You don't strangle cows or pigs and you don't want the animals to be too stressed during the act of slaughtering since it will degrade the quality of the meat.

Incidently, kosher / halal slaughter is less clean in terms of blood inside the animal - when it is designed to be the opposite. Go figure...

Suegha,

I suppose that first of all I'd ask you to tka enote of the fact that I'm proposing this in a more formal manner than usual, by starting with your user name, and properly presented.

Do NOT give mmt the benefit of any argument.

He has crossed the line too many times to even deserve any form of rational reply.

I know you would be inclined for forgiveness, but he is not.

He's an idiot, a stupid mofo, and although he has had his moments, and I've often hoped for the best, they have been too far and few between to deserve antagonising you or anybody else or, for that matter deserving of your or anyone elses attention.

For that is all he is: an attention seeker.

Bye Bye MMT. I've wanted to see you grow into becoming a sociable being, but you are not.

I say this, as a parting gesture, not to draw attention to the links you postedl: That was all, however sick, that was all part of the game.

But there were inevitazbly reactions. And you tried to defend the violent promotion of the slaughters.

Go and eat babies in whatever the part of the world you are living in.

bUT LEAVE US THE F* ALONE.

2 baht.

F* it.

2 saitiang.

Suegha,

I suppose that first of all I'd ask you to tka enote of the fact that I'm proposing this in a more formal manner than usual, by starting with your user name, and properly presented.

Do NOT give mmt the benefit of any argument.

He has crossed the line too many times to even deserve any form of rational reply.

I know you would be inclined for forgiveness, but he is not.

He's an idiot, a stupid mofo, and although he has had his moments, and I've often hoped for the best, they have been too far and few between to deserve antagonising you or anybody else or, for that matter deserving of your or anyone elses attention.

For that is all he is: an attention seeker.

Bye Bye MMT. I've wanted to see you grow into becoming a sociable being, but you are not.

I say this, as a parting gesture, not to draw attention to the links you postedl: That was all, however sick, that was all part of the game.

But there were inevitazbly reactions. And you tried to defend the violent promotion of the slaughters.

Go and eat babies in whatever the part of the world you are living in.

bUT LEAVE US THE F* ALONE.

2 baht.

F* it.

2 saitiang.

Nice one kayo!

Thanks, for the concern guys - but actually telling me not to click links is like telling me not to think of a pink elephant (no similarity intended, kayo) - it's the first thing I do.

Funnily enough, I'm probably the least squeamish of any of you - I've been involved in animal rights since I was a teenager & have seen countless photos of cruelty & have seen some pretty horrible things in real life too.

However, those links did sadden me greatly. Firstly because man is still inhumane enough to treat any sentient being like that in the run-up to its slaughter & consumption. Yes, I do object to that treatment for any animal. It's why I won't eat foie gras, veal or KFC, for instance.

Secondly, because some sick (Western) fcuks think that the suffering of these animals is entertainment. That is beyond words, I can't express my hatred for people like that. I hate them far more than those who actually consume the meat.

Thirdly, I think that the posting of those images on here was largely to upset & provoke a response from me. That someone would want to upset me that much, or take pleasure from my anticipated rage saddens me, also.

From an evolutionary stand point, chickens, pigs, cows and sheep have done very well from becoming human's main meat supply.

They are far more numerous now than if we did not raise them for food.

In fact, if we stopped eating them, they would more than likely be extinct within a couple of generations as they couldn't survive in the wild.

Well, if they were cows and pigs, would it be much better then? Anything to do with it?

Cows and pigs are not man's best freind - living with and helping each other for 1,000s of years.

Secondly, because some sick (Western) fcuks think that the suffering of these animals is entertainment. That is beyond words, I can't express my hatred for people like that. I hate them far more than those who actually consume the meat.

Thirdly, I think that the posting of those images on here was largely to upset & provoke a response from me. That someone would want to upset me that much, or take pleasure from my anticipated rage saddens me, also.

NR, are you saying this some sick (fcuks) is me and I think the suffering of these animals is entertainment?

