Change in the tax law does target expats living in Thailand and extends reporting obligations

[The Cyclist]

15 minutes ago, Misty said:

 

Viewers please note:  AMCHAM Thailand has an excellent tax committee.  Years ago this guy gave a couple of presentations for AMCHAM.  Not only is he no longer an AMCHAM member, but he is also not asked to speak there.

 

No idea who these people are, but they do seem to confirm something that I have said all along.

 

Anyone from a Country with a DTA with Thailand will probably not be hit with Thai tax when they remit income from that Country if it has already been taxed in that Country.

 

Worse case scenario, I might have to go and get a TIN and file an annual Nil return, with DTA covered income filled in on the addition to the form that the Thais are currently working on.

 

Sounds like a lot of work, I might have to flee Thailand instead 

 

( The last sentence is sarcasm, for those that currently have a broken sarcasm meter )

[rabas]

4 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

I just went via that YouTube vid and typed into YT search "2024 Thailand taxes" and there is a whole sub-industry in these 'advices'.

 

Lawfirms? How many of these stand to make money off the situation? 

[Furioso]

If they do start taxing expat pensions I'll just wait and see how much it really costs. If it's less than a thousand Euros/Dollars a year I'll probably stay. However, I will spend less of my hard earned €/$/฿ to make up the difference. 

 

• Fewer restaurants
• Less tipping
• Fewer in country trips
• Less shopping
• Drink more water lol

If it's over a thousand a year I'll consider moving but I think we all need to understand it's not getting cheaper anywhere in the world. 

 

 

[newnative]

59 minutes ago, Morch said:

I think what some (me, for sure) think of is how to go about it - do you ask immigration? Likely they have no idea, or will cause some confusion and mess with visa issues. Ask the RD? Again no assurance there will be a clear answer, and bang you're in their sights. Hire an accountant? They probably don't know much more now, and you just end up paying for nothing (plus possibly the second issue on top). Looking up answers on the net - yeah...well.

 

If one has been doing this (RD reports etc.) for some time now, that's a different situation. For those of us who haven't (for whatever reason), and it's first time dealing with this here - confusing and worrisome.

 

Since there's not a whole lot of clarity on the process, details and how it will be enforced etc. - how much you get worked up over it is a choice.

      As a US citizen, I plan to keep my head down and go about my usual business.  I plan to transfer about $30,000 before the end of the year, in transfers under $10,000 each.  Spouse and I also have money that is already here to draw upon, that shouldn't be subject to taxes.  If we need money from the US at sometime in 2024, I'll transfer the exact amount of my monthly SS payment, and not notify anyone.  If someone from RD ever knocks on my door, I'll remind them the money I sent was shielded from Thai tax by the DTA between Thailand and the US, and plead ignorance if they tell me I should have filed paperwork of some kind.   Perhaps by the time I make any transfers next year things will be better clarified.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, newnative said:

If someone from RD ever knocks on my door, I'll remind them the money I sent was shielded from Thai tax by the DTA between Thailand and the US, and plead ignorance if they tell me I should have filed paperwork of some kind.

 

As they are currently updating the tax filing paperwork to include a Section for income covered by a DTA. In my opinion, there will be an announcement that we will have to file a tax return, even if we owe nothing.

[Dogmatix]

3 hours ago, Misty said:

 

Viewers please note:  AMCHAM Thailand has an excellent tax committee.  Years ago this guy gave a couple of presentations for AMCHAM.  Not only is he no longer an AMCHAM member, but he is also not asked to speak there.

 

I have seen two of his videos recently and he seems like a BS merchant. He also can't read a word of Thai which puts him at a disadvantage in having to rely on translations of complex Thai legal documents.

[Enzian]

So say if I bring into Thailand $50K during a year, but because of major construction expenses, general repairs, lawyer fees and losses for tenants that stopped paying and can hardly be evicted, previous years' depreciation schedules, exemptions of various kinds, on and on, I only had US$20K "taxable income" (on which my tax owed is based), is that $50K money I have already paid taxes on in the US? (Ignoring SS and any other misc.)

[Mike Teavee]

32 minutes ago, Enzian said:

So say if I bring into Thailand $50K during a year, but because of major construction expenses, general repairs, lawyer fees and losses for tenants that stopped paying and can hardly be evicted, previous years' depreciation schedules, exemptions of various kinds, on and on, I only had US$20K "taxable income" (on which my tax owed is based), is that $50K money I have already paid taxes on in the US? (Ignoring SS and any other misc.)

 

If you only had $20K taxable income then it would depend where the other $30K came from. 

 

If it came from savings then there would be no tax on it, however if it came from another income stream (Dividends, Capital Gains, salary for Remote Working, Royalties etc...) then you may (depending on your country's DTA with Thailand) be liable for tax on it. 

