Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Rimmer]

Enough with the bickering and baiting, move on please and try to post something constructive and informative about the war that can be discussed by everyone.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

Nope. You accused him of hating Jews. Nothing else. That's a flame.

There is a very good reason for that if you bother to look on the previous post debate I had with him. Enough of your deflection now, back to the topic

[Morch]

10 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Well I'll give it a go...........

 

But first I will state that the attacks on Israeli civillians on 7th October were horrific and the work of animals.  But let's be clear here, those attacks were committed by Hamas. They were not committed by Palestinian Civillians.

 

So, returning to war crimes committed by Israel - since the start of this war, Israel has been accused of the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians.  Israel have used as their reasoning that such civillians are actually the victims of Hamas who force 'collateral damage' through hiding amongst the population.  The Israelis also made out that Hamas sited their weapons storage and other infrastructure in public buildings and schools. Even that Hamas had a major heaquarters in the Al Shifa hospital.  The photos I've seen, provided by the Israelis after the capture the Al Shifa showed a handful of weapons, some clothing and, I think, one laptop - hardly a headqaurters.

 

I have never believed that the Israelis were taking much care of where they were bombing or have any particular care for Palestinian civillians.  That conviction was totally justified last week when Israeli soldiers shot dead 3 Israeli citizens who were un-armed and waving a white flag.  If they have no care for anyone waving a white flag, what hope do Palestinians have?

 

The Israelis actions are both indefensible and futile.  The amount of 'collateral damage' has been stated as far higher than that in any other war and what do they think they are currently creating in Gaza?  They may well defeat Hamas but just how do they think the remaining Palestinians will regard them?

 

Their actions are creating a force far bigger than Hamas ever was from people who won't care - what have they got to lose? Unless the rest of the world steps in they have no future.  Prior to this the Israeli right wing regarded Palestinians as little more than dogs - how will they treat them once they are defeated?  What do such actions breed?

 

From the start of the conflict the Israelis have ordered the Palestinians to move from one area to another and then shelled the area they told people to move to.  They did exactly that again last week when they told some Palestinians to move to Rafah City then bombed it the next day.

 

Although it is in no way an excuse for the 7th October attrocities, the Israeli government's behaviour over the last few years has been a huge contributory factor in the situation that lead to the current situation. Even as I write, Israeli 'settlers' are stealing Palestinian farms and land in the West Bank and shooting Palestinians.  As the UN's Anthony Guterrez said  - this situation was not created out of a vacuum.  In 2015 Netanyahu stated that there will never be a Palestinian State and has repeated that several times since - last week he said it will never happen. That cannot stand and neither can Hamas's intent to destroy Israel continue.

 

Like many, I have always believed that any solution to the decades old conflict in Israel/Palestine must include the disolution of groups such as Hamas but Israel must also get rid of its right wing government and stop encouraging the stealing of land. Both sides must recognise each other's right to exist.

 

My overall concern at the moment is the huge amount of Palestinians being killed by Israel's attacks every day. There is no and can be no - excuse for what is going on at the moment. Its not collateral damage, its slaughter.

 

So War Crimes:

• Indiscriminate bombing of civillian buildings/homes
• Shooting of unarmed Palestinian civillians
• Shooting of unidentified/unarmed people waving white flags
• Failing to allow adequate humanitarian aid to some areas
• Failing to allow sufficient humanitarian aid overall
• Deliberate turning off of water supplies
• Carrying out military operations in refugee camps

They will, I have no doubt, add to that list as time moves on.  I am also sure that Hamas have also committed War Crimes but that wasn't your question.

 

 

Got to love those one liner disclaimers about Hamas before the expected anti-Israeli rhetoric is spewed. Like ticking that box is supposed to make the poster views count as 'balanced' or something.

 

So, to be clear - the post doesn't actually address the question replied to, but rather (after a long tirade), goes on to list what poster thinks are 'war crimes' committed by Israel. No actual proof of such, no official statements by relevant bodies, no investigation and not even much evidence of poster understanding the legalities involved.

 

Like the list of 'war crimes', which features in many posts on here, the tirade on offer is just a lengthy version of the same old battered opinions, and I-believe stuff.

 

Practically every single 'point' was already addressed multiple times on these topics. This includes all them sneaky false 'facts', assertions, and the rest appearing in the rant.

 

And as usual, low dosage of reality when it comes to alternative actions, possible solutions and even might-have-been comments.

 

Same old.

