King Charles stops short of apology for ‘abhorrent’ colonial violence in Kenya

[Nick Carter icp]

15 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Harry wore that 'fancy dress' ONCE, and his mate who he called <deleted> was OK with it. 

 

   Harry wore the Nazi style uniform at a fancy dress party and he wore that uniform as a response to his school mates calling him a Nazi because he has German ancestors 

[KannikaP]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Harry wore the Nazi style uniform at a fancy dress party and he wore that uniform as a response to his school mates calling him a Nazi because he has German ancestors 

Well done Harry boy.

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

The Brits ended the slave trade. My taxes helped pay the debt for doing so.

 

Meanwhile, the Americans kept slaves. 

 

These are facts.

 

Maybe you should focus on the atrocities of your own country, of which there are many (and far more recent).  

I’m not sure what you are talking about ‘my country’.

 

1. What you assume to be ‘my country’ is not the subject of discussion.

 

2. It’s a piece of personal information I have never shared on this forum and you have no rights at all to discuss.

 

3. It’s together with your ill informed off topic slave trade distraction are   whataboutary.

 

Refer top of thread fr the actual subject under discussion.

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m not sure what you are talking about ‘my country’.

 

1. What you assume to be ‘my country’ is not the subject of discussion.

 

2. It’s a piece of personal information I have never shared on this forum and you have no rights at all to discuss.

 

3. It’s together with your ill informed off topic slave trade distraction are   whataboutary.

 

Refer top of thread fr the actual subject under discussion.

 

 

 

 

Trying to shut down the debate when it becomes apparent you're losing it. How very Left of you.

 

You'll be telling me what words I can use next. Oh, wait a minute...😃

[Photoguy21]

No mention of the Mau Mau atrocities or did I miss them?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

I agree with that politician who said - "Yes we will pay you reparations for our past injustices, just as soon as the Romans pay ours."

"And then we will send you a bill for all the rodas and hospitals and legal systems that we created and built."

 

Victimhood should never be rewarded - because it never stops. 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Trying to shut down the debate when it becomes apparent you're losing it. How very Left of you.

 

You'll be telling me what words I can use next. Oh, wait a minute...😃

 

If you were debating you’d be discussing the topic of the thread, not your baseless assumptions about members with whom you disagree.

 

 

[Photoguy21]

Just now, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I agree with that politician who said - "Yes we will pay you reparations for our past injustices, just as soon as the Romans pay ours."

"And then we will send you a bill for all the rodas and hospitals and legal systems that we created and built."

 

Victimhood should never be rewarded - because it never stops. 

It was the African people who started the slave trade and it was the British that ended it. As many slaves were taken from Europe to Africa in particular the Slavs the word slave was derived from this.

If you want the full history look up Thomas Sowell a black author. You will learn a lot.

[Morch]

What have the Romans ever done for us.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Photoguy21 said:

No mention of the Mau Mau atrocities or did I miss them?

You are doing better than most.

 

You’ve at least identified one of the protagonist groups. 
 

Now I wonder, were the ‘atrocities’ alleged by the Mau Mau fact or propaganda fiction?

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[Photoguy21]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

You are doing better than most.

 

You’ve at least identified one of the protagonist groups. 
 

Now I wonder, we’re the ‘atrocities’ alleged by the Mau Mau fact or propaganda fiction?

 

 

Fact

[RuamRudy]

34 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

We outlawed it. Never kept slaves, unlike the Americans.

 

We finished paying for it in 2015. Meaning MY taxes helped pay for the end of slavery. Yes, MY taxes. You're welcome.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/17/government-finished-paying-uks-slavery-debt-2015/

 

Something you Brit hating Democrats would do well to remember.

 

 

 

Can you not see it for what it was? That wasn't reparations going to benefit those who were directly impacted by Britain's shameful slavery past, that was the taxpayer paying off the rich for their financial losses.

 

Why is it that Tories love to socialise payments to the wealthy?

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I agree with that politician who said - "Yes we will pay you reparations for our past injustices, just as soon as the Romans pay ours."

