PEA Regulation question

[MJCM]

We are finally doing up the property next door we bought several years ago

 

The current electric is how can I put it nicely

Current Supply is via 5/15 meter but we intend to get it upgraded to a 15/45 meter.

 

A couple of questions please

 

1- What size cable does PEA want to see from the Meter to the House (distance approx 20 meters) is that 25mm² or 16mm²

And must it be copper or alu?

2- What size Main breaker do I need to get for the 5/15 supply (I was thinking of getting such a ready made consumer unit)?

 

TiA

 

 

[Crossy]

Check with your sparks or the local PEA office, they seem to be as variable as immigration when it comes to rules

 

I'd go for 16mm² Cu or 25mm² Al to be safe.

 

On a 5/15 it really should be a 20A incomer but since you are going to upgrade anyway ...

[MJCM]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

On a 5/15 it really should be a 20A incomer but since you are going to upgrade anyway ...

 

I have no idea if such a (pre-fab) CU exists, but just in case I will also go for the setup of an incomer (can the incomer size be greater then the one from the MAIN CU?)

[Crossy]

A separate isolator can have a bigger rating then the main MCB in the CU (which provides the overload protection).

 

It really serves only to isolate the whole installation for safe working.

[MJCM]

13 minutes ago, Crossy said:

It really serves only to isolate the whole installation for safe working.

 

Yep that is the reason why I want to put one in, during our solar install that was a main deal breaker (and also one of the reasons why it took so long) because we did not have the Isolator, so in this house I want to put 1 in standard from the start.

[MJCM]

Update: We talked to the PEA (finally) and they said

 

- 25mm² Alu is sufficient to the house from the Meter

- isolator can max be 50A same as MCB (max 50A)

 

YMMV

 

Edit: Did not go with a ready made Box, but went again with Schneider Boxes

with the MCB (CU) will be 50A RCBO

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by MJCM

[Crossy]

It's possible that the PEA chaps don't really understand the concept of an "isolator" (just a switch with no over-current protection) as they are pretty well unheard of here.

 

[MJCM]

3 minutes ago, Crossy said:

It's possible that the PEA chaps don't really understand the concept of an "isolator" (just a switch with no over-current protection) as they are pretty well unheard of here.

 

 

But IMHO no issues as 50A is more then enough for the current setup as for example no aircon's (the niece who will live in the house doesn't want it) and only a Water Heater of 4500W. (secured with a 32A RCBO).

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by MJCM

[Crossy]

The only issue with having two 50A MCBs in series is knowing which one will open first.

 

It's poor engineering practice but is no hazard.

[MJCM]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

The only issue with having two 50A MCBs in series is knowing which one will open first.

 

It's poor engineering practice but is no hazard.

 

The one in the CU is RCBO as well. Issue? (B....dy expensive that one)

 

Edit: Will wait till the PEA has left and install a 63A in the "isolator" but need to wait for a power outage 5555555555555555

Edited December 8, 2023 by MJCM

[Crossy]

5 minutes ago, MJCM said:

The one in the CU is RCBO as well. Issue? (B....dy expensive that one)

 

Nope. All will be fine.

 

The leakage section is more likely to be the cause of a trip anyway (damp or ants in a fitting).

 

[MJCM]

14 minutes ago, Crossy said:

The leakage section is more likely to be the cause of a trip anyway (damp or ants in a fitting).

That is the reason (in our current house) we did go with a "normal" MCB and all individual RCBO's. So in a case of a trip only one of the circuits trips and NOT the main MCB which causes the whole house to be out of power. But this with Schneider was ... expensive.

 

Edit: Current House CU (stickers need work 555555555555)

Ps: We only had one trip in all the years that we are here (2+) and that was because of a faulty extension lead)

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by MJCM

[MJCM]

Update:

 

The PEA meter has been moved closer to the house and next week (even before the house is finished) we will get the new meter which is (unfortunately) a digital meter but has the range 5/100A.