And you think the posting of those images was to upset you? (I deliberately try to warn you for not wanting to upset you)

I am terribly shocked! My heart actually palpitates!

Have everyone here actually forgottened the original post? Have I read the OP wrongly? Did the OP mentioned that even if the animals had to suffer to provide food, it won't stop him from eating them? (not critizing the OP) Now english is not my first language so maybe I mis-understood the meaning. If that is the case, I admit I have been acting stupid.

I don't have an answer to what is right or wrong, what we can eat and what not. Which is why I even bothered to start discussing it here. Maybe my communication skills were just too bad.

So what do people say? Is it that cows and pigs are ok to be eaten and dogs and cats are not? When people say kill them humanely, how? It is easy to talk, but how?!!!! You know it won't happen when we are talking about mass production of meat, don't you?

As a person who feels guilty even occasionally killing flies and mosquitos when in a bad mood, the responses saddened me a little. But what is the point of saying how much one loves animals? Most human beings I see do not give a shit about animals' feelings!

Thanks Kayo for the post. Have you been enjoying coke again?

And yes babies! Why not? If they are aroy!

Well, if they were cows and pigs, would it be much better then? Anything to do with it?

Cows and pigs are not man's best freind - living with and helping each other for 1,000s of years.

Oh yes, ask those who try every way to poison the soi dogs if they think of them as friends!

Friends or not is just your personal opinion. Some people like pigs too.

And you didn't answer my another post.

tbh im sick of this. So many generalisations, people trying to provoke, and ill informed comments.

Im not saying i know everything either, or that i am perfect or better in any way. Those pictures did not shock me, saddened me yes, but i have seen similar before, even watched a documentary on it. I find it bizarre that some people become outraged by seeing images of cats or dogs etc in terrible situations leading up to being killed but dont think the same when it comes to chickens or pigs or cows etc. If you think all farm animals are treated better, then think again. The double standards people have makes my mind boggle. As I said, do what you want, but applying double standards because you view one animal as a 'pet' and another food is just silly.

As for

You don't strangle cows or pigs and you don't want the animals to be too stressed during the act of slaughtering since it will degrade the quality of the meat

Well, many animals raised for meat are kept in disgusting conditions inside factory farms, never seeing daylight, sun or rain. Pigs killed for meat live only five or six months but it takes a battery of drugs to keep them alive. From birth until death they’re given powerful antibiotics in a desperate attempt to control the diseases that run rife in the filth of factory farms. Chicken rearing is the most intensified and automated type of animal production there is. Chicks are crammed into foul smelling windowless sheds - often 40,000 in each. The baby birds are bred to grow too fast and are pumped full of drugs to reach slaughter size in just 41 days. When they are killed the birds eyes are still blue and they cheep - chicks in an obese adult body. Most birds become crippled as their legs cannot support their body weight. Turkeys are almost all factory farmed - as are ducks - water birds that never get to swim or fly in their short, sad lives. <-this is just some well known information i picked from the net. Havent even mentioned what goes on at the slaughter house here. There is more, of course, but im not up for being verbally bashed, just look for yourselves, or continue living in lala land on the subject. Its up to you.

From an evolutionary stand point, chickens, pigs, cows and sheep have done very well from becoming human's main meat supply.

They are far more numerous now than if we did not raise them for food.

In fact, if we stopped eating them, they would more than likely be extinct within a couple of generations as they couldn't survive in the wild

honestly......What? MInd boggles once again. Eat meat or animals will become extinct!

Sick Vegi fcuks!

UG, I dont know why you said that, but of course i find the comment offensive. Until now I have tried to keep calm on the subject as I always do, but the generalisations are irritating. I would like to know why you came up with that statement? I am 'vegi' but why am I a 'sick vegi &lt;deleted&gt;'? or is this more of a sweeping general bigoted comment towards all people who choose not to eat meat?

As for mmt, its well known you are an antagonist. Any valid point you attempt to make is nulified by the blatent desire to provoke for provications sake. I find it hard to take you seriously, sad really.