 

[Bkk Brian]

Well worth a listen and covers many points that are relevant right now:

 

"We do our best to conduct our operations as carefully and as professionally as possible...there may be deviations that require further examination. The IDF has a robust system for doing so, and it starts with the IDF’s General Staff Fact Finding and Assessment Mechanism."

Watch the full statement by MAJ (Res.) Keren Hajioff:

 

[Neeranam]

19 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

You're doing your usual attack and flame the messenger.

Flames are not allowed on this forum, call a moderator!

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Flames are not allowed on this forum, call a moderator!

So still off topic then and intent on more nonsense. You need to withdraw this hateful anti-Semitic post then. I've kept a screenshot however should I ever need to remind you:

 

 

 

[Morch]

10 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Yes, warned to leave and go to another area that will then be bombed. Nobody seems to consider that Palestinian civillians are not the ones who carried out the 7th October attacks.  Given Israel's actions though, they may very well be Hamas or some other militant group members in the future.

 

You are painting things in a misleading way on two counts:

 

(a)

Civilians were not deliberately told to evacuate to safe zones, and then attacked there. There was no 'trap' as I think you tried to imply.

Hamas, by the way, does fire mortars and launches rockets from said areas, or in near proximity to them.

 

(b)

The initial Hamas attack on 7/10 was carried out by Hamas men. There were mobs on Gazans following on their trail - looting, killing, raping and whatnot. Some  of the more horrific stuff was done by these people. Initially Hamas leaders even tried to place all the blame for the atrocities on these people - but as this didn't float, and not well received - they dropped it in favor of all out denials. Also, Hamas offered money for any hostages brought from Israel and delivered to his hands - this was aimed at these people.

 

So obviously, not all of the people in the Gaza Strip partook in this, but saying it was only Hamas is not true.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

You are painting things in a misleading way on two counts:

 

(a)

Civilians were not deliberately told to evacuate to safe zones, and then attacked there. There was no 'trap' as I think you tried to imply.

Hamas, by the way, does fire mortars and launches rockets from said areas, or in near proximity to them.

 

(b)

The initial Hamas attack on 7/10 was carried out by Hamas men. There were mobs on Gazans following on their trail - looting, killing, raping and whatnot. Some  of the more horrific stuff was done by these people. Initially Hamas leaders even tried to place all the blame for the atrocities on these people - but as this didn't float, and not well received - they dropped it in favor of all out denials. Also, Hamas offered money for any hostages brought from Israel and delivered to his hands - this was aimed at these people.

 

So obviously, not all of the people in the Gaza Strip partook in this, but saying it was only Hamas is not true.

 

Link?

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Link?

 

Link to what? This was all linked, discussed and debated on when it took place - way back in the topic.

That you do not bother reading topics is already established.

 

[Morch]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

To that you can add destroying infrastructure such as desalination plants and sewage systems, attacking ambulances, killing identified health staff and journalists, attacking hospitals and schools, destroying bakeries, denying fuel, water and food.

Plenty more as well.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Ambulances, hospitals and schools lose their protected status if abused by combatants. Already discussed on numerous posts and topics.

There is no unconditional protection as you imply.

 

Hamas has all the fuel the the Gaza Strip needs, and then some. It simply stole it from the civilians, aid groups and hospitals. This too was discussed on many discussions by now.

 

[Bkk Brian]

29 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

You seem to have conveniently not posted on this topic.

Your 'no war crimes'  claims are now silly.

 

How would that be a war crime? A grave error of judgement that's had a full investigation but war crime? That would need the Israeli parents of the soldiers to ask the ICC to investigate first right?

[Morch]

7 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Again and again and again...............yes HAMAS murdered Thai workers......NOT Palestinians - how can anyone be so stupid?

 

That is not exactly correct.

There were Thais killed by Gazan mobs as well.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

How would that be a war crime? A grave error of judgement that's had a full investigation but war crime? That would need the Israeli parents of the soldiers to ask the ICC to investigate first right?

 

Not right. The ICC does not just act on complaints by victims. They're usually dead for a start.

[Bkk Brian]

20 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You are painting things in a misleading way on two counts:

 

(a)

Civilians were not deliberately told to evacuate to safe zones, and then attacked there. There was no 'trap' as I think you tried to imply.

Hamas, by the way, does fire mortars and launches rockets from said areas, or in near proximity to them.

