Living in Thailand using only ATM money for more than 6-months - tax consequences

[bradiston]

40 minutes ago, MJCM said:

Here a topic about THB balances and jars at Wise

 

 

The screenshot is simply telling you how much the transfer is worth in THB. It has nothing to do with a THB account.

[acepredator]

On 12/2/2023 at 10:18 PM, Gottfrid said:

If you do t that way. No tax will fall on you. Same I have done lately. All my money goes to a Cambodian account. After that a card attached. Unlimited spending and works in Thai ATMs

 

A Cambodian bank account. Brilliant. Why didn't I think of that? I only have an account with Citibank in New York City, the financial epicenter of the world, which I'm sure is much riskier than an account in Cambodia. I'll close my Citibank account immediately and open an account in Phnom Penh. No chance that those honest and incorruptible Cambodians will misappropriate or mishandle my money, unlike those greedy, incompetent, and dishonest New Yorkers. Thanks so much for inspiring me to make such a sagacious and intelligent financial move, as you have done. 

[CartagenaWarlock]

27 minutes ago, acepredator said:

A Cambodian bank account. Brilliant. Why didn't I think of that? I only have an account with Citibank in New York City, the financial epicenter of the world, which I'm sure is much riskier than an account in Cambodia. I'll close my Citibank account immediately and open an account in Phnom Penh. No chance that those honest and incorruptible Cambodians will misappropriate or mishandle my money, unlike those greedy, incompetent, and dishonest New Yorkers. Thanks so much for inspiring me to make such a sagacious and intelligent financial move, as you have done. 

I did not understand this Cambodian bank account gig. If ATM withdrawals are not taxed, It really does not matter what bank account (Cambodia or the US) you use to withdraw your money in Thailand

[acepredator]

2 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

I did not understand this Cambodian bank account gig. If ATM withdrawals are not taxed, It really does not matter what bank account (Cambodia or the US) you use to withdraw your money in Thailand

Very true. The key question is, however, would you rather trust your money to a bank in New York or one in Phnom Penh? The issue is not about what will be taxed here in Thailand, as ATM withdrawals from either bank, presumably, will be tax free. The issue, at least to me, is the safety and security of my money. It just seems obvious that a bank in just about any country in the world would be more trustworthy than one in Cambodia.   

[DogNo1]

This may be a confusing tax season for Americans.  Thailand may asses a tax for any money brought into the country.   I don't know of any category for deducting that amount from my US taxes.   I've done many returns deducting Japanese tax charged on the amount of income over the standard amount that I could deduct from my Japanese income but that was on income, not personal savings.  The money that I spend in Thailand for my miscellaneous expenses is from money saved after paying the American tax due on it.   The various tax treaties pertain to earned income, not saved money.   I don't think that there is any way to deduct freely spent saved money from US taxes.  We can't deduct VAT paid here.  I don't think that there is a way to deduct an extra "resident tax" that will be paid in Thailand.   I'll question Turbotax but I doubt that they will have an answer.  Paying a resident tax, VAT and importation taxes to live in Thailand is a bit much but if I were to return to California to live, that would cost me even more in taxes.

[jerrymahoney]

Just to note that Article 20 of the US-Thailand DTA uses the language "taxable only in that State" i.e. there are categories of income that can only be taxed in the US whether they are taxed there or not.

[CartagenaWarlock]

4 hours ago, DogNo1 said:

if I were to return to California to live, that would cost me even more in taxes.

And in Texas, you won't pay any state taxes. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by CartagenaWarlock

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Just to note that Article 20 of the US-Thailand DTA uses the language "taxable only in that State" i.e. there are categories of income that can only be taxed in the US whether they are taxed there or not.

Subject to Paragraph 2 of Article 21 .............

Have you read that ? What does it say??

[jerrymahoney]

29 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Subject to Paragraph 2 of Article 21 .............

Have you read that ? What does it say??

Yes - doesn't apply to me.

[Robin]

I have just transferred a sum to Thailand, that I hope will last me the year, or more with care, by then this might have been resolve and some loophole or exemption available for us retirees..

I found that Kasikorn bank questions every transfer over a set sum, I think 200,000 Baht.  I aske my bank manager about paying tax on incoming transfers and she knew of no proposals to do this.

When at Immigration, doin 90 day, I also asked if hey were keeping track of farangs staying more than 180 days, to get the to pay tax.  The I/O had no idea what i was talking about.

if this tx is going to happen, it seems that many relevant people who will be collecting it have not yet been told what is going on, so expect Chaos when it starts, if ever.

What might be useful , just in case, is the address of a 'Tax Consultant' who can help filling in the relevant from.