As for mmt, its well known you are an antagonist. Any valid point you attempt to make is nulified by the blatent desire to provoke for provications sake. I find it hard to take you seriously, sad really.

Chicken rearing is the most intensified and automated type of animal production there is. Chicks are crammed into foul smelling windowless sheds - often 40,000 in each. The baby birds are bred to grow too fast and are pumped full of drugs to reach slaughter size in just 41 days. When they are killed the birds eyes are still blue and they cheep - chicks in an obese adult body. Most birds become crippled as their legs cannot support their body weight.

My uncle & my wife's brother both own sizable chicken farms. What you say is true. 24 hour per day feed cycle. 45 day batch rotation. 16kg's of antibiotics, steroids and growth hormone per 2,500 units.

Makes you think twice before indulging in KFC - but I do still eat it very occasionaly.

meemiathai,

No, I didn't mean you were the sick Western &lt;deleted&gt; using this for entertainment. That honour is reserved for the idiots that put up these sites - particularly PWEETA (yes, I've known of their existence for some time) who make a spoof out of all this cruelty. They are truly sick. How is any of this funny? No matter what your point of view on the meat debate, or eating companion animals; suffering of any sentient being is not funny. Again, that was a rhetorical question directed at the people who put this up on the web for entertainment.

Yes, I do think that you wanted to get a response, possibly primarily from me. If I wanted someone to look at something, I would make a statement singling them out telling them not to look, as you did with me.

How should I do it then? I thought those photos might upset you so I tried to warn you and that's it. There is no way to stop you from looking at them then.

It seems to me most people cannot face reality. When reality is pointed out, people do not know how to deal with it. And start complaining about me. Ever thought why politicians have to lie? They have to coz human beings simply cannot deal with reality. What was it I posted was wrong or offensive?

And eek, do you think people are going to give a shit to the sufferings of the animals which they think belong to their food. Do you not think by going a little extreme could probably help them see something?

If people just try to answer my questions directly probably they will see how contradicting their beliefs are. But they won't coz they can see that they are going to contradict themselves. And no I am not saying what is wrong what is right.

And don't tell me that you people think I will eat dogs and cats!

mmt, its not the points that you make that I take issue with, its how you make them. Shock tactics are often not the best approach, however, as you say, may sometimes work. But, mostly people tune out with shock tactics and the message is blocked.

The way you present things, it is often hard to work out what you are trying to say. It comes across as sensationalising rather than trying to make a point. I also have the impression that your points raised are for the benifit of arguments sake but without giving any stance on where your stand on the subject. It clouds your posts for me, as i see no consistancy in opinion.

This is only my opinion from what posts I have read of yours. This may not be 'you' at all, but it is how you have come across to me. It is not ment as a negative judgement, just an observation.

Lamb chops vs boring veggies. There's no contest as far as I'm concerned.

or this

As for

You don't strangle cows or pigs and you don't want the animals to be too stressed during the act of slaughtering since it will degrade the quality of the meat

Well, many animals raised for meat are kept in disgusting conditions inside factory farms, never seeing daylight, sun or rain. Pigs killed for meat live only five or six months but it takes a battery of drugs to keep them alive. From birth until death they’re given powerful antibiotics in a desperate attempt to control the diseases that run rife in the filth of factory farms. Chicken rearing is the most intensified and automated type of animal production there is. Chicks are crammed into foul smelling windowless sheds - often 40,000 in each. The baby birds are bred to grow too fast and are pumped full of drugs to reach slaughter size in just 41 days. When they are killed the birds eyes are still blue and they cheep - chicks in an obese adult body. Most birds become crippled as their legs cannot support their body weight. Turkeys are almost all factory farmed - as are ducks - water birds that never get to swim or fly in their short, sad lives. <-this is just some well known information i picked from the net. Havent even mentioned what goes on at the slaughter house here. There is more, of course, but im not up for being verbally bashed, just look for yourselves, or continue living in lala land on the subject. Its up to you.

