Taxation of Ex-Pats pensions etc.

[koolkarl]

If you were living in Thailand more than 180 days during 2023 and you received funds from outside Thailand, this amount is supposed to be included in a Thai tax return and filed by March or April 2024.  This carries on year after year until changed.  I believe any pensions sent into Thailand will be accounted for on the Thai tax return for double taxation.  Because of this CRS agreement, eventually Thailand will make you report all world income on your Thai tax return.  And in return, you will still not be a landed immigrant, no health care,  just a 1 year tourist.  Is that worth staying here?

[rocketboy2]

Oops. 

[Expat68]

On 11/25/2023 at 9:01 AM, WilliamSmits said:

I am optimistic and think retirees will not get taxed on money transfered into Thailand. 

Alternatively, there are lots of ways to get money into Thailand without showing up in my Thai bank account.

(like taking in out of ATM with foreign card, etc. etc)

Just keeping 800.000 in an account is enough for immigration.

You wil lose more with that than paying tax

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

Incorrect as old loophole still stands for funds earned or pension from tax year 2022 brought in to Thailand on year 2023.

2024 is when this no longer works.

 

Not incorrect, that money still has to be declared on the tax return, even though it may or may not be taxed, based on the filers assessable income level.

 

I receive pensions from two countries, one is exempt by treaty, the other is taxable, if my assessable income exceeds the amount of deductions and allowances. Historically it has not although sometimes I have paid small amounts of tax, the point is, that money has to be shown on the tax return, otherwise the return is incomplete and potentially fraudulent. I show the treaty exempt income as disregarded income but I do declare it. The fact that practise has been not to tax transfers, is a different issue from te tax declaration.  

[Expat68]

On 11/25/2023 at 9:01 AM, WilliamSmits said:

I am optimistic and think retirees will not get taxed on money transfered into Thailand. 

Alternatively, there are lots of ways to get money into Thailand without showing up in my Thai bank account.

(like taking in out of ATM with foreign card, etc. etc)

Just keeping 800.000 in an account is enough for immigration.

You wil lose more with that than paying tax

[Ben Zioner]

3 minutes ago, Expat68 said:

You wil lose more with that than paying tax

Can you elaborate? you reckon that using ATMs will shave off 25% or 30% off he funds withdrawn? Most of us will be in these brackets, which are never readjusted for inflation BTW.

[Expat68]

11 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Can you elaborate? you reckon that using ATMs will shave off 25% or 30% off he funds withdrawn? Most of us will be in these brackets, which are never readjusted for inflation BTW.

Where do you get 25%- 30% from?

[Presnock]

I continue to regularly see questions about the taxation by the Thai govt of US pensions - I queried a foreign tax

advisor concerning this question.  They informed me that even though the US and Thai governments have a 

tax agreement, legally the Thai govt could tax the pension funds sent into Thailand.  They said that any taxes

paid to the Thai government from pension sent into Thailand, then the US will refund the same number of dollars

taken out of those funds by the Thais.  Previously in this forum someone provided the tax brackets for Thai taxes

and it indicated that the lowest tax bracket begins at 150,000 and I think that was in US dollars so if one is on a

US pension, they probably would not have to pay any taxes to the Thai government.  Until the Thai government

comes out with the final approved law on the taxes, we are all wasting time even thinking about it.  If they do

tax us anyway, it might mean that they are killing the proverbial goose laying the golden eggs.  But, since this is TIT...

[Old Croc]

8 minutes ago, Presnock said:

tax brackets for Thai taxes

and it indicated that the lowest tax bracket begins at 150,000 and I think that was in US dollars

Why would you assume Thai tax rates are stated in US dollars?

[Road Warrior]

On 11/25/2023 at 8:47 AM, LittleBear57 said:

There doesn't seem any real info around, but apparently this will come into effect on January 1st 2024, not far away at all. Does anyone actually know what the Taxation rate is in Thailand and is there a personal allowance free of Tax like in the UK.? It's possible Ex Pats will be able to claim their pensions tax free if you can prove tax has already been paid at country of origin. Some things are difficult to prove. I rely on income from a rented property and a small private pension and to be honest paying another 10% tax here would probably be the final straw even though I have a wife and child here. 