 

 

 

[Enzian]

3 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

If it came from savings then there would be no tax on it, however if it came from another income stream (Dividends, Capital Gains, salary for Remote Working, Royalties etc...) then you may (depending on your country's DTA with Thailand) be liable for tax on it.

I appreciate the answer, but because money is fungible how does anyone really know where that other $30K came from? Or it came from where I say it came from, like a combo of SS and savings from previous years, prove me wrong? But the banks break down every item that goes through the accounts, so in that way it's doable. But of course i will pick the items that are to my advantage and ignore others, so it's really what I say.

[Mike Teavee]

9 minutes ago, Enzian said:

I appreciate the answer, but because money is fungible how does anyone really know where that other $30K came from? Or it came from where I say it came from, like a combo of SS and savings from previous years, prove me wrong? But the banks break down every item that goes through the accounts, so in that way it's doable. But of course i will pick the items that are to my advantage and ignore others, so it's really what I say.

The good news is that there was a recent update where they seem to be saying any income "Earned" before 1/1/2024 will be classed as savings so if you can show that your $30K came from money in your account before that date then you should be ok. 

[Enzian]

3 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

so if you can show that your $30K came from money in your account before that date then you should be ok. 

And then how do I "show" that without turning over my bank records and possibly my tax return to the Thai bureaucrats? Understand I'm not trying to argue with you.

[Mike Teavee]

15 minutes ago, Enzian said:

And then how do I "show" that without turning over my bank records and possibly my tax return to the Thai bureaucrats? Understand I'm not trying to argue with you.

The onus is always on the Tax Payer to prove what they're claiming is true, so if asked to prove it,  you will have to show your Bank Records / Tax Return to the Thailand Revenue Department.

 

I mentioned this in another thread, but when I completed my 1st Tax Return this year, one of the things they initially asked for was copies of all statements for all my non-Thai Bank Accounts, when I pointed out that I'd had one of these for 50 years & my UK main account for 39 years they seemed to relent & say they had everything they needed and would be in touch if they needed anything else... 8 months later I've still not received the withheld interest back. 

 

  

[stat]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

The onus is always on the Tax Payer to prove what they're claiming is true, so if asked to prove it,  you will have to show your Bank Records / Tax Return to the Thailand Revenue Department.

 

I mentioned this in another thread, but when I completed my 1st Tax Return this year, one of the things they initially asked for was copies of all statements for all my non-Thai Bank Accounts, when I pointed out that I'd had one of these for 50 years & my UK main account for 39 years they seemed to relent & say they had everything they needed and would be in touch if they needed anything else... 8 months later I've still not received the withheld interest back. 

 

  

Thanks for your post! They really asked for comlete history of your bank accounts or "just" for one year? Thanks!

[TheAppletons]

3 hours ago, Enzian said:

And then how do I "show" that without turning over my bank records and possibly my tax return to the Thai bureaucrats? Understand I'm not trying to argue with you.

 

 What you don't do is take tax advice from drunken expats on an anonymous public forum.

Edited November 11, 2023 by TheAppletons
Just because

[Mike Teavee]

9 minutes ago, stat said:

Thanks for your post! They really asked for comlete history of your bank accounts or "just" for one year? Thanks!

TBH They were telling my GF what they needed which she was translating for me & whilst normally her English is very good (she has a degree in computing), when she's in a stressful situation she sometimes struggles a bit. 

 

She said they'd asked for copies of all statements from my UK/SG accounts (as they did with my Thai accounts despite nothing before 2021 being relevant for what I was claiming) & I told her to tell them that was simply not possible as I'd had my accounts for so long & besides anything before me becoming fully tax resident in Thailand in 2020 would be irrelevant.

 

She told them this & said that they'd said they needed it all, I repeated that this simply wasn't possible & ask her to ask them again what they really needed...  After her asking this they said they had everything they needed & would be in touch if they needed more information (they haven't been). 

 

What would make sense to me is them wanting to see my Non-Thai bank account statements for they years I was reclaiming for (2021/2022) & maybe even the year before, but 2023's statements would be irrelevant until next year & anything before 2020 would be irrelevant as I wasn't spending 180 days in Thailand.... But again, for my 3 Thai accounts they wanted to copies of every single page of my Bank Book from 2018 when I opened the 1st one to the day I filed the Tax Return in Feb 2023.

 

Also didn't understand why they wanted a photo copy of my passport, I understand they want to see the dates when I was in Thailand BUT why would they want photocopies of all of the other countries Visas/Stamps I have in there... Again, I think that they only wanted copies of the pages where I'd entered/left Thailand but were unable to communicate this to me. 

