Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

I am well aware that there is opposition to the settlements and to Israeli - Palestinian policies in general among Israelis. Do yourself a favor and cut the projection.

 

If you think my questions are "loaded" it's because you feel challenged by them. I don't see people such as yourself here wanting to talk about tens of thousands of dead civilians and how that might have been avoided. Notably absent is any condemnation of Netanyahu's role in this even though it's widespread within Israel. I'm not seeing centrist Israelis here.

 

Anyway, that's my ration for the day, I'm off to Central Festival to buy Xmas cards for my condo staff, if there's any left.

 

I stand by my comment. On a parallel topic you made the odd claim (regarding reader comments on the Haaretz, one of the Israeli Left's bastions) implying that "Hebrew speakers" share a similar/unified world view. On other posts here you claim all Gazans support Hamas. Even if you actually perceive more complexity exists, your posts do not convey this.

 

Again, you post a whole lot of nonsense because you don't bother reading the topic (and parallel) ones. I have actually posted negative comments about Netanyahu numerous times (some on current topics as well, obviously). I have also made it clear that I do not see Israel's West Bank related policies as legitimate or wise. As for discussing how things might have been avoided - of course I have, both with regard to Hamas and Israel.

 

Your questions are loaded, because that's how you phrase them. That's how you roll.

 

Run along now, it's what you do when you can't address points. Each and every time.

[Nick Carter icp]

Just now, hotandsticky said:

 

If you ignore the killing of over 3,300 civilians and injuring over 12,000 in indiscriminate bombing raids then your statement might be accurate.

 

But it isn't - and by keep repeating something doesn't make it right.

 

    It isn't a war crime for civilians to get killed it a battle and Israel has been attacking Hamas affiliated  buildings and there hasn't been indiscriminate bombings , so there's no war crime there either 

[hotandsticky]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

    It isn't a war crime for civilians to get killed it a battle and Israel has been attacking Hamas affiliated  buildings and there hasn't been indiscriminate bombings , so there's no war crime there either 

 

 

Non so blind as those who cannot see.

 

Your claim versus independent human rights experts has no value.....end of.

Edited December 13, 2023 by hotandsticky

[placeholder]

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Oh, I read the thing.

 

Note that this is not from a WP reporter, but a freelancer (mentioned in the article). Previously based in Jordan, nowadays in Lebanon. Most of his articles and columns on related issues are negative toward Israel, often broadcasting the other side's (be it Palestinian, Lebanese, Hezbollah etc.) points and positions. If not mistaken, currently mainly works for a Qatari owned, Palestinian run publication. Considering this involves Hezbollah, expecting him to be openly critical, weary or even objective regarding this is an choice. I think the WP is being careful, leaving some hedging room by stating the source.

 

As the area is controlled by Hezbollah (addressed in the article), reporters will see what Hezbollah allows them to see. There is no clear indication where the fragments were found, or even whether they relate to the current incident. Same goes for citizens' reports - do you think they are likely to go against Hezbollah? Again, a choice.

 

Israel's comments on this was that such means were indeed used, but against areas where Hezbollah was staging, and against Hezbollah infrastructure.

 

It's customary for the USA to express concern at such reports, and this is not the first time such comments were made. Don't think a whole lot came out of previous instances. Guess that Israel presents more detailed  information to USA counterparts, and that sort of where it ends.

I would trust the Washington Post's evaluation of the bona fides of this reporter over yours. 

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Non so blind as those who cannot see

 

   Hamas use hospitals and schools to fire rockets from

They then become legitimate targets for Israel to bomb 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

With figures ranging from 15-20,000 dead Gazan people many of whom are Hamas terrorists and their leadership, where do they think the're going with it exactly?

Most are women and children.

[Nick Carter icp]

Just now, hotandsticky said:

 

 

The truth hurts?

 

 

 

I think that you can find the report button.

 

   Responding with abuse , very terrorist like behaviour .

Disregarding  the rules and going on the attack , just like Hamas did on October 7 th 

[Neeranam]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

Run along now, it's what you do when you can't address points. Each and every time.

555, that's rich!

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

With figures ranging from 15-20,000 dead Gazan people many of whom are Hamas terrorists and their leadership, where do they think the're going with it exactly? Win? absolutely not? pity of the world and more aids and billions of dollars that the Hamas can put their hands on? yes...do they care how many more Gazan will die and what their cities and towns will left once it is all over? not very likly, Palestinians lives are expendable and cheap and are used by others as a scapegoats...

 

Several points:

 

The more dead Gazans and destruction, the harder for Saudi Arabia to proceed normalizing relations with Israel, and tasking for other Arab countries to maintain them.