"And then we will send you a bill for all the rodas and hospitals and legal systems that we created and built."

 

Victimhood should never be rewarded - because it never stops. 

 

The Roman empire exists only in history books. There are none of it's institutions left to atone.

 

But we continue to thrive. 

[RuamRudy]

45 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Harry wore that 'fancy dress' ONCE, and his mate who he called <deleted> was OK with it. 

 

Those are simply boring, repetitive tropes used to criticize the man without the critics alluding to his true 'crime' (in the eyes of the right wing 'patriots') which was marrying a woman of African American heritage. 

 

[TimeMachine]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Alleged? Are you suggesting that Britain never committed genocide, never massacred countless thousands of innocent men, women and children, stole billions of pounds from other countries and irreparably damaged their economic development?

You are making me think England is a lot worse than China rather than being equally flawed. I suppose that's possible. I have been to China but I haven't been to England. I will go one day and see for myself.

[RuamRudy]

Just now, TimeMachine said:

You are making me think England is a lot worse than China rather than being equally flawed. I suppose that's possible. I have been to China but I haven't been to England. I will go one day and see for myself.

 

The empire was British rather than English, and the spoils of empire can be found across the British isles. 

 

As for being worse than China, I don't see it as a league table where the lower down you are, the less guilty you are.

[Chomper Higgot]

15 minutes ago, Morch said:

What have the Romans ever done for us.

You’ve perhaps unwittingly identified the font of the understanding many Brits have of the impacts of empire.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The Roman empire exists only in history books. There are none of it's institutions left to atone.

But we continue to thrive. 

 

You are missing the point.  Atone for what ??  The history of civilisations going back to the beginning, is a history of conquest and destruction. It is a normal part of the development of human civilisations - the old and weak, get taken over and removed by the new strong group.  Once you go back and pay reparations for doing what comes naturally, you will never stop. Advancement does not come from atonement - advancement comes from behaving differently.  Or are you saying that the Jews should all be paid reparations for what was done to them by the Islamic armies that drove them out of their homelands? After all - their instutions are alive and well today.  You could do the same thing all over the world. The truth is that all of us have come from a past of conquest and destruction - none of us have a history that does not include both. 

[Fruit Trader]

17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Now I wonder, were the ‘atrocities’ alleged by the Mau Mau fact or propaganda fiction?

 

Fact.

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

What have the Romans ever done for us.

 

They gave us the question mark...

 

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_mark#%3A~%3Atext%3DThe_symbol_is_thought_to%2Csymbol_that_we_use_today.?wprov=sfla1

[scorecard]

21 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

That’s a good start.

OK but if he's concerned about this why didn't he develop a better understanding 30, 40 years ago? 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

You are missing the point.  Atone for what ??  The history of civilisations going back to the beginning, is a history of conquest and destruction. It is a normal part of the development of human civilisations - the old and weak, get taken over and removed by the new strong group.  Once you go back and pay reparations for doing what comes naturally, you will never stop. Advancement does not come from atonement - advancement comes from behaving differently.  Or are you saying that the Jews should all be paid reparations for what was done to them by the Islamic armies that drove them out of their homelands? After all - their instutions are alive and well today.  You could do the same thing all over the world. The truth is that all of us have come from a past of conquest and destruction - none of us have a history that does not include both. 

 

I am not missing the point but you appear to be missing the development of enlightenment. We are no longer savages who live by partisan codes of self advancement to the cost of others. 

 

We have had laws in place for hundreds of years which protect the individual from theft, murder, displacement etc. Our world is not the one of Genghis khan; when the empire existed so too did those laws.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, scorecard said:

OK but if he's concerned about this why didn't he develop a better understanding 30, 40 years ago? 

Much of the history of the Kenya independence struggle was unexamined until very recently.

 

Caroline Elkins ‘Imperial Reckoning’ 2005, first lifted the lid.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[TimeMachine]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The empire was British rather than English,

Tomatoe tomato. Haha. Same same big maxxy. But let's not blame the Scottish. My favourite race along with Netherlands. I also like the Dutch.