My wife does not pay any tax on her earning from rice growing or her beauty shop.  She tells me that if I have to pay tax the Tax dept. will come to visit me..

Somehow, I cannot imagine how Thailand can make this work, when the majority of Thais do not pay any taxes, except VAT on puchases.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

20 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Yes - doesn't apply to me.

What     Does     It     Say ??

You quoted verbatim a small part - as proof of your claim - what does it say?

[jerrymahoney]

20 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

What     Does     It     Say ??

You quoted verbatim a small part - as proof of your claim - what does it say?

[Gottfrid]

10 hours ago, acepredator said:

A Cambodian bank account. Brilliant. Why didn't I think of that? I only have an account with Citibank in New York City, the financial epicenter of the world, which I'm sure is much riskier than an account in Cambodia. I'll close my Citibank account immediately and open an account in Phnom Penh. No chance that those honest and incorruptible Cambodians will misappropriate or mishandle my money, unlike those greedy, incompetent, and dishonest New Yorkers. Thanks so much for inspiring me to make such a sagacious and intelligent financial move, as you have done. 

Thanks for you deep sarcasm. Still wet behind the ears, I would assume. Did I ever talk about closing any other bank accounts? Did I ever say that you move all your money too Cambodia?

The only thing you are right about is that I make intelligent financial moves. That has made me totally solid for life. So, yeah, I am pretty happy. However, you seem to have big problems.

[BE88]

In my opinion, apart from all the research to circumvent a tax on which we still know nothing apart from the amounts we would have to pay, the issue will be very simple.

 

If you reside more than 180 days in Thailand I should submit a tax return, but if you already pay tax on your income in another country I should submit a copy of your foreign return. If you don't present either one I simply won't get your visa renewed.

[treetops]

14 hours ago, bradiston said:

Which makes me careful about sending foreign currency to my Thai bank accounts, as getting it out again via Wise is impossible. I have to use Dee.

 

Historically it may have been difficult, hence the use of Dee Money, but there are numerous reports now of people sending money out via their bank's website  or mobile app.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 hours ago, DogNo1 said:

I don't think that there is any way to deduct freely spent saved money from US taxes.

 

The U.S. tax returns have a section for "foreign taxes" paid. Every year, I enter into that section the Thai taxes that are deducted from my Thai bank accounts for interest earned here.... And that amount is then a credit on my U.S. return.

 

If the Thai authorities were somehow to conclude that I owed them taxes on other funds I bring into Thailand each year, even though the U.S.  and Thailand have a tax agreement against double taxation, presumably I'd enter any Thai tax paid there as well.

 

and fyi, that done via doing my annual taxes via TurboTax online.

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[bradiston]

4 minutes ago, treetops said:

 

Historically it may have been difficult, hence the use of Dee Money, but there are numerous reports now of people sending money out via their bank's website  or mobile app.

I was referring to Wise. I've never tried transferring from a THB account in a Thai bank to a bank outside Thailand.

[treetops]

1 minute ago, bradiston said:

I was referring to Wise. I've never tried transferring from a THB account in a Thai bank to a bank outside Thailand.

 

My answer was in response to the "you have to use Dee" in your post, but to add to this, you're right and you still can't use Wise to transfer money out of Thailand.

 

I think you have misunderstood what MJCM was talking about in the earlier discussion.  I only use Wise for their transfer service but it's possible to hold money with Wise in several currencies including Thai Baht.  This can then be transferred to other currencies or your bank account in Thailand (or elsewhere) freely.  The key point (I believe) is that any balances can not be funded from THB deposits.  The deposits must be made from another approved currency but once in Wise can be changed from one currency to another at will.

 

Does that make more sense?

[CartagenaWarlock]

5 hours ago, BE88 said:

either one I simply won't get your visa renewed.

If it's only a matter of visa renewal, an agent will happily fix it. Agents don't need any documents now except your passport. They don't care about your entry visa, like O, OA, or other letters. 

[MJCM]

28 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

If it's only a matter of visa renewal, an agent will happily fix it. Agents don't need any documents now except your passport. They don't care about your entry visa, like O, OA, or other letters. 

 

The way I read it what he wrote was about if you don't pay taxes abroad or in Thailand, get the ..... out of Thailand (re: don't get your visa renewed).

 

But I could be wrong

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

7 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Thanks. Looks like you are covered - not the same in the Thai Australia DTA.

australia : article 16-20 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

 

[BE88]

1 hour ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

If it's only a matter of visa renewal, an agent will happily fix it. Agents don't need any documents now except your passport. They don't care about your entry visa, like O, OA, or other letters. 

 

1) Why should I use an agent when I am in good standing for bank deposit?