 

On the domestic front this serves the Hamas to retain its relevance, and bolster its position vs. the Fatah (in preparation for Abbas's expected demise and the power struggle to follow).

 

Within Hamas, Sinwar was previously seen as weak vs. Israel (which may or may not have been a ploy), and almost ousted not long ago. The attack put an end to this, and his position is now secure. He's is better placed to ascend to the next level (luxury life abroad) when the time comes (though he's an odd one, so might not).

 

There are bound to be huge aid budgets coming Gaza's way. Each casualty, each building destroyed represents monetary value. Some of the funds will still be funneled to Hamas pockets, some go toward pacifying the Gazans and securing loyalty of Hamas men.

 

The more death and destruction, the easier for Hamas (and the Palestinians) to de-legitimize Israel. As seen on these topics, not too hard ignoring the 7/10 attack altogether, raise related conspiracy theories, minimize it, make justifications for it.

[Morch]

24 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Its quite simple and straightforward

Hamas committed numerous war crimes , taking hostages for one .

   Israel hasn't committed any war crimes .

If he keeps stating that Israel has committed war crimes , I just have to keep replying that Israel hasn't committed war crimes 

 

Yeah...twins separated at birth in terms of argument making.

 

Israel may have committed war crimes during this war. It is almost a certainty some of its actions were such.

This will be looked into and decided.

 

To cut the expected cycle short and save time: this is where you start with the nonsense about 'tell me which war crimes were committed', followed by me referring  you back to this post again, advising a careful reading.

 

 

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I would trust the Washington Post's evaluation of the bona fides of this reporter over yours. 

 

You would.

That's not actually addressing what I posted much, but expected.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Yeah...twins separated at birth in terms of argument making.

 

Israel may have committed war crimes during this war. It is almost a certainty some of its actions were such.

This will be looked into and decided.

 

To cut the expected cycle short and save time: this is where you start with the nonsense about 'tell me which war crimes were committed', followed by me referring  you back to this post again, advising a careful reading.

 

 

 

   Yes  until Israel has been found to have committed war crimes , People shouldn't claim that Israel have committed war crimes .

   What acts of Israel were potential war crimes ?

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Yes  until Israel has been found to have committed war crimes , People shouldn't claim that Israel have committed war crimes .

   What acts of Israel were potential war crimes ?

 

Same goes for blanket denials of such.

As for your question, see the post you replied to.

[Bkk Brian]

29 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Tell that to the UN..

 

 

 

Don't worry, the UN knows that Hamas have been using hospitals, schools and mosques for their terror activities.

 

Oh I edited out your flame from your reply.

[placeholder]

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You would.

That's not actually addressing what I posted much, but expected.

I would? Really? In making a choice between, on the one hand, a highly respected journalistic institution that has its credibility on the line, and, on the other, an anonymous internet poster, who wouldn't?

And of course it's addressing what you posted. You think the Post didn't take this past journalistic history into account? 

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I would? Really? In making a choice between, on the one hand, a highly respected journalistic institution that has its credibility on the line, and, on the other, an anonymous internet poster, who wouldn't?

And of course it's addressing what you posted. You think the Post didn't take this past journalistic history into account? 

 

You would also make this expected comment, sure.

 

As posted, the WP clearly hedges and protects itself. Can always dump it on the freelancer, and issue a nothing correction as needed.

And you are obviously choosing to focus on one thing, disregarding the rest.

 

Hezbollah controls the area, and it's not an organization to mess with if you want to live and work in Lebanon, or let alone Southern Lebanon.

Where the fragments were retrieved from is not conclusive.

Read the post again.

[hotandsticky]

58 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Responding with abuse , very terrorist like behaviour .

Disregarding  the rules and going on the attack , just like Hamas did on October 7 th 

 

 

YAWN!

 

Google Israel war crimes.

 

A pointless exercise as you will withdraw into denial like a one trick pony 

[Nick Carter icp]

Just now, hotandsticky said:

 

 

YAWN!

 

Google Israel war crimes.

 

A pointless exercise as you will withdraw into denial like a one trick pony 

 

 Nope .

I will not google that . 

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Your posts demonstrate that you invest far more energy into condemning Israel.  

 

Could that be because the Israeli war crimes are continuing every day?

[Bkk Brian]

38 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Could that be because the Israeli war crimes are continuing every day?

Can uou provide credible links to the daily war crimes? I can provide  links to daily war crimes by Hamas happening now.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

YAWN!

 

Google Israel war crimes.

 

A pointless exercise as you will withdraw into denial like a one trick pony 

 

Yeah...because such a search will include only relevant. proved, instances.

