines on that, not much outrage, and no complaints from the likes of you.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Morch
typo

[vinny41]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

It's clearly wrong, and quite obviously an oversight. But proof? If Israel wanted this it would have happened long ago. One indication would be that it was actually a news story and a headline - as in something that doesn't happen every day.

 

On the other hand, many Palestinians and 'pro-Palestinian' protests include chants of 'river to the sea', and maps of the supposedly 'historical' Palestine (presenting all the territory as Palestinian) are often posted (including on here) or used in Palestinian schools. Not too many headlines on that, not much outrage, and no complaints from the likes of you.

I haven't seen any of the above maybe you should post a link if your going to reference it in your posts

[Morch]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You are correct, except that it will likely be America playing ' whack a mole ' on a grand and tedious scale.

israel may have a large army, but it doesn't have the ability to fight multiple angry Arab countries as well as Iran at the same time.

 

I find it hard to understand why american leaders think that pictures on tv of what is happening in Gaza can just be explained away by saying it's Hamas's fault over and over and over.

 

The longer this keeps going on the television screens all over the world, the more likely revenge will be taken against israelis, Americans, and British ( and also any western person ) as soft targets when traveling.

 

Just watching on Al Jazeera that South Africa is stirring against the israelis, as the PLO supported them in their fight against apartheid.

Are there many USA ground troops deployed? Something that would indicate involvement in the manner you insinuate? To date, most of what was deployed are Naval and Aerial assets. That's not quite what you're on about. The 'whack a more' was clearly a reference to Hamas in the Gaza Strip - not what you implied.

 

USA citizens were murdered and abducted. You can continue to ignore or minimize this fact. Another fact would be that the American people seem to be in favor of supporting Israel on this.

 

Apparently, you seem to think that if a terrorist organization carries out a major attack, nothing should be done about it and no media reports should be aired, for fear of terrorists and their supporters carrying out further attacks. Maybe you didn't think it through?

 

South Africa's stance toward Israel is traditionally hostile. Nothing new there.

 

 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I haven't seen any of the above maybe you should post a link if your going to reference it in your posts

Both posted on these topics more than once. Both appearing on news reports often.

Not buying your 'I haven't seen any'.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Morch

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

Both posted on these topics more than once. Both appearing on news reports often.

Not buying your 'I haven't seen any'.

I will take that as you can't find any

Edited October 20, 2023 by vinny41
typo

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, vinny41 said:

I will take that has you can't find any

As mentioned, plenty posted already in these topics

 

Suella Braverman has said the “From the river to the sea, Palestine must be free” chant shouted by protesters at the weekend has become “a staple of anti-Semitic discourse”.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/16/suella-braverman-rows-anti-israel-chant/

[Morch]

Just now, vinny41 said:

I will take that has you can't find any

You want to be disingenuous, that's your choice.can take it as you like. The fact is that both were linked more than once on recent parallel topics. To deny knowledge of the 'river to the sea' thing is bizarre.

 

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

As mentioned, plenty posted already in these topics

 

Suella Braverman has said the “From the river to the sea, Palestine must be free” chant shouted by protesters at the weekend has become “a staple of anti-Semitic discourse”.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/16/suella-braverman-rows-anti-israel-chant/

Thousands of Jewish nationalists, some of them chanting “Death to Arabs” and other racist slogans, paraded on Thursday through the main Palestinian thoroughfare of Jerusalem’s Old City, in an annual display that caused new friction between Jews and Palestinians in the tense city.

Israeli crowds chant racist slogans, taunt Palestinians during Jerusalem Day march

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, vinny41 said:

Thousands of Jewish nationalists, some of them chanting “Death to Arabs” and other racist slogans, paraded on Thursday through the main Palestinian thoroughfare of Jerusalem’s Old City, in an annual display that caused new friction between Jews and Palestinians in the tense city.

Israeli crowds chant racist slogans, taunt Palestinians during Jerusalem Day march

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march

Whats that got to do with you claiming the links couldn't be found, there are dozens of them from all over the world not just one.

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Whats that got to do with you claiming the links couldn't be found, there are dozens of them from all over the world not just one.

My post shows that both sides chant death to the other side 

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

My post shows that both sides chant death to the other side 

That wasn't your claim and all your post shows is that once a year a group of overwhelmingly male Orthodox teens shouts those slogans. 

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

That wasn't your claim and all your post shows is that once a year a group of overwhelmingly male Orthodox teens shouts those slogans. 

you miss out the young men

The marchers, who were overwhelmingly male Orthodox teens and young men, 

[thaibeachlovers]

20 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Thousands of Jewish nationalists, some of them chanting “Death to Arabs” and other racist slogans, paraded on Thursday through the main Palestinian thoroughfare of Jerusalem’s Old City, in an annual display that caused new friction between Jews and Palestinians in the tense city.

Israeli crowds chant racist slogans, taunt Palestinians during Jerusalem Day march

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march

No doubt those racist thugs have massed police and army support, while if any Palestinian saying the same thing but about the israelis would be arrested immediately.

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

you miss out the young men

The marchers, who were overwhelmingly male Orthodox teens and young men, 

And? It clearly says "overwhelmingly male Orthodox teens"