 

I was going to buy a car here soon to replace my old truck however I may have to put that on hold until there is some clarification on the issue. I could bring some money over before January to avoid the potential issue of the truck purchase.

 

Another case of Thailand killing the Golden Goose not satisfied with us spending our pensions here they want more.

 

What are your thoughts?     i agree with your comments 100%  --- mike

 

On 11/25/2023 at 4:38 PM, MeaMaximaCulpa said:

You may want to think again...

 

[AAArdvark]

On 11/25/2023 at 9:07 PM, Havefunme said:

Why don't you Google your treaty with Thailand see what it says in America they can't tax our social security or our pension so Americans are good its that simple if your able to read English 

A little bit of punctuation would go a long way to help us understand your English. 

[skatewash]

On 11/26/2023 at 8:33 AM, mfd101 said:

Why would you be (already) using such an expensive transfer method (poor exchange rates + atm costs)?

If using a Charles Schwab account there are no fees to the customer that are not fully reimbursed.  Also, uses the MasterCard daily exchange rate for Thailand/USA which is a decent rate.  This is the way I bring money into Thailand.

[skatewash]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

You wil lose more with that than paying tax

Not true if the customer has a Charles Schwab account.  There are no costs associated with withdrawals in Thailand that are not fully reimbursed and the exchange rate is the US/Thailand daily rate established by MasterCard.

[Old Croc]

There seems to be 3 types of opinion regarding this proposed taxation.

 

Optimistic - It's fine, read it again, it won't affect our money.

Pessimistic - they'll double tax my pension and I'll be out of here.

Agnostic - TIT. It's impossible to know for sure what will happen. 

[Geir Rasch]

On 11/25/2023 at 2:53 PM, LittleBear57 said:

Thanks I must have missed the original article, and I knew the UK has a double tax agreement with Thailand. Wouldn't put it past the Thais to tax you and then make it difficult for you to claim back.

No offence taken.

I think that most tax treaties say that only Thai government can tax pension brought to Thailand during a tax year for expat staying 180 days or more during a tax year. So when you pay tax to Thailand your home country must reduce tax by deducting your taxable income with what has been taxed in Thailand.

[skatewash]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

You wil lose more with that than paying tax

Not true if Charles Schwab customer which reimburses all fees associated with the withdrawal.

[proton]

1 hour ago, koolkarl said:

If you were living in Thailand more than 180 days during 2023 and you received funds from outside Thailand, this amount is supposed to be included in a Thai tax return and filed by March or April 2024.  This carries on year after year until changed.  I believe any pensions sent into Thailand will be accounted for on the Thai tax return for double taxation.  Because of this CRS agreement, eventually Thailand will make you report all world income on your Thai tax return.  And in return, you will still not be a landed immigrant, no health care,  just a 1 year tourist.  Is that worth staying here?

Transfer to wife/family and yourself under the limit and bring cash in or use ATM no way I am paying these buggers tax on pensions and savings

[mfd101]

13 minutes ago, Geir Rasch said:

So when you pay tax to Thailand your home country must reduce tax by deducting your taxable income with what has been taxed in Thailand.

Good luck with that.

[crazykopite]

The U.K. has an agreement on taxation with Thailand therefore like me you shouldn’t be paying Taxes in Thailand from your pensions . I’ve been paying U.K. Tax for the past 18+ years although I live in Thailand on retirement there is little I can do as it’s deducted each month at source from my 3 pensions if for some reason they do I’m off to split my time between Thailand and the Philippines where my OAP will be updated to todays current level as it’s frozen in Thailand but not the Philippines!