 

(b)

The initial Hamas attack on 7/10 was carried out by Hamas men. There were mobs on Gazans following on their trail - looting, killing, raping and whatnot. Some  of the more horrific stuff was done by these people. Initially Hamas leaders even tried to place all the blame for the atrocities on these people - but as this didn't float, and not well received - they dropped it in favor of all out denials. Also, Hamas offered money for any hostages brought from Israel and delivered to his hands - this was aimed at these people.

 

So obviously, not all of the people in the Gaza Strip partook in this, but saying it was only Hamas is not true.

I remember some of those discussions, dug up this one of the Palestinian civilians streaming through the border fence on Oct 7th. Of course there's also the time that the Hamas leader also denied they had killed any civilians despite all the evidence from body cams.

 

Source

 

Hamas leader refuses to acknowledge killing of civilians in Israel

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67321241

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

Not right. The ICC does not just act on complaints by victims. They're usually dead for a start.

Link to that claim?

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Link to that claim?

 

get real. Do you seriously think the ICC only acts on victim complaints?

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

get real. Do you seriously think the ICC only acts on victim complaints?

Is that your way of getting out of providing a link?    lol

 

What makes you think I was claiming that's the only way?

 

However, victims, as well as witnesses and non-governmental organisations (NGOs), may transmit information to the prosecutor of the ICC, who, under certain conditions, has the power to launch an investigation on his own initiative. The prosecutor of the ICC may decide to initiate an investigation under the following conditions: the State on the territory of which the crime was committed or the state of the nationality of the alleged offender has ratified the Rome Statute

https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/individual-recourse/

 

Of course we all know Israel has not signed the Rome Rome Statute

 

 

[Morch]

7 hours ago, asf6 said:

It would be interesting to know exactly what they felt threatened by.  

 

7 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Don't be silly......isn't everyone scared of white flags?

 

 

It was mentioned in some of the earlier reports that Hamas tried to lure IDF soldiers to ambushes by calling out in Hebrew.

Something similar was in evidence during the 7/10 attack where they tried to convince civilians to open up claiming they were IDF.

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

 

 

It was mentioned in some of the earlier reports that Hamas tried to lure IDF soldiers to ambushes by calling out in Hebrew.

Something similar was in evidence during the 7/10 attack where they tried to convince civilians to open up claiming they were IDF.

Poor attempt. And I see you got rid of the evidence :(

[Morch]

6 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Remember this, many of the IDF's soldiers are conscripts and its possible that just as there are dissenting voices in the Israeli civillian population, once this is over, any potential dissenters in the armed forces may well tell the story of what actually went on.  I've heard it said that the numbers of civiallians being killed in this conflict is way out of proportion with that in other recent wars. Traps are something a soldier has to deal with and that cannot be by simply killing anyone suspected of trying to trap them - otherwise that excuse could be applied to just about any situation involving civillians.  Should they shoot and kill an apparently injured child for example, in the fear that she might be concealing an explosive device?

 

Whatever, there will I suggest, be an investigation into the actions of both Hamas and the IDF carried out by the International Criminal Court into war crimes.  Based on the reports that I've seen on both UK and Israeli TV, the evidence in the case of the 3 young men killed would strongly suggest that war crimes were committed - evidence that I am yet to see Israel deny, only their conclusion is different.

 

There is a case to answer for breaking the standard rules of engagement and for the unlawful killing of unarmed civillians. A soldier cannot engage as an enemy, anyone who does not present an immediate threat to either human life or infrastructure unless otherwise ordered to do so by an officer he is subordinate to - even then, he/she is on thin ice. In that case, responsibility for any crime committed partially passes to that officer. 

 

Given the reported facts, it may be possible for a soldier to claim some form of mistake for shooting the first two men (doubtful) but the third young man who went inside a building and then called out in Hebrew?? Not a hope.  The first mistake, if indeed it was a mistake, or the possibility of a mistake would by then be clear and the second man should have been told to come out with his hands up. The fundamental point here is that a white flag was being waved. That is an internationally recognised sign of surrender and I don't see how any soldier could argue his/her way out of that.  There are agreed ways of dealing with both civillians and opposing forces displaying a white flag - methods designed to give the dominant force protection.

 

The sheer amount of Palestinian deaths points towards an indiscriminate bombing of clearly civillian areas, schools and hospitals - again illegal. Israel's claims that Hamas hides in such places have not been backed up by convincing evidence.

 

From sympathy over the 7th October Massacre - support for Israel has fallen drastically across the world - if not by governments, by the people.  Here in the UK the government has failed to outrightly condemn the actions of Israel in this matter but recent polls show the public strongly against Israel's clearly indiscriminate bombing of Gaza. The place is just a wasteland - even the worst photos and videos from Ukraine don't show such utter devastation.

