CRS requierements, when/if new tax situation chamges

[thlook]

Hi , not sure if this is right thread,

 

Allowing that the Tax laws get implemented and CRS info is exchanged I was wondering how do we comply , I currently use the , no income derived in Thailand and no TIN issued.

 

1) Will the banks continue to accept this ?

 

2) Would getting a Thai elite visa change anything ?    -- any having one at the moment , any first hand comments would be appreciated

 

3) Can you still be based in Thailand for less than 180 days  so as not to be liable for Thai tax , is there a work around for then completing CRS forms

 

Basing all this on non USA tax basis

[ukrules]

What do you think CRS is?

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, ukrules said:

What do you think CRS is?

Child Restraint System?

[Felton Jarvis]

28 minutes ago, ukrules said:

What do you think CRS is?

The use of acronyms without definitions should be banned.

[Lemsta69]

2 hours ago, Felton Jarvis said:

The use of acronyms without definitions should be banned.

 

Everyone should know what CRS means by now because it is brought up frequently in the other tax-related threads. 

 

This is clearly a tax-related thread so pointless being here if you're not up to speed.

 

As to the OP's question, sorry bro but i have neither the time nor the inclination to give you the tl;dr, you'll have to locate the other tax threads and grind through the hundred plus pages yourself.

[Lite Beer]

.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Lite Beer

[Caldera]

How many more tax threads running in parallel within the visa forum do we need?

 

Keep it in the right place at least, it's mostly a combination of nonsensical speculation and fear mongering anyway at this point.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Caldera

[topt]

5 hours ago, thlook said:

3) Can you still be based in Thailand for less than 180 days  so as not to be liable for Thai tax

You are only tax resident here if spending 180 days or more in Thailand across a calendar year. So simplistically yes.

5 hours ago, thlook said:

is there a work around for then completing CRS forms

What CRS forms?

Do you mean your home country banks asking for details of tax residency or something else?

 

CRS is something completely separate to the proposed change to the Thai tax rules. 

[Maestro]

3 hours ago, ukrules said:

What do you think CRS is?

 

CRS = CRS - Definition by AcronymFinder.pdf

[Maestro]

Most likely, the OP used CRS with the meaning of "Common Reporting Standard (taxation; Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development)
 

Quote

 

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS), developed in response to the G20 request and approved by the OECD Council on 15 July 2014, calls on jurisdictions to obtain information from their financial institutions and automatically exchange that information with other jurisdictions on an annual basis.

 

Source: https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/common-reporting-standard/#:~:text=The Common Reporting Standard (CRS,jurisdictions on an annual basis.

[topt]

4 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

CRS = CRS - Definition by AcronymFinder.pdf

I think ukrules well knows what it is in this context. The issue is does the OP.........?

[Maestro]

CRS would seem to have been the reason why, many years ago, my local tax office in Switzerland called me out of the blue to tell me that I appeared to have omitted to declare the interest paid on my bank account with a US broker and perhaps also the dividends I got paid. 

 

After reading on this forum that Thailand recently decided to join this reporting system I am now contemplating whether I should proactively start to declare my Thai bank accounts and the interest payments received in my tax return next year for the year 2023 or wait instead for a phone call from the Swiss tax office similar to the one I got about my US account. 

 

I hate to have to make these decisions.

[Srikcir]

7 hours ago, Maestro said:

CRS would seem to have been the reason why, many years ago, my local tax office in Switzerland called me out of the blue to tell me that I appeared to have omitted to declare the interest paid on my bank account with a US broker and perhaps also the dividends I got paid. 

Not giving tax advice but from Wikipedia: 

• "All people resident in Switzerland are liable for the taxation of their worldwide income and assets, except on the income and wealth from foreign business or real estate,[10] or where tax treaties limit double taxation." 

Switzerland has a tax treaty with the US and Thailand.

[CartagenaWarlock]

Everybody living in Thailand for more than 6 months using any dollar-earning refugee visas should be prepared to pay taxes in Thailand. I am assuming the minimum spend for such a person in Thailand is at least 24K USD; that is the requirement for monthly income for such a visa. So, first, 24K USD should be exempt; if not, I will restrict my stay in Thailand to less than 6 months.

[TheFishman1]

Maybe this new tax regulation won’t really be ratified and I’m sure if it is they’ll probably be a lot of loopholes You’ll figure it out. TIT.