I think you know better than that.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

Could that be because the Israeli war crimes are continuing every day?

 

Israel's possible, presumed, war crimes might be.

Hamas's war crimes (much more clear cut) actually do.

 

Whenever Hamas launches a rocket at Israel, that's a war crime.

Whenever Hamas uses a school, hospital, clinic or civilians as shelter to operate from, that's a war crime.

Every day Hamas holds on the hostages,......I think you get the picture.

 

Israel's possible war crimes would need investigating in order to be solidly proved.

I'm not denying that there may be such.

 

And no, when it comes to your posts, there was no question of balance.

Not now, not earlier.

 

[hotandsticky]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yeah...because such a search will include only relevant. proved, instances.

I think you know better than that.

 

There will be some fact in there.....as you well know.

 

Better than wearing a blindfold.

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

Israel may have committed war crimes during this war.

Even Biden has warned them of 'indiscriminate bombing', which means they do not distinguish between military targets and civilian populations. This indiscriminate targeting of civilians is considered a violation of international humanitarian law.

By their use of certain weapons and large-scale aerial bombardments, and using explosive devices in densely populated areas, Israel are causing widespread and disproportionate impacts on civilians. The US now know it has gone too far, yet their Islamophobia is stronger.

[Morch]

Just now, hotandsticky said:

 

There will be some fact in there.....as you well know.

 

Better than wearing a blindfold.

 

Some, but not regarding current events. People, bodies and organizations asserting things is not the same as things being proven legally. If one references the past, then what you see is the same thing over and over again - a whole lot of 'war crime' claims during the fighting, then when actual investigation and testimonies are on, the bottom line is rather 'disappointing' for some. A whole lot of things which are bad and ugly are done during war, but the way 'war crimes' legalities go, they are basically construed in a manner which favors modern armies, and the way they fight. There's usually a legal demand to satisfy a certain threshold of actions taken, and that's about it. The popular notion that all civilian deaths, destruction and so on are 'war crimes' is an illusion. I'm not saying this is a good thing, it's just how it is.

[Morch]

Got to love how posters who take every chance to berate, denigrate and ridicule Biden now treat his words as gospel.

 

Again, civilians killed in wars is not necessarily a war crime. For it to be a war crime, a whole lot of legal conditions must be ticked. Until such a time an investigation is on, and until it's findings are published, appealed and so on, most of what people go on about here are opinions.

 

 

[Jai Dee]

Several troll posts and replies have been removed as they were in violation of our Community Standards.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, ezzra said:

Israel has started pumping water from the Mediterranean Sea into Hamas' underground tunnel system in Gaza

and hopefully all the "rats" of Gaza will drown,

 

***Maybe it's too late in the piece to ask this question/s, but did Hamas and their supporters thought what Israel response will be to such action the Hamas and other Palestinians took on the 7th of October? did they took into account how ferocious and deadly Israel response will be? if they did and dismissed it out hands just because they took hostages, Oh, how surly mistaken they were...

 

 

IMO they expected israel to respond in the way they have, and succeeded.

Before October 7 the western world ignored israel's crimes in the west bank and the blockade of Gaza. Nobody is ignoring israel's war crimes now.

 

Israels default position is force and oppression, and that is being exposed to the world like never before. America is also being reviled for it's blind support of israeli war crimes and supplying the bombs to carry out those war crimes.

 

The UN general assembly has called for a ceasefire by an overwhelming majority, and if israel does not stop murdering children ( over 7,000 dead so far ) they will find out what the world can do- think apartheid and Sth Africa.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, ezzra said:

hopefully all the "rats" of Gaza will drown,

Language suspiciously similar to that used in a certain European country in the 1930s.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO they expected israel to respond in the way they have, and succeeded.

Before October 7 the western world ignored israel's crimes in the west bank and the blockade of Gaza. Nobody is ignoring israel's war crimes now.

 

Israels default position is force and oppression, and that is being exposed to the world like never before. America is also being reviled for it's blind support of israeli war crimes and supplying the bombs to carry out those war crimes.

 

The UN general assembly has called for a ceasefire by an overwhelming majority, and if israel does not stop murdering children ( over 7,000 dead so far ) they will find out what the world can do- think apartheid and Sth Africa.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

So you accept Hamas knowingly chose to sacrifice thousands of Gazans in order to make its point? Does that count as 'success'?

 

Bleating about Israel's alleged war crimes in the Gaza Strip is fine, but does it register with you that Hamas pretty much made itself pariah on the international level? How does that serve the Palestinian cause? Because no matter what Israel did, does or will do - the 7/10 attack won't just be erased.