 

 

Again, you don't seem to understand what 'war crimes' are, how they are decided, and what legalities actually imply.

All you have are interpretations based on your biased views and beliefs.

That's not a solid ground when trying for a legal argument.

 

 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

Like the list of 'war crimes', which features in many posts on here, the tirade on offer is just a lengthy version of the same old battered opinions, and I-believe stuff.

 

Do you think this is a war crime?

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1314517-hostages-were-carrying-white-cloth-when-shot-idf-says/#comment-18561406

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Poor attempt. And I see you got rid of the evidence :(

Why, its not like Hamas has not used luring tactics before, they are terrorists remember?

 

Israeli soldiers foiled “an elaborate Hamas ambush” that used dolls and children’s backpacks rigged with speakers playing sounds of crying to lure them into a terrorist tunnel in the Gaza Strip, the Israel Defense Forces said Friday.

Footage released by the IDF showed the alley where the ambush would have been staged.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/15/news/idf-discovers-hamas-trove-of-rigged-dolls-explosives/

[Morch]

5 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Given the news reports, many by the BBC which verify everything they report or state otherwise, are you suggesting that just a handful of people have been killed?

 

The videos and photos would suggest a picture of utter devastation.

 

Finished picking yet?

 

 

All the Palestinian casualty reports from Gaza originate from the Palestinian Ministry of Health there, which is controlled by Hamas.

Most of the major media outlets mention this in their reports. So no, it is not 'verified'.

 

A whole lot of people have been killed.

Hamas tries to package them all as civilian casualties.

This is not true.

 

You are repeating Hamas propaganda.

[Jingthing]

24 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Why, its not like Hamas has not used luring tactics before, they are terrorists remember?

 

Israeli soldiers foiled “an elaborate Hamas ambush” that used dolls and children’s backpacks rigged with speakers playing sounds of crying to lure them into a terrorist tunnel in the Gaza Strip, the Israel Defense Forces said Friday.

Footage released by the IDF showed the alley where the ambush would have been staged.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/15/news/idf-discovers-hamas-trove-of-rigged-dolls-explosives/

Of course they do.

Keep in mind that the Hamas fighters are well trained in non conventional tactics by Iran. Bombing is one thing but once on the ground Hamas has the advantage. It really is a real war. It's not one sided as the Israel demonizers try to sell. 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-turns-gaza-streets-into-deadly-maze-israeli-troops-2023-12-15/

 

 

JERUSALEM/CAIRO, Dec 17 (Reuters) - The Israeli army's death toll in Gaza is already almost twice as high as during a ground offensive in 2014, a reflection of how far it has pushed into the enclave and of Hamas' effective use of guerrilla tactics and an expanded arsenal.

Israeli military experts, an Israeli commander and a Hamas source described how the Palestinian group has used a big weapons stockpile, its knowledge of the terrain and a vast tunnel network to turn Gaza's streets into a deadly maze.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

Ever thought you could address what he actually said instead?

 

Ever thought that not all nonsense, antisemitic, flaming comments by resident trolls need to be fully addressed?

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

I support the right of all people to live - be they Israeli or Palestinian. I hate to say it but I wonder just what the Israeli's would do if they weren't under such international pressure? It seems to me that given the chance, they would simply wipe the Palestinians of the face of the earth.

+1

[placeholder]

18 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 

 

 

So basically, you've got nothing but a feeling to back this up with, right?

 

Here are some other questions marks -

 

What would be the point of this ?

Given the current composition of the Israeli war cabinet, how would this float? Never mind be an actual option?

If that was the thinking, how come there are still Gazans in the Northern part? And why was there (relatively) less of this in the center of the Gaza Strip?

Why isn't Rafah bombed?

And if that was it - why send in ground troops ?

 

 

 

No, I don't have "nothing but a feeling." It's the general consensus outside of Israel that the bombing campaign has been excessive. And there have been plenty of extreme statements from various members of the cabinet  You may think that those don't count but you're forgetting that members of the war cabinet are also politicians.

Remember how American politics changed on 9/11? Well, the shock delivered to Israel was even more severe. Whatever the stance of the more moderate members of the current cabinet, it's overwhelmingly likely that their thinking has changed. And politically speaking, would the Israeli public even accept a more considered, less hasty approach. It's true that while the Israeli political right wants the moderates support in the current situation, the moderates need to be part of the current government if they are to have any hope of political success later. I've read lots of Israeli commentators about their future hopes, and they don't seem to be great unless they take the same sharp rightward turn that the Israeli electorate has taken.

