Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

And obviously you are not Einstein either. Ending the brutal illegal, and inhumane occupation will stop the resistance. Not rocket science.

 

Hamas is interested in more than that.

[Wobblybob]

Just now, Danny Australia said:

 

And obviously you are not Einstein either. Ending the brutal illegal, and inhumane occupation will stop the resistance. Not rocket science.

Don't worry Danny boy the water pumps are being set up as we put pen to paper and very soon the Palestinian terrorists will be flushed out of their tunnels like rats from a sewer, hope it doesn't cause you to lose too many nights sleep.

[Thorgal]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Why would they want to go to Israel when breaking out of prison ?

Don't they have apartheid in Israel 

Why didn't they break out to Egypt ?

 

From my military experience :

 

If you go for a longtime military operation you take at least a backpack with food, tent etc.

 

I only saw the Israeli military soldiers wearing backpacks in the beginning of the ground offensive...

[Jeff the Chef]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Glad you liked it. I'd share some about being consistent, but maybe people are still digesting so not a good idea.

As for deflection - nope. Simply unwilling to give some post and posters more free exposure. I have no issued addressing most posts - as you've no doubt noticed.

Yep, your normal, (I can't believe I said that).

[Wobblybob]

5 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Because I've answered your similar question to another poster previously.

Try answering it truthfully might be a novel idea.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

These Hamas war prisoners had no independent supervision during interrogation. 

 

So, these Hamas declarations "could have been" forced...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnLq0DjErIA&t=18s

 

 

Yawn. Do you have any credible sources to support the claims you have made regarding the Hamas invasion and all that?

[Jeff the Chef]

42 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Jesse Jackson, is that you?!

No, Morch on.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

From my military experience :

 

If you go for a longtime military operation you take at least a backpack with food, tent etc.

 

I only saw the Israeli military soldiers wearing backpacks in the beginning of the ground offensive...

 

I wouldn't know that you actually had any relevant military experience, and considering the credibility of your posts would question this anyway.

Regardless, there were far more supplies captured then you try to present - plus not a big deal living off the land if taking over civilian settlements.

[Nick Carter icp]

4 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

From my military experience :

 

If you go for a longtime military operation you take at least a backpack with food, tent etc.

 

I only saw the Israeli military soldiers wearing backpacks in the beginning of the ground offensive...

 

 

   The idea was to kill the Israelis and stay in their houses and to eat their food 

[Danny Australia]

5 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I don't know - it's something you claim. Not something you provide proof for. By your 'reasoning' Hamas ranks should have been swelling by now, even prior to the current war. The effect you mention is either constant, as in so long as things go on there's a steady stream of volunteers to draw on, with occasional 'peaks' after such wars. It doesn't change the overall situation much.

 

As for your garbage comment - the Fatah/PLO would be the obvious example. But then you don't seem to know much about things. Strong opinion, yeah - you do have those.

 

Fateh/PLO softened their stand and therefore both became irrelevant and lost their popularity among the masses, and Hamas filled that vacuum. Give me one example where a resistance movement ever got freedom without a fight or an example of an occupying power feeling guilty and ending occupation as a gesture of good will :) :) :) 

[Thorgal]

2 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

 

   The idea was to kill the Israelis and stay in their houses and to eat their food 

 

Ah OK. No plan is actually also a plan...

[Bkk Brian]

52 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Your opinion has been noted, thanks.

No pointing out a fact

[Thorgal]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yawn. Do you have any credible sources to support the claims you have made regarding the Hamas invasion and all that?

 

Because there's no news outlet or state official that explained that it was a total war of Hamas to re-conquer all Israeli territory with only +/-3.500 attackers against 600.000 Israeli's...

Edited December 6, 2023 by Thorgal

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

Fateh/PLO softened their stand and therefore both became irrelevant and lost their popularity among the masses, and Hamas filled that vacuum. Give me one example where a resistance movement ever got freedom without a fight or an example of an occupying power feeling guilty and ending occupation as a gesture of good will :) :) :) 

 

As usual, you make comments without bothering to back them up. Fatah/PLO popularity issues are, for example, strongly related to issues of corruption. That doesn't figure in your post at all. As for actual support figures, I think that before 7/10 polls were more or less even between Hamas and the Fatah. Was some talk and links on that in the beginning of the original main topic. That you claim this lose of popular support was simply because they softened their stance and 'became irrelevant' sounds more like your opinion.

 

Unless you missed it, the Palestinians have already had their years of armed resistance. It brought them nothing much but further misery, and worsened their situation. The only time this trend was reversed was when they opted for diplomacy. That it did not last (for reasons to do with both sides) is another matter.

[Danny Australia]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Rubbish.

Classic Morch at work.

Sometimes you write half a thesis in reply about some trivial post but when you lose the argument and when faced with a powerful logic, you start calling people liars, ignorant, stupid, trolls etc. or trying to rubbish their compelling point of view, as you did here.  

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Because there's no news outlet or state official that explained that it was a total war of Hamas to re-conquer all Israeli territory with only +/-3.500 attackers against 600.000 Israeli's...