 

[TravelerEastWest]

17 hours ago, stat said:

I think 30% of the "wealthy" expats will leave but as they are probably only 10% of all expats just 3% overall. Of course just my wild guess.

Why would they leave when the LTR visa takes care of the tax problem got mine yesterday and a manager assured me that all was well and not to worry - she was very confident. of course anything can change over time...

 

The visas are easy to get and the BOI treats you politely.

 

Low-income expats who mostly get retirement funds will probably be mostly exempted so it is only those in the middle who will be affected. Which of course is not good...

[rocketboy2]

1 hour ago, TheAppletons said:

 

 What you don't do is take tax advice from drunken expats on an anonymous public forum.

 

But most likely better than a Thai tax advisor or accountant,

( 10,000 new ones last week, they all handed there notice in at MC Donald's / KFC ect. )

Good luck, with the real professionals in Thailand.

I will not be needing there services.

 

[TravelerEastWest]

33 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

 

But most likely better than a Thai tax advisor or accountant,

( 10,000 new ones last week, they all handed there notice in at MC Donald's / KFC ect. )

Good luck, with the real professionals in Thailand.

I will not be needing there services.

 

There are real world-class tax CPAs in Thailand (mostly in Bangkok in large international firms) but they are expensive and will give expert advice light years better than what a nonprofessional will give you. Certainly better than what you will get on the internet in most cases.

[stat]

1 hour ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Why would they leave when the LTR visa takes care of the tax problem got mine yesterday and a manager assured me that all was well and not to worry - she was very confident. of course anything can change over time...

 

The visas are easy to get and the BOI treats you politely.

 

Low-income expats who mostly get retirement funds will probably be mostly exempted so it is only those in the middle who will be affected. Which of course is not good...

Thanks for your post! So far "only" 1500 LTR wealthy pensioner Visa have been applied for. In my opinion there are some reasonable doubts whether LTR will shield you 100%. But you are right, if the LTR visa shields you, one has a workable solution, however it seems to be tricky to prove the 80K income if they come from cap gains according to their team. In some countries cap gains do not show as income in the official documents as they are taxed at source (bank level). Some people might not feel very happy to show a 7 figure wealth to any government.

 

BOI also stated to me in an email that you are income tax exempted with LTR, however I doubt they could do much if RD decided to tax the LTR holders anyway.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by stat

[TravelerEastWest]

1 minute ago, stat said:

Thanks for your post! So far "only" 1500 LTR wealthy pensioner Visa have been applied for. In my opinion there are some reasonable doubts whether LTR will shield you 100%. But you are right, if the LTR visa shields you, one has a workable solution, however it seems to be tricky to prove the 80K income if they come from cap gains according to their team. In some countries cap gains do not show as income in the official documents as they are taxed at source (bank level). Some people might not feel very happy to show a 7 figure wealth to any government.

 

BOI also stated to me in an email that you are income tax exempted with LTR, however I doubt they could do much if RD decided to tax the LTR holders anyway.

 

 

They were absolutely certain and they convinced me - but things can always change...

 

They are looking for a steady stream of income so you in theory could use capital gains but you likely have to show a good track record and be persistent. They are a bright team and you can talk to them.

 

I don't think the Revenue Department is able to override the BOI but political infighting is always interesting and we can't predict exactly what would happen.

 

But as a Thai friend told me at dinner yesterday after my visa the BOI is in the business of promoting Thailand to investors and they are like salespeople, not police. overall as others have stated a good experience.

 

 

 

[jacko45k]

On 11/9/2023 at 8:00 AM, Mike Lister said:

I don't know why anyone would want to do that. If a retiree has made all the plans to move, this announcement doesn't change much at all and is no reason why they should undo all their planning. And since the tax free window between now and 31 December is still open, that's all the more reason why plans shouldn't be cancelled.

No different than my early plans many years ago....based on a minimum of 5% p.a. interest on bank deposits, and 50 baht/£!

[JimGant]

9 hours ago, stat said:

however I doubt they could do much if RD decided to tax the LTR holders anyway.

 

I'd put all my money on BoI. The LTR visas are their pet project, and if they've promised LTR visa holders that their foreign income won't be taxed, they'll certainly have higher horse power to back up that contract should RD pull a fast one. Why? Do a Google and note who they work for: Office of the Prime Minister.

 

BoI has bigger fish to fry, with talk about not parsing out income from remittances and just taxing the whole cash flow. That ain't going to happen, as by taxing capital inflows, Foreign Direct Investment would die -- and FDI is BoI's main reason for existence. Thus, the only logical way of taxing just income is to -- just tax income as in occurs abroad, whether remitted or not. So, if your future holds sending a pile of capital to Thailand to buy a condo, I wouldn't worry too much that that will have any tax implications. IMO.