You mean why haven't all the Gazans fled the north? According to the Israel Times, as of Nov 8, more than 70% of Gazans had fled. Who knows what the percentage is now? As for why is there less in the center, maybe it's because Israel's capacity for bombing isn't unlimited?

And I don't understand your question about Rafah. If Israel wanted the Gazans to exit the territory, why would they bomb Rafah? Anyway, they are bombing it a bit but not much so far.

As for sending in ground troops...you seem to assume that the Israelis would have to choose one course over the other. The better question would be why not both given the Israeli public's (well roughly 80%) hunger for vengeance.

Finally, why wouldn't Israel want to make Gaza less habitable for the current residents? What strategic objective wouldn't be served if a significant number were to leave? Israel is going to have to occupy Gaza for quite a while if not forever. That should put something of a strain on the economy. It would be a lot easier to manage if there were a lot less Gazans.

[Rimmer]

some unattributed also repetitive argumentative posts and replies have been removed,

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

No, I don't have "nothing but a feeling." It's the general consensus outside of Israel that the bombing campaign has been excessive. And there have been plenty of extreme statements from various members of the cabinet  You may think that those don't count but you're forgetting that members of the war cabinet are also politicians.

Remember how American politics changed on 9/11? Well, the shock delivered to Israel was even more severe. Whatever the stance of the more moderate members of the current cabinet, it's overwhelmingly likely that their thinking has changed. And politically speaking, would the Israeli public even accept a more considered, less hasty approach. It's true that while the Israeli political right wants the moderates support in the current situation, the moderates need to be part of the current government if they are to have any hope of political success later. I've read lots of Israeli commentators about their future hopes, and they don't seem to be great unless they take the same sharp rightward turn that the Israeli electorate has taken.

You mean why haven't all the Gazans fled the north? According to the Israel Times, as of Nov 8, more than 70% of Gazans had fled. Who knows what the percentage is now? As for why is there less in the center, maybe it's because Israel's capacity for bombing isn't unlimited?

And I don't understand your question about Rafah. If Israel wanted the Gazans to exit the territory, why would they bomb Rafah? Anyway, they are bombing it a bit but not much so far.

As for sending in ground troops...you seem to assume that the Israelis would have to choose one course over the other. The better question would be why not both given the Israeli public's (well roughly 80%) hunger for vengeance.

Finally, why wouldn't Israel want to make Gaza less habitable for the current residents? What strategic objective wouldn't be served if a significant number were to leave? Israel is going to have to occupy Gaza for quite a while if not forever. That should put something of a strain on the economy. It would be a lot easier to manage if there were a lot less Gazans.

 

Why did you edit out the posts (your own posts...) that I was replying to?

 

And as said, you've got nothing but a bunch of assumptions and opinions, some of which are on less than solid ground.

 

The main thrust of your edited out comments was an implication of an ethnic cleansing intent/effort by Israel.

 

You have not produced anything serious as support on the previous posts, you do not present such now.

 

The bombing seen as excessive? That's not by itself a support for what you allege. You can pin in on a whole lot of other reasons, issues, agendas.

 

And 'moderates' participation in government helping their future political prospects? Very debatable. There are views that this may actually harm them, and serve Netanyahu. Asserting 'overwhelmingly likely that their thinking has changed' - carries little weight, just your opinion. Current polls continue to be very much negative to Netnayahu and the right in general. Considering the votes were almost evenly split last time, there isn't such a huge gap to close or anything.

 

People stayed on in the North of the Gaza Strip. There is no further attempt to dislodge them, even as sporadic fighting is still going on there. If this was about what you allege, there would be efforts to do exactly that. With regard to the Central areas of the Gaza Strip, they were basically hopped over after the hostage exchanges and the collapse of the 'ceasefire'/'pause'. The reason being that the clock started to tick (or seemed to, whatever) with regard to USA support and time left to operate. A move in the south of the Gaza Strip, where more Hamas forces are located was prioritized. If what you allege was a main concern it would make very little sense leaving a mass of population at the center of the Gaza Strip. Doesn't add up.

 

Rafah is on the border with Egypt. If Israel wanted to do as you claim, they'd have to 'motivate' people who escaped there to leave and cross over. That did not happen. To clarify, Rafah is a town/city - it's not just the border pass.