 

That's your nonsense version, so obviously it would not feature on self-respecting venues. But you made the claim that the Hamas attack was something more of quick in and out thing. Available information suggests their aims were boarder. Go ahead and deflect this one as well.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Danny Australia said:

Classic Morch at work.

Sometimes you write half a thesis in reply about some trivial post but when you lose the argument and when faced with a powerful logic, you start calling people liars, ignorant, stupid, trolls etc. or trying to rubbish their compelling point of view, as you did here.  

 

Sure, because I'm somehow obligated to answer seriously to each and every post, right? Respect each one of the poster airing their extreme, biased unsupported views, as well, eh?

 

Again, folks - coming from some posters, these personal comments are a joke.

[Thorgal]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

That's your nonsense version, so obviously it would not feature on self-respecting venues. But you made the claim that the Hamas attack was something more of quick in and out thing. Available information suggests their aims were boarder. Go ahead and deflect this one as well.

 

Exactly. A hostage exchange with cease fire would have been sufficient.

 

No mass bombing and ground offensive was needed in Gaza...

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Thorgal

[Danny Australia]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

You don't appear to be done judging from your voluminous posts, I guess it's difficult for you to argue against facts.

 Spot on. 

[Morch]

Just now, Thorgal said:

 

Exactly. A hostage exchange with cease fire would have been sufficient.

 

No mass bombing and ground offensive was needed.

 

 

And yet, available information suggests that they had broader plans and goals - which were not achieved. You seem to alternate between denying and ignoring that - while making definite, yet unsupported claims of your own regarding their intentions. When asked to back it up with something credible, you deflect.

 

And sure, Israel should have just looked the other way and forget about all them dead civilians, raped women and the rest.

 

Try harder.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Thorgal said:

 

Hamas and Gaza franchise attack of 7th of October was only to take hostages and to exchange them against Palestinian hostages taken previously in OPT in prisons on Israeli soil.

 

There was never a massive plan to invade and re-take (as possession) Israeli territory by only +/- 3.500 Gaza militants against some 170.000 regular IDF servicemen and some 465.000 IDF reservists.

 

Again, the 7th of October attacks were made with AK47's, DIY RPG's and paragliders, etc.

Rubbish:

 

New evidence suggests that they were prepared to go even further. Some militants carried enough food, ammunition and equipment to last several days, officials said, and bore instructions to continue deeper into Israel if the first wave of attacks succeeded, potentially striking larger Israeli cities.

 

“Kill as many people and take as many hostages as possible.” 

 

Hamas envisioned deeper attacks, aiming to provoke an Israeli war

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/12/hamas-planning-terror-gaza-israel/

https://archive.ph/kjIyr

[Bkk Brian]

Lets not forget the instructions to rape and mutilate.

 

Their bodies tell their stories. They’re not alive to speak for themselves.

Over the last several weeks, NBC News has reviewed five interrogations of captured Hamas fighters, an Arabic-language document that instructed Hamas how to pronounce “Take off your pants” in Hebrew, six images of naked or partially naked deceased female bodies, seven eyewitness accounts of sexual violence including both rape and mutilation, 11 testimonies of first responders, and two accounts from workers in morgues who handled the bodies of women after they were recovered from the massacre.

The evidence, primarily from the Israel Defense Forces and Israeli officials, suggests that dozens of Israeli women were raped or sexually abused or mutilated during the Oct. 7 terrorist attacks. According to first responders, one was mutilated with a pair of scissors and another stabbed with a knife. The genitals of some men who had been killed were mutilated as well. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hamas-rape-israeli-women-oct-7-rcna128221

[Bkk Brian]

Twitter video interviews, too graphic to render here

 

"We told the world Hamas raped women.
they didn’t believe us, they asked “Where are the testimonies?”

Here, here are the testimonies. watch every single moment, don’t allow yourself to skip a second."

 

https://twitter.com/YaariCohen/status/1731777054750691822

 

[Jeff the Chef]

35 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

Classic Morch at work.

Sometimes you write half a thesis in reply about some trivial post but when you lose the argument and when faced with a powerful logic, you start calling people liars, ignorant, stupid, trolls etc. or trying to rubbish their compelling point of view, as you did here.  

Standard Morch practice lol

[Jeff the Chef]

35 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Sure, because I'm somehow obligated to answer seriously to each and every post, right? Respect each one of the poster airing their extreme, biased unsupported views, as well, eh?

 

Again, folks - coming from some posters, these personal comments are a joke.

As are your replies 

[Thorgal]

1 minute ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Standard Morch practice lol

 

LOL

[JBChiangRai]

5 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Israel is a Terrorist State

 

I am using this definition taken from the Encyclopaedia Brittanica Online which defines terrorism generally as "the systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective". The encyclopedia adds that "[e]stablishment terrorism, often called state or state-sponsored terrorism, is employed by governments—or more often by factions within governments—against that government's citizens, against factions within the government, or against foreign governments or groups."

 

I am not saying this because of Israel's response to the Hamas attacks on 7th July which probably could be qualification criteria (and let me be clear before you jump in with labeling me antisemitic, I am not, many of my friends and business colleagues are Israeli.  Further, I do condemn the attacks on 7th October by the terrorists Hamas.