[ikke1959]

21 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Once again, the Thai workforce is about 32 million people, of that number, about 6% pay tax via a PAYE equivalent. The remainder OF THE WORKFORCE may or may  file a tax return and may or may not pay tax. Most of the remainder are either self employed or work as a limited company. The tax deductions and allowances for the self employed are very very generous, a person can turnover 1 million in sales and pay no tax, I know, my wife does.

I know tax in Thailand is very low,but I know also that the RD have no clue who is earning what and we had an example a few months back when a official only claimed he earned 1 million but in reality it was 50 times more... As long as there is no control  and the RD doesn't know who is doing what everybody can fill in what they want...In my country every business needs an accountant, and they fill in the tax  for and once in a few years time the tax people come and check everything to see if there is no fraud. Here in Thailand there is no control whatso ever, and many don't fill in a tax form not even to get a reduction and many are paid without tax paying.. It is all outdated the whole system, but now they want the foreigners to pay for their own shortcomings

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

I know tax in Thailand is very low,but I know also that the RD have no clue who is earning what and we had an example a few months back when a official only claimed he earned 1 million but in reality it was 50 times more... As long as there is no control  and the RD doesn't know who is doing what everybody can fill in what they want...In my country every business needs an accountant, and they fill in the tax  for and once in a few years time the tax people come and check everything to see if there is no fraud. Here in Thailand there is no control whatso ever, and many don't fill in a tax form not even to get a reduction and many are paid without tax paying.. It is all outdated the whole system, but now they want the foreigners to pay for their own shortcomings

Yes I agree. One of the problems is that 48% of the Thai economy is grey, unreported untaxed income, I don't know how the government can accurately estimate anything when only 50% of the economy is being reported.

[discrete]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

 

I'd put all my money on BoI. The LTR visas are their pet project, and if they've promised LTR visa holders that their foreign income won't be taxed, they'll certainly have higher horse power to back up that contract should RD pull a fast one. Why? Do a Google and note who they work for: Office of the Prime Minister.

 

BoI has bigger fish to fry, with talk about not parsing out income from remittances and just taxing the whole cash flow. That ain't going to happen, as by taxing capital inflows, Foreign Direct Investment would die -- and FDI is BoI's main reason for existence. Thus, the only logical way of taxing just income is to -- just tax income as in occurs abroad, whether remitted or not. So, if your future holds sending a pile of capital to Thailand to buy a condo, I wouldn't worry too much that that will have any tax implications. IMO.

Lets hope you are right. Next year I plan to bring in a large lump of capital (proceeds of sale of a property with no capital gains tax issues) and invest inside Thailand ...  if they want to treat that transfer as income, it will not happen.

[Puccini]

17 minutes ago, discrete said:

Lets hope you are right. Next year I plan to bring in a large lump of capital (proceeds of sale of a property with no capital gains tax issues) and invest inside Thailand ...  if they want to treat that transfer as income, it will not happen.

 

The problem is you will only find out what, if anything, happens after bringing the money into Thailand. It's an awkward situation.

[StayinThailand2much]

23 hours ago, Morch said:

Since there's not a whole lot of clarity on the process, details and how it will be enforced etc. - how much you get worked up over it is a choice.

 

Not really worried. I expect it to be messy, though. Should it have implications in regards to visas, I'm ready to leave. Also, not receiving a pension yet, and while Thailand was on the list of countries to have my pension transferred to, it now is off the list.

Edited November 12, 2023 by StayinThailand2much

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

 

Not really worried. I expect it to be messy, though. Should it have implications in regards to visas, I'm ready to leave. Also, not receiving a pension yet, and while Thailand was on the list of countries to have my pension transferred to, it now is off the list.

 

I hear you, but for many of us there are families, houses, lives here. Not so easy (or even doable) to move. Maybe applies to older single guys too - can move if have to, but not that easy/smooth. It all depends how far this will go and how it will be implemented - we don't know this yet. Even if they lay out exactly how it's supposed to work, a fair chance things will be different in reality, plus so much variety with regard to people's situation...

[StayinThailand2much]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

It all depends how far this will go and how it will be implemented - we don't know this yet. Even if they lay out exactly how it's supposed to work, a fair chance things will be different in reality, plus so much variety with regard to people's situation...

 

Yes, we won't know until next year, or even 2025.

[The Cyclist]

19 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

 

Yes, we won't know until next year, or even 2025.

 

 

Yet on this thread alone we are on page 23 and nearly 700 posts, filled with posters claiming all sorts of nonsense and making plans to flee Thailand.

 

And then head over to the other thread, which is even bigger, and has even more nonsense of what will happen come on 01 Jan 2024.

 

The only fact I can tell you about the 01 Jan 2024 is that I will have a hangover from hell.