Perhaps unlike you I have relatives and familymembers that raise animals for food and fur (not skin), so I happend to know a thing or two regarding the subject. The usage of 'powerfull antibiotics' is far more rampant in US and third world emerging countries (like thailand), than several european countries. But there is, granted, overusage of them in europe too in several countries. But atleast it's getting better. It's pretty much a heritage from the 60ies when massconsumption and massproduction farms was really starting to get widespread. But again, your picture isn't a true generalisation - it's a limited picture from some massproducing countries.

But my point still stands in the quoted part - and your post really didn't counter it.

But for me appaling conditions in some 'superfarms' isn't a basis to stop eating meat. It's a basis to work to improve the animals living conditions. And meat from well-treated animals do taste better.

The way you present things, it is often hard to work out what you are trying to say. It comes across as sensationalising rather than trying to make a point. I also have the impression that your points raised are for the benifit of arguments sake but without giving any stance on where your stand on the subject. It clouds your posts for me, as i see no consistancy in opinion.

This is only my opinion from what posts I have read of yours. This may not be 'you' at all, but it is how you have come across to me. It is not ment as a negative judgement, just an observation.

Exactly what I am trying to do. I am not trying to make a point. As I say I do not know what is right or wrong. They are for arguments' or discussions' sake.

One point I did try to make however or a question I did try to ask was, if the OP said the sufferings of the animals is not an issue for him in deciding whether to eat meat or not, does that mean what they were doing to those dogs and cats were OK?

Again I am not trying to critize the OP.

From an evolutionary stand point, chickens, pigs, cows and sheep have done very well from becoming human's main meat supply.

They are far more numerous now than if we did not raise them for food.

In fact, if we stopped eating them, they would more than likely be extinct within a couple of generations as they couldn't survive in the wild

honestly......What? MInd boggles once again. Eat meat or animals will become extinct!

[

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. It's not just my view-point, but, biologists too. I would think that it is self evident.

There are 2 gen concerns regarding what will happen with farm animals if we were to stop eating them:

That the will either overrun the earth or become extinct.

Source: upc-online.org

Farm animals will not overrun the earth if we stop eating them because we will no longer intentionally breed them as we do now. Parent flocks and herds are deliberately maintained by artificial insemination, genetic selection, bizarre lighting schedules and other manipulations to force them to produce billions of offspring each year. This inflated population will fade as people stop eating animal products. In time, as David Gabbe states in Why Do Vegetarians Eat Like That?, "farm animals could be left to fend for themselves; some would make out fine, others would struggle to keep from becoming extinct. But, like all animals (except humans), they would adjust their numbers in accordance with the conditions around them."

In the meantime, we have to remember that we, not they, are responsible for their predicament. We have an obligation to find ways to ease the transitional period for these animals.

Q: Farm animals have been bred for domestication. Haven't they lost their natural instincts? They can't survive on their own, can they? If we stop providing for them, won't they die of starvation and failure to reproduce?

On the one hand we're afraid that farm animals will overrun the earth. On the other hand we worry that they'll become extinct. Feral chickens, pigs, and other farm animals ("feral" refers to domesticated animals who have become self-sustaining again) successfully resume their natural activities given the chance: they forage, graze, mate, raise their young, socialize and get along very well without humans. Farm animals are much more autonomous and resilient than is commonly supposed. Otherwise, it is better for creatures afflicted with human- created defects not to be born. People who think it is all right to imprison animals in genetically-impaired bodies and who then get testy about their becoming extinct, are indulging in cynicism and sentimentality. Call their bluff and move on to other issues.

I don't think it's realistic to think that people will (in general) stop eating meat. It's just not going to happen. And what about food for household pets? Dogs prefer meat in their diets & cats need it to survive. Pet foods (rightly or wrongly, particularly due to the recent health scares) are a billion dollar industry.

Realistically, I think the best we can do is make the farming and slaughter of animals as free-range & humane as possible. Laws need to be enacted, worldwide governing the treatment of animals kept for/bred for consumption & penalties for breaking these laws need to be severe. There also need to be new laws regarding humane slaughter. It's very unlikely to happen, but I think it's a more realistic & achievable goal than getting the whole world (& their pets) to go veggie.