 

2) How confident are you in stating anything that you are not yet aware of how this new taxation rule will be applied?

 

3) Trying to invent your own world does not resolve the issues that everyone expects and that only the Thai government can provide.

 

[CartagenaWarlock]

Just now, BE88 said:

Why should I use an agent when I am in good standing for bank deposit?

If you have 800K in the bank, earning a meagre amount, so be it. You don't have to do anything. But some people earn more by investing and then use an agent to spread a portion of their earnings among unfortunates who do not have access to dollars.

 

[acepredator]

10 hours ago, Gottfrid said:

Thanks for you deep sarcasm. Still wet behind the ears, I would assume. Did I ever talk about closing any other bank accounts? Did I ever say that you move all your money too Cambodia?

The only thing you are right about is that I make intelligent financial moves. That has made me totally solid for life. So, yeah, I am pretty happy. However, you seem to have big problems.

Thanks for picking up on my deep sarcasm. Very impressive for a non-native English speaker. If by "wet behind the ears" you mean young and naive, the answer is negative. If you mean old and gullible, then I must reply in the affirmative. For example, I recently lent 250,000 baht to a Thai lady I met on the street. She promised to sell her house and three rai of land in Lamphun and repay me. That was three years ago, and I'm still waiting for my money. Maybe old and stupid would be a better description. When will I ever learn that when a Thai promises to repay a loan, you would have been better off buying lottery tickets because the money you lent is gone forever. If you see me begging in the street sometime soon, please show the kindness and compassion to give me a little spare change, or maybe a 20 baht note. 

 

As for my other problems, there's IBS (irritable bowel syndrome), BPH (benign prostatic hyperplasia), adult onset scoliosis of the spine, etc. etc. etc. Yes, I know. That's way more than anybody cares to know. My point is that if you are truly solid for life, both financially and physically, then you are indeed an extremely fortunate individual. The vast majority of people struggling to survive on this miserable, wretched planet cannot say the same thing. But don't take it for granted. We are all only one motorbike or car accident away from being much less solid for life, at least physically, and probably financially as well. Best of luck in the future to you and your family.

 

[jerrymahoney]

9 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

But some people earn more by investing and then use an agent to spread a portion of their earnings among unfortunates who do not have access to dollars.

Such altruism.

[BE88]

11 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

If you have 800K in the bank, earning a meagre amount, so be it. You don't have to do anything. But some people earn more by investing and then use an agent to spread a portion of their earnings among unfortunates who do not have access to dollars.

 

 

Whaooo I fell for the genius of finance, so tell me by calculating that you have to pay 30,000 B. to your agent how much benefit do you make on 800,000 B.?

 

[rhodie]

30 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

Whaooo I fell for the genius of finance, so tell me by calculating that you have to pay 30,000 B. to your agent how much benefit do you make on 800,000 B.?

 

I pay 12,500 to agent that includes 1,900 to immigration. Last year my investment made 9% tax free. So my 800,000 earned 72,000. Just a bit more than the 10,400 I payed the agent. Certainly worth it for me. YMMV.

[CartagenaWarlock]

8 minutes ago, BE88 said:

Whaooo I fell for the genius of finance, so tell me by calculating that you have to pay 30,000 B. to your agent how much benefit do you make on 800,000 B.?

At 5%, you do the calculation. S&P is running at 15%. And you don't pay 30K. It is only 12.5K in Pattaya. And the satisfaction you get from spreading your wealth to unfortunates who, no fault of their own, are not able to access dollars. And that is priceless.

Edited December 6, 2023 by CartagenaWarlock

[BE88]

12 minutes ago, rhodie said:

I pay 12,500 to agent that includes 1,900 to immigration. Last year my investment made 9% tax free. So my 800,000 earned 72,000. Just a bit more than the 10,400 I payed the agent. Certainly worth it for me. YMMV.

 

11 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

At 5%, you do the calculation. S&P is running at 15%. And you don't pay 30K. It is only 12.5K in Pattaya. And the satisfaction you get from spreading your wealth to unfortunates who, no fault of their own, are not able to access dollars. And that is priceless.

 

Investment means risk and the more profits you receive the more risks, so one day you may no longer have your money to guarantee your visa and not even the money to pay your agent.

Good luck.

 

For me, peace of mind comes at a price and I'm willing to pay it.

[rhodie]

2 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

 

Investment means risk and the more profits you receive the more risks, so one day you may no longer have your money to guarantee your visa and not even the money to pay your agent.

Good luck.

 

For me, peace of mind comes at a price and I'm willing to pay it.

If you believe your money in a Thai bank is more secure than my investment in the West, go for it. I have more peace of mind with my investment than I have with Thai banks.