 

Sending in ground troops implies Israeli casualties. Israelis are kinda soft on that. If the only purpose was to drive away the Palestinians, it would not have required a ground operation, or rather, troops could have moved in at a much later stage - thus avoiding casualties. Your 'vengeance' point is, again, a matter of opinion you inject to the argument, nothing more. Given that this is about policy, not very convincing.

 

Your last point is nonsense. The more destruction the more effort it would be to rule and manage the Gaza Strip. The more death, the less cooperation from international community.

 

The government's lack of end-game plan, or even clear goals for this war is one of the major topics discussed on Israeli and international media. That you allege that there is, in fact, something of the sort, runs counter to reality and general view. There are columns detailing how Netanyahu dodges and refuses to discuss this, about various ministers and politicians airing all sort of comments (sometime contradictory) and about the IDF complaints that the lack of direction makes the war effort troublesome.

 

So back to square one - your opinions, beliefs and conjecture - nothing more.

 

 

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Why did you edit out the posts (your own posts...) that I was replying to?

 

And as said, you've got nothing but a bunch of assumptions and opinions, some of which are on less than solid ground.

 

The main thrust of your edited out comments was an implication of an ethnic cleansing intent/effort by Israel.

 

You have not produced anything serious as support on the previous posts, you do not present such now.

 

The bombing seen as excessive? That's not by itself a support for what you allege. You can pin in on a whole lot of other reasons, issues, agendas.

 

And 'moderates' participation in government helping their future political prospects? Very debatable. There are views that this may actually harm them, and serve Netanyahu. Asserting 'overwhelmingly likely that their thinking has changed' - carries little weight, just your opinion. Current polls continue to be very much negative to Netnayahu and the right in general. Considering the votes were almost evenly split last time, there isn't such a huge gap to close or anything.

 

People stayed on in the North of the Gaza Strip. There is no further attempt to dislodge them, even as sporadic fighting is still going on there. If this was about what you allege, there would be efforts to do exactly that. With regard to the Central areas of the Gaza Strip, they were basically hopped over after the hostage exchanges and the collapse of the 'ceasefire'/'pause'. The reason being that the clock started to tick (or seemed to, whatever) with regard to USA support and time left to operate. A move in the south of the Gaza Strip, where more Hamas forces are located was prioritized. If what you allege was a main concern it would make very little sense leaving a mass of population at the center of the Gaza Strip. Doesn't add up.

 

Rafah is on the border with Egypt. If Israel wanted to do as you claim, they'd have to 'motivate' people who escaped there to leave and cross over. That did not happen. To clarify, Rafah is a town/city - it's not just the border pass.

 

Sending in ground troops implies Israeli casualties. Israelis are kinda soft on that. If the only purpose was to drive away the Palestinians, it would not have required a ground operation, or rather, troops could have moved in at a much later stage - thus avoiding casualties. Your 'vengeance' point is, again, a matter of opinion you inject to the argument, nothing more. Given that this is about policy, not very convincing.

 

Your last point is nonsense. The more destruction the more effort it would be to rule and manage the Gaza Strip. The more death, the less cooperation from international community.

 

The government's lack of end-game plan, or even clear goals for this war is one of the major topics discussed on Israeli and international media. That you allege that there is, in fact, something of the sort, runs counter to reality and general view. There are columns detailing how Netanyahu dodges and refuses to discuss this, about various ministers and politicians airing all sort of comments (sometime contradictory) and about the IDF complaints that the lack of direction makes the war effort troublesome.

 

So back to square one - your opinions, beliefs and conjecture - nothing more.

 

 

Israel Quietly Pushed for Egypt to Admit Large Numbers of Gazans
The Israeli government has not publicly called for large numbers of Gazans to move to Egypt. But in private, diplomats say, it has pushed for just that — augmenting Palestinian fears of a permanent expulsion.

https://archive.ph/SE8z6

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/world/middleeast/israel-egypt-gaza.html

 

Intelligence Ministry ‘concept paper’ proposes transferring Gazans to Egypt’s Sinai
Prime Minister’s Office plays down document as hypothetical, non-binding, though Netanyahu reported to be lobbying EU governments to pressure Egypt to take in refugees

https://www.timesofisrael.com/intelligence-ministry-concept-paper-proposes-transferring-gazans-to-egypts-sinai/

 

As time goes by the pressure to do something will grow even stronger. You really believe that members of the Israeli government aren't aware of how the massive destruction of infrastructure can play out? Those people may be many things, but stupid isn't one of them.