 

I label Israel a Terrorist State because since 7th October there have been 314 attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank (documented by the UN) some of these have been used to steal more land from the Palestinians.  The USA has sanctioned some of these settlers and is applying pressure to Israel to stop allowing this to happen.  Of course nothing will happen.

 

Israel is occupying the West Bank against international law and is operating an apartheid system.

 

Israel is a Terrorist State under Netanyahu because it's aim in allowing the settlers to terrorise the West Bank civilians is to label all of the West Bank "Israel" as documented by Netanyahu himself in his July presentation to the UN showing both Gaza & the West Bank as one single entity "Israel".

 

State terrorism - Wikipedia

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

... You do not deal with facts, but with selective choice of, and a biased interpretation.

 

I gave a definition of terrorism and I gave the link, let me abridge the relevant bits for you

 

"state or state-sponsored terrorism, is employed by governments—or more often by factions within governments—against that government's citizens, against factions within the government, or against foreign governments or groups.

 

There have been 314 UN documented attacks on Palestinians by settlers in the West Bank since 7th October, land has been stolen and entire villages displaced.  US sanctions individuals implicated in West Bank attacks - BBC News

 

Can we link the Israeli Government or Faction within the Israeli Government to this? 

 

Yes we can. "

The settlers are armed and supported by powerful allies in the Israeli government, led by Itamar Ben Gvir, the minister for national security and Bezalel Smotrich, the finance minister who also has security responsibilities in the West Bank.

Controversially, Mr Smotrich just found more than $100 million for the settlers. 

Israeli settler violence brings destruction and fear to West Bank as war rages - BBC News

 

Israel is occupying the West Bank against International Law and operating an apartheid system

Israel's apartheid against Palestinians - Amnesty International

 

Is Israel's aim to declare the West Bank as Israel?

Israel’s Gaza war: Welcome to the new, “new” Middle East - The Washington Post

 

A few nights ago, the school in Khirbet Zanuta, a small Palestinian village in the hills south of Hebron, was destroyed along with most of the houses, by a bulldozer.  Around 200 Palestinians had to leave the destroyed village.  The Police did not investigate even though the village petitioned Israel's Supreme Court. Israeli settler violence brings destruction and fear to West Bank as war rages - BBC News

 

So we have a declared aim to incorporate the West Bank as Israel, we have the Israeli governement supporting the illegal Israeli settlers with $100M.  QED there is your link, Israel most definitely can and should be labeled a Terrorist State.

 

You will notice Morch, there are no personal attacks in here, nothing other than referenced facts and a proven conclusion.

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

I gave a definition of terrorism and I gave the link, let me abridge the relevant bits for you

 

"state or state-sponsored terrorism, is employed by governments—or more often by factions within governments—against that government's citizens, against factions within the government, or against foreign governments or groups.

 

There have been 314 UN documented attacks on Palestinians by settlers in the West Bank since 7th October, land has been stolen and entire villages displaced.  US sanctions individuals implicated in West Bank attacks - BBC News

 

Can we link the Israeli Government or Faction within the Israeli Government to this? 

 

Yes we can. "

The settlers are armed and supported by powerful allies in the Israeli government, led by Itamar Ben Gvir, the minister for national security and Bezalel Smotrich, the finance minister who also has security responsibilities in the West Bank.

Controversially, Mr Smotrich just found more than $100 million for the settlers. 

Israeli settler violence brings destruction and fear to West Bank as war rages - BBC News

 

Israel is occupying the West Bank against International Law and operating an apartheid system

Israel's apartheid against Palestinians - Amnesty International

 

Is Israel's aim to declare the West Bank as Israel?

Israel’s Gaza war: Welcome to the new, “new” Middle East - The Washington Post

 

A few nights ago, the school in Khirbet Zanuta, a small Palestinian village in the hills south of Hebron, was destroyed along with most of the houses, by a bulldozer.  Around 200 Palestinians had to leave the destroyed village.  The Police did not investigate even though the village petitioned Israel's Supreme Court. Israeli settler violence brings destruction and fear to West Bank as war rages - BBC News

 

So we have a declared aim to incorporate the West Bank as Israel, we have the Israeli governement supporting the illegal Israeli settlers with $100M.  QED there is your link, Israel most definitely can and should be labeled a Terrorist State.

 

You will notice Morch, there are no personal attacks in here, nothing other than referenced facts and a proven conclusion.

That label and 7 bucks will get you a latte at Starbucks.

[Morch]

@JBChiangRai

 

What you present is your opinion, relying on selective interpretation of facts.

I do get it that you really want it to become reality. However, there's that small matter of the gap between what you wish for and what is.

Other than in your imagination and your post, there is no international thrust aligned with what you suggest.

So you declaring stuff, or asserting the world should do this or that - not much interest considering your obvious bias.

[Bkk Brian]

Bravo!

 

Commander of the 50th Battalion LTC Tomer, talking about the massive Hamas weapon cache his soldiers uncovered.