[crazykopite]

13 minutes ago, proton said:

Transfer to wife/family and yourself under the limit and bring cash in or use ATM no way I am paying these buggers tax on pensions and savings

If you have money sat in a U.K. bank bring in enough to last six months that’s my plan as I am confident it will be such a mess that as per usual they will do a u turn on it when it comes to retired farangs ! there after the Thai wealthy as well as nomads who don’t pay tax on overseas income due to this loophole 

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

Where do you get 25%- 30% from?

From your uneducated statement saying that the use of ATMs will cost more than the tax it would save. In my case I would save 30% of tax on the first million and half I might withdraw and 25% on the subsequent million. 

 

But in all likelihood I wan't save anything as I have an LTR visa.

[Expat68]

1 hour ago, proton said:

Transfer to wife/family and yourself under the limit and bring cash in or use ATM no way I am paying these buggers tax on pensions and savings

My wife and I have income from UK, we fill in tax return every year, so I can prove

[Robin]

What about "Capital"   For example:  I sell my house in UK and have a good profit, exempt of CGT as it is my 'nominated dwelling'   If I then try to bring this capital into Thailand, say to buy a house here, will I be subject to Thai Tax.

That would make the whole idea of retirement in Thailand a non-tarter, and perhaps for many others

I thought Sreetha was a builder/developer. 

Wasn't the original idea of Retirement Visas to help sell more property to Retirees?

[Robin]

More:...

I decided not to wait for end of year but bring some money into Thailand now, so aske my bank in Singapore to transfer money to my account at Kasikorn.

1.  Singapore bank questioned why I was moving the money and when I explained the reason told me that their information was that this tax was not going to happen.  

I went ahead with the transfer and it was held up by Kasikorn until I had telephoned a umber in Bangkok and explained why I wanted to money and agreed to the exchange rate offered by Kasikorn. ( Reasons; Living expenses and medical expenses) not questioned.

Yesterday I visited my branch of Kasikorn and spoke with Assistant manager.  She had not heard of this proposed tax on incoming transfers, but did tell me that KBank has a policy of questioning any incoming transfer above  200,000 baht.

Regardless of the outcome of this tax, for this year at least I now have enough to live on

After that I can hopefully, rely on wife's income from beauty shop and growing rice (not taxed, yet!)

 

 

[topt]

2 minutes ago, Robin said:

She had not heard of this proposed tax on incoming transfers,

If that was how you expressed it to her than not surprised.

 

It may be taxable but if you brought the money into Thailand say in January 2024 or 2025 any tax payable is not due until you file the relevant return between January and March in the following year......The bank (currently) would have little to do with it.

 

Most banks have a limit after which they contact the account holder - at least in my experience.

[Cake Monster]

I really dont know if Thailand are legally able to Tax a Pension from a Foreign Country

Any, and all recipients of pensions while living abroad as an Expat, will legally be registered for that Pension, and any Taxation Liabilities with their Native Home Country

As an Expat, we are "guests " in Thailand ( often referred too as an Alien ) under the provision of Various forms of Visa issuance, something the Authorities are all too fond of stating.

As Expats we do not have Thai Citizenship

Are classed as non Residents

Have no Thai ID number, and therefore cannot be registered as any kind of Tax paying person

Any attempt to make an Expat pay Tax will be tantamount to theft, and any Human Rights Lawyer will have a fiekd Day

[1FinickyOne]

On 11/25/2023 at 9:31 AM, Lacessit said:

 

I suspect this is a brain fart

Blocks out the sun?

[Geir Rasch]

2 hours ago, mfd101 said:

Good luck with that.

I have done that for several years now. No problem!

[proton]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

My wife and I have income from UK, we fill in tax return every year, so I can prove

I have never in my life filled in a tax return, never been sent one and the last P60 I got was when retired 17 years ago.

[timendres]

1 hour ago, Geir Rasch said:

I have done that for several years now. No problem!

 

Nine years I did the same with my US taxes. But you do not deduct the income taxed.

You compute the taxes owed on the income, then subtract taxes paid here.