 

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You’ve perhaps unwittingly identified the font of the understanding many Brits have of the impacts of empire.

 

 

Some of my family bore the impact of the empire, thanks.

 

As for unwittingly - I think that a whole lot of the strong commentary on such things is partisan, and used to support underlying political narratives. Me, I can accept that there were outright evil things done (even by the standards of past times), but at the same time acknowledge that there were other facets to it.

 

Also, I do not much subscribe to the ritual of 'apology' for all long past sins. Sometimes seems like those making much of such apologies are ideologically or politically motivated, rather than actually having much stake in matter involved. As shows go, a public apology is a good one, though. The notion that the 'apology' changes a whole lot, or that a long gone past implies some imperative for eternal self-flagellation, are things I do not agree with. 

 

Accepting responsibility or acknowledging the past are welcome. So is material aid aimed to improve current conditions, all the more so if there's a direct connection to past actions.

 

 

[billd766]

40 minutes ago, Photoguy21 said:

No mention of the Mau Mau atrocities or did I miss them?

Thank you for that comment.

 

Nor mention of what the Mau Mau did to Kenyan people who were loyal to the UK either.

 

I wonder when the Kenyan government will acknowledge that, apologise for their part in atrocities and pay compensation.

 

Something that the holier than thou brigade always ignore.

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Some of my family bore the impact of the empire, thanks.

 

As for unwittingly - I think that a whole lot of the strong commentary on such things is partisan, and used to support underlying political narratives. Me, I can accept that there were outright evil things done (even by the standards of past times), but at the same time acknowledge that there were other facets to it.

 

Also, I do not much subscribe to the ritual of 'apology' for all long past sins. Sometimes seems like those making much of such apologies are ideologically or politically motivated, rather than actually having much stake in matter involved. As shows go, a public apology is a good one, though. The notion that the 'apology' changes a whole lot, or that a long gone past implies some imperative for eternal self-flagellation, are things I do not agree with. 

 

Accepting responsibility or acknowledging the past are welcome. So is material aid aimed to improve current conditions, all the more so if there's a direct connection to past actions.

 

 

I agree with much of that but there is another issue, that of the hidden history and the myths that have been inserted in the place of facts.

 

It is not a coincidence that those ignorant of the history of these events are the same people who are offended by the past being addressed and resorting to jingoistic obfuscation.

 

It’s an issue repeated time and time again in the British public response to the history of empire and the impact of empire on modern Britain.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

Thank you for that comment.

 

Nor mention of what the Mau Mau did to Kenyan people who were loyal to the UK either.

 

I wonder when the Kenyan government will acknowledge that, apologise for their part in atrocities and pay compensation.

 

Something that the holier than thou brigade always ignore.

You will of course have historical references for this? 

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Thank you for that comment.

 

Nor mention of what the Mau Mau did to Kenyan people who were loyal to the UK either.

 

I wonder when the Kenyan government will acknowledge that, apologise for their part in atrocities and pay compensation.

 

Something that the holier than thou brigade always ignore.

 

Treasonous actions are not usually tolerated by any group of people. What do you think of the Ukrainians siding with the Russians in Crimea? 

[Walker88]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

 

Focusing on centuries old allegations.😃

 

Why not focus on modern day slavery in the middle east? Atrocities in China? Much easier to slag off the Brits for ancient history I guess, especially if you are a Brit/West hater.

The Mau Mau rebellion was in the 1950s and 60s. Hardly 'centuries old'.

 

I met an old Brit military guy who wrote a book on it and was part of it. Ian Stuart McWalter Henderson, and IIRC, his book was "Manhunt in Kenya".

 

Henderson went on to be a major figure in intel in Bahrain in the 1970s to 1990s.

 

He was one of the many Brits who played roles in Gulf intelligence in the 70s, 80s and 90s. The most colorful---slightly off topic---was Brig Timothy Landon, who was the right hand man of the Sultan of Oman. Landon was an interesting fellow, who ended up extremely wealthy before passing from cancer.