[worrab]

In a nutshell, if you remit any finances into Thailand and you live here more than 180 days a year, then you will need to register and obtain a TIN. Then fill in a self assesment form every tax year. Any income taxes paid in UK, for example, will be credited against any Thai tax due. This is IF everything kicks off on Jan 1st.

[Felton Jarvis]

10 hours ago, Lemsta69 said:

 

Everyone should know what CRS means by now because it is brought up frequently in the other tax-related threads. 

 

This is clearly a tax-related thread so pointless being here if you're not up to speed.

 

As to the OP's question, sorry bro but i have neither the time nor the inclination to give you the tl;dr, you'll have to locate the other tax threads and grind through the hundred plus pages yourself.

You have neither the time or the inclination to be civil. Rude bastard.

[freeworld]

15 hours ago, thlook said:

I was wondering how do we comply

You provide your TIN when the banks ask for the info either Thailand and/or your home country.

 

Your visa has nothing to do with crs, the banks will report the financial accounts to the tax office, just as they do in Europe.

 

A DTA outlines how and where one is deemed tax resident, dont think moving around and not being tax resident anywhere exists unless one lives in a completely tax free country.

Edited November 29, 2023 by freeworld

[topt]

6 minutes ago, freeworld said:

A DTA outlines how and where one is deemed tax resident,

Not really.

Tax residency depends on individual rules from each country's revenue service.  As an example Thailand is simply more than 180 days a year but the UK definition is considerably more involved.

Part of the UK/Thailand DTA fiscal domicile definition -

Quote

(1) For the purposes of this Convention, the term "resident of a Contracting State" means, subject to the provisions of paragraphs (2) and (3) of this Article, any person who, under the law of that State, is liable to taxation therein by reason of his domicile, residence, place of management, place of incorporation, or any other criterion of a similar nature.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/507424/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

[freeworld]

8 minutes ago, topt said:

Not really.

Tax residency depends on individual rules from each country's revenue service.  As an example Thailand is simply more than 180 days a year but the UK definition is considerably more involved.

Part of the UK/Thailand DTA fiscal domicile definition -

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/507424/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

Defining Tie-Breaker Rules in DTAs

Tie-breaker rules help tax regulatory authorities in defining tax residency and tax collection procedures. Otherwise, both countries would have a claim on taxes due from an individual or a business.

Some general points regarding tie-breaker tax rules are listed here.

Tie-breaker rules only apply if there is a double tax agreement or treaty between two countries. These rules may apply to individuals and businesses.

The permanent home of the taxpayer is the primary criteria under the tie-breaker rules.

If a tax payer has a permanent residency in both countries, then, tax authorities may need to determine the “center of vital interest” criteria. It means to determine the family, culture, wealth, and other interests of the taxpayer.

If these steps cannot determine the tie-breaker, then the habitual country of residence of the taxpayer is determined.

Both countries can determine tax residency based on the nationality of the taxpayer as well.

Finally, if tax authorities cannot determine tax residency based on the tie-breaker rules, they can mutually agree on the tax collection arrangements of an individual.

 

It also depends if one has financial accounts somewhere earning income and if that income would be subject to tax in the country of it arising/being remitted.

Edited November 29, 2023 by freeworld

[soalbundy]

Stop worrying about tax, even if we have to pay it won't be until March 2025 for tax year 2024, a lot can happen until then, I'm not going to get a TIN until such time or I am told to by the authorities.

[Lemsta69]

2 hours ago, Felton Jarvis said:

You have neither the time or the inclination to be civil. Rude bastard.

 

Simply stating facts. If you spent less time posting drivel and more time actually reading this forum then you wouldn't have needed to leave your pointless complaint about acronyms.

 

It was discussed in some detail in a recent "not another tax topic". Here, I'll spoon feed it to you...

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1312534-taxation-of-ex-pats-pensions-etc/?do=findComment&comment=18510750

[jojothai]

When people mention the CRS, most responses are that its not important and does not matter here in Thailand.
However, I understand from financial advisers that Thailand may implement the requirements very soon.
So they say, get ready.
When the banks here ask for your details for CRS, with Tax ID then you will know when it happens,
just like it happened in many countries years ago.
From then if you are tax resident (over 180 days) you probably have a year to do something.
In the west they gave a few reminders before telling us they would have to freeze / close the account if the details were not given.