 

How come it went so fast, one of the workers knows the guys who do the install personally and so he came over and did the move. He will also arrange the move and the new meter without that we have to go to the PEA office (for a small fee of course)

 

The PEA guy also agreed to the 63A in the "isolator" (he definitely knows what it is as we showed him the proposed layout). We even can go with a 63A in the MAIN CU, but that would mean to go in the Return process (not online) with the Shop we bought it from (and as it was a special order so that will be difficult). So we leave the 50A MCB RCBO in the CU.

[MJCM]

Update:

 

House next door is 95% finished and the new Electronic Meter 5/100A has been installed by the PEA. No inspection by them of the electrical installation.

 

We changed the Main MCB (50A) in the CU from a RCBO to a Normal one. We got some tripping which the Sparky solved, but because the MAIN one, when it trips, causes the whole house to be out of Power we changed it and thus changed the relevant (individual) ones from a Normal one to RCBO, so that only those circuits will trip and NOT the whole house will be out of power.

Edited January 31 by MJCM

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, MJCM said:

House next door is 95% finished and the new Electronic Meter 5/100A has been installed by the PEA. No inspection by them of the electrical installation.

 

Is that place still on a Construction Supply (8-ish Baht per unit) or normal supply (5-ish Baht per unit)?

 

The inspection usually happens when switching to a normal supply from a construction supply.

 

[MJCM]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Is that place still on a Construction Supply (8-ish Baht per unit) or normal supply (5-ish Baht per unit)?

 

The inspection usually happens when switching to a normal supply from a construction supply.

 

 

It was never on construction supply, it was an existing house we bought from our Neighbour and the OLD PEA meter was a 5/15A one.

The house was fitted with very outdated electrical components. So we upgraded the Electrical System to Schneider with RCBO and an "isolator" and we asked the PEA to place the Meter closer to the house and upgrade the meter to a 15/45A (in case we want to install aircon)

 

Meter move was done early December and yesterday the new electronic meter (as they don't supply the old meters any more) was installed (which is a 5/100A one)

Edited January 31 by MJCM

[Crossy]

4 minutes ago, MJCM said:

It was never on construction supply, it was an existing house we bought from our Neighbour and the OLD PEA meter was a 5/15A one.

 

That probably explains the lack of an inspection. The man probably possibly might have didn't bother checked that the meter tails (wires to the house) are suitable for the supply you requested (15/45) and went home 🙂 

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, MJCM said:

We changed the Main MCB (50A) in the CU from a RCBO to a Normal one. We got some tripping which the Sparky solved, but because the MAIN one, when it trips, causes the whole house to be out of Power we changed it and thus changed the relevant (individual) ones from a Normal one to RCBO, so that only those circuits will trip and NOT the whole house will be out of power.

It sounds as if you still have all or most circuits protected by RCBOs, I’d so then not using a whole house RCBO is no problem.

There is certainly one circuit that probably should not have an RCBO on it and that is the one that has the refrigerator and freezer on it. Personally I have 3 zones with RCBOs and I haven’t got a fridge/freezer unprotected circuit, but I should have.

[MJCM]

39 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It sounds as if you still have all or most circuits protected by RCBOs, I’d so then not using a whole house RCBO is no problem.

There is certainly one circuit that probably should not have an RCBO on it and that is the one that has the refrigerator and freezer on it. Personally I have 3 zones with RCBOs and I haven’t got a fridge/freezer unprotected circuit, but I should have.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear enough but we changed the relevant ones to be RCBO (from normal ones).

 

So the previous situation was:

 

MAIN MCB = RCBO

Single ones = NON RCBO

 

New Situation

 

MAIN MCB = NON RCBO

relevant Single ones = RCBO

other ones = NON RCBO (amongst them the fridge)

Edited January 31 by MJCM

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, MJCM said:

 

Maybe I wasn't clear enough but we changed the relevant ones to be RCBO (from normal ones).