I agree NR.

My quote was purely in reply to Sir Burrs statement.

I have never been against peoples personal food choices, but I also wish for a turn around in how food is mass produced. I take the subject quite seriously, so of course generalisations and insults affect me. Its hard not to react passionately.

I by no means have the answers to this. I can only do what I personally believe is helpful and in line with my beliefs, and hope others believe in finding ways of obtaining meat that are less cruel to animals.

good lord HUMPHREY!!!! Did I just notice "Cambridge" in "your locations"?

I fancy some bear meat.

I think Hump Free Beer will be eating Kabseh, Shish Tawook or Shawerma at the moment Kayo

Living on a grotty Aramco compound - but yesterday the Tamimi restaurant opened a shawarma stand. I'll pop down there soon and get a couple (mutton and veggie) for the Iraq -vs- Saudi soccer match.

And my official address is Cambridge ENGLAND (as well as Pattaya)

Realistically, I think the best we can do is make the farming and slaughter of animals as free-range & humane as possible.

My wife has friends up-country who tried a free-range chicken farm. Before the current avian flu outbreaks they lost the lot to some similar disease brought in by wild birds.

Where I am now in Saudi is the largest of the local closed-range breeders. A Brit who runs it was telling me aboiut his million-bird enclosures and the lengths they go to keep them disease-free.

The first couple were doing what they felt to be ethical, and lost a lot of money. The second guy is just running a business and raking it in. It's a difficult world for all, and difficult decisions have to be made.

Many years ago, when still working in the UK, I supervised the building of an extension to a slaughter-house and packing plant in the West Midlands - Shropshire if I remember right - and was horrified by the methods used. The chickens were still alive, with necks placed in loops in an overhead conveyor, while they were steamed and plucked. Then killed and cleaned. When I asked why, I was told that the feathers come out much more easily and cleanly from a live bird than a dead one - even if dead only a few seconds. So, that's the way it was done.

Sick Vegi fcuks!

UG, I dont know why you said that, but of course i find the comment offensive. Until now I have tried to keep calm on the subject as I always do, but the generalisations are irritating. I would like to know why you came up with that statement? I am 'vegi' but why am I a 'sick vegi &lt;deleted&gt;'? or is this more of a sweeping general bigoted comment towards all people who choose not to eat meat?

Actually, I have nothing against vegetarians that aren't on their high horse. That was directed only towards the cats and dogs are legit food sources crowd.

Since we are all complaining about who is right & wrong. Here is a well balnaced meal. Dinner time now. yum yum

Blaster.

Since we are all complaining about who is right & wrong. Here is a well balnaced meal. Dinner time now. yum yum

Blaster.

Agreed.

Enjoy that lovely healthy meal with an equally healthy glass of red wine. Perfect.

Since we are all complaining about who is right & wrong. Here is a well balnaced meal. Dinner time now. yum yum

Blaster.

Those potatoes were alive too man.

UG, just a quick point: you do realise that the PWEETA website at least isn't run by veggies or animal rights activists, don't you? I don't know about the other one, but I think it unlikely. PWEETA is a genuine organisation set up to counteract tree hugging animal righters like PETA through spoofing them.

BTW, that is NOT my idea of PETA & their work. Like many activists, I think they are often misguided & don't research cultures of countries they go into very well, but essentially I think they raise points in a way the public can relate to, which is good.

Living on a grotty Aramco compound - but yesterday the Tamimi restaurant opened a shawarma stand. I'll pop down there soon and get a couple (mutton and veggie) for the Iraq -vs- Saudi soccer match.

And my official address is Cambridge ENGLAND (as well as Pattaya)

Iraq have just scored - I'm enjoying my mutton shawarma - all is right with the world. Will my Saudi colleagues be pissed tomorrow - you betcha!

will you bring some shawama next time you come back to Cambridge?

There are beers in the fridge, just behind the Grafton Center/Anglia Polytechnic.