 

If you do not have a Thai bank account or financial account here then you do not need to worry.
However, for the UK expats getting paid their pension here into a Thai bank and declaring it for visa, then you need to start considering the tax situation because there is no double tax treaty unless you are on civil service pension.

 

However, for those on small pensions such as the state pension over 65 should not worry.
The tax allowances 2023 were allowed expenses 100k, personal allowance 60k, over 65 190K. 
total 350K, which is not far off the state pension amount 
Then the assessable income up to 150 K has zero tax. So you can be bringing in 500 K without having any tax.
So If we look at the visa situation with requirement for 800K per annum then the thai tax will be approx 
Assessable income 800k - 350k allowances = 450K 

150k at  5%  =   7500

150k at 10% = 15,000

Total 22, 500 baht on the 800 k = 0.028 %.

I know its extra money to pay, but this information should give retired pension people over 65 retired here some better understanding of what may happen when they have to get the thai tax ID. 
 

 

 

[soi3eddie]

11 minutes ago, jojothai said:

When people mention the CRS, most responses are that its not important and does not matter here in Thailan

Thailand started reporting CRS in June 2023 to all countries part of the system. Thai banks will report your details to your "home" country. Without your permission. No hiding all that huge interest on savings accounts now! 555

 

[jojothai]

7 minutes ago, soi3eddie said:

Thailand started reporting CRS in June 2023 to all countries part of the system. Thai banks will report your details to your "home" country. Without your permission. No hiding all that huge interest on savings accounts now! 555

 

Thailand is supposed to start the requirements from September 2023.
The requirements for reporting are not many, but must include your TIN.
My bank has not requested it, so they are not yet starting to comply with the requirements. TIT.

There is no sharing of the data with other countries until there is an agreement following implementation of the CRS.
No Tax ID, then the data is no use.  
As i said earlier, the bank will request the data. Then you know that you have to consider what to do.

Go to the following to see what agreements have been made for your home country.
https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/international-framework-for-the-crs/exchange-relationships/

 

Thailand has made 47 agreements, but not yet including the UK. or the USA.
However exchange of data is no use until Thai banks start to get the TINs from people.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

9 minutes ago, jojothai said:

 

 

Thailand has made 47 agreements, but not yet including the UK. or the USA.
However exchange of data is no use until Thai banks start to get the TINs from people.

I don't think the US participates in the CRS program.

 

Instead, the US has FATCA. Thai banks have been collecting Social Security numbers on W-9 forms from US persons and sending account information via the Thai government to the IRS for a number of years now. 

[ukrules]

Should I open a 'Marshall Islands' company with bank account?

[jojothai]

18 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

I don't think the US participates in the CRS program.

 

Instead, the US has FATCA. Thai banks have been collecting Social Security numbers on W-9 forms from US persons and sending account information via the Thai government to the IRS for a number of years now. 

You are correct.

The USA is not on the list of participating countries.

However, as you point out they have other ways of getting information.

[Cardano]

19 hours ago, jojothai said:

When people mention the CRS, most responses are that its not important and does not matter here in Thailand.
However, I understand from financial advisers that Thailand may implement the requirements very soon.
So they say, get ready.
When the banks here ask for your details for CRS, with Tax ID then you will know when it happens,
just like it happened in many countries years ago.
From then if you are tax resident (over 180 days) you probably have a year to do something.
In the west they gave a few reminders before telling us they would have to freeze / close the account if the details were not given.

 

If you do not have a Thai bank account or financial account here then you do not need to worry.
However, for the UK expats getting paid their pension here into a Thai bank and declaring it for visa, then you need to start considering the tax situation because there is no double tax treaty unless you are on civil service pension.

 

However, for those on small pensions such as the state pension over 65 should not worry.
The tax allowances 2023 were allowed expenses 100k, personal allowance 60k, over 65 190K. 
total 350K, which is not far off the state pension amount 
Then the assessable income up to 150 K has zero tax. So you can be bringing in 500 K without having any tax.
So If we look at the visa situation with requirement for 800K per annum then the thai tax will be approx 
Assessable income 800k - 350k allowances = 450K 

150k at  5%  =   7500

150k at 10% = 15,000

Total 22, 500 baht on the 800 k = 0.028 %.

I know its extra money to pay, but this information should give retired pension people over 65 retired here some better understanding of what may happen when they have to get the thai tax ID. 
 

 

 

2.8%

[jojothai]

17 minutes ago, Cardano said:

2.8%

Yes, my error. Should have been 0.028 without the percentage.