 

So the previous situation was:

 

MAIN MCB = RCBO

Single ones = NON RCBO

 

New Situation

 

MAIN MCB = NON RCBO

relevant Single ones = RCBO

other ones = NON RCBO (amongst them the fridge)

That (apart from the unprotected fridge) was as I understood.

[brianthainess]

When my house was finished, the only things PEA checked was the cable to house from meter 75meters, it had been taped that had to be changed to clamps, the short run of underground cable changed from alum to 'proper' underground copper wire, earth rod, and to where it went through the wall to the power board. That was it. never even went inside the house, seems that was all they were responsible for. Inside was not their problem 🙄

[bluejets]

On 1/31/2024 at 8:52 PM, brianthainess said:

changed from alum to 'proper' underground copper wire

Are you aware this requires the use of dedicated bi-metal crimp links ..??

[brianthainess]

1 hour ago, bluejets said:

Are you aware this requires the use of dedicated bi-metal crimp links ..??

It was one length of about 10m from the pole just outside my property to the power board so no crimps needed. my electrician  had used normal alum cable underground, which he had always used on many builds before and PEA had passed, one month after his last build, they had changed the law. 

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, brianthainess said:

It was one length of about 10m from the pole just outside my property to the power board so no crimps needed. my electrician  had used normal alum cable underground, which he had always used on many builds before and PEA had passed, one month after his last build, they had changed the law. 

 

Yup, no aluminium underground (for domestic and light-industrial). PEA / MEA can, of course, use what they like underground

[brianthainess]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

 

Yup, no aluminium underground (for domestic and light-industrial). PEA / MEA can, of course, use what they like underground

For Domestic it changed in my area 2016.

[bluejets]

21 hours ago, brianthainess said:

It was one length of about 10m from the pole just outside my property to the power board so no crimps needed. my electrician  had used normal alum cable underground, which he had always used on many builds before and PEA had passed, one month after his last build, they had changed the law. 

 So what is this all about.....???

On 1/31/2024 at 8:52 PM, brianthainess said:

the short run of underground cable changed from alum to 'proper' underground copper wire

 

One thing said one minute, entirely different the next.

 

If it means you changed the whole run in one piece I guess it makes sense but it can read either way.

[Muhendis]

On 12/8/2023 at 4:53 PM, Crossy said:

It's possible that the PEA chaps don't really understand the concept of an "isolator" (just a switch with no over-current protection) as they are pretty well unheard of here.

 

That's possibly true but in our village many houses have these monstrosities.

This fella is good for 100A short circuit current.

[Encid]

On 1/31/2024 at 6:52 PM, brianthainess said:

When my house was finished, the only things PEA checked was the cable to house from meter 75meters, it had been taped that had to be changed to clamps, the short run of underground cable changed from alum to 'proper' underground copper wire, earth rod, and to where it went through the wall to the power board. That was it. never even went inside the house, seems that was all they were responsible for. Inside was not their problem 🙄

 

We had a meeting with the PEA district office in Prathai last Monday who are refusing to change over our perfectly functioning temporary meter and power supply from "temporary" to "residential".

The rate difference is 4 vs 8 baht per unit.

Apparently they have a "rule" that they failed to disclose to us when we paid for our temporary meter... the house must not be more than 40m from the meter, so you were luck being 75m away.

We are 720m from the meter across privately owned farm land, so they want us to pay for more poles on a public road (which has not yet been built) and 70,000 baht for a new transformer.

The PEA was most unhelpful even though I could prove to them that even over such a large distance we only experienced noticeable voltage drops when our 4.5kW electric water heater was being used for showers... everything else worked fine.

My solar self-sufficiency plan might have to be accelerated... 

 

@MJCM My apologies for going off-topic a bit, but I thought I'd give readers an opportunity to be aware of another PEA "regulation".

[brianthainess]

3 minutes ago, Encid said:

We are 720m from the meter across privately owned farm land

And there is your problem. How do gain access to your house? 

[Crossy]

@Encid maybe some, er, lubrication, is required?

 

40m is not very far, so that "rule" does seem somewhat arbitrary, we must be pretty close to that "limit".