The Problem With EVs

[josephbloggs]

Just thought I would share this - a series of three articles, each one tackling a different "problem".  Subject are "range anxiety (should you worry about getting stranded)", "the dirty EV mining industry", and "the fire risk of EVs". 

 

I thought they were pretty well balanced and fair. Would be keen to hear feedback from any open minded anti-EV posters.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/series/ev-mythbusters

 

(Yeah yeah, the Guardian, lefty liberal, pushing the woke agenda, blah blah)

[Photoguy21]

Apparently production of EV creates 4x more pollution than ICE vehicles. There are a number of articles from reliable sources if you look on the internet. I would not have an EV for the following reasons:

1. Range anxiety - Tesla have been shown to exaggerate the range of their vehicles and it appears there is legal action in the USA as a result of this.

2. The cost is prohibitive compared to an ICE vehicle

3. There is no assurance that charging points are available for a long distance drive. There may be point but are they functional? Plus the frustration if you are on a long drive with young children.

4. Trade in value will be minimal

[JBChiangRai]

6 minutes ago, Photoguy21 said:

Apparently production of EV creates 4x more pollution than ICE vehicles. There are a number of articles from reliable sources if you look on the internet. I would not have an EV for the following reasons:

1. Range anxiety - Tesla have been shown to exaggerate the range of their vehicles and it appears there is legal action in the USA as a result of this.

2. The cost is prohibitive compared to an ICE vehicle

3. There is no assurance that charging points are available for a long distance drive. There may be point but are they functional? Plus the frustration if you are on a long drive with young children.

4. Trade in value will be minimal

 

Did you even read the link the OP provided?

 

 

[Photoguy21]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Did you even read the link the OP provided?

 

 

Yes I did. What part didnt you understand?

[josephbloggs]

15 minutes ago, Photoguy21 said:

Apparently production of EV creates 4x more pollution than ICE vehicles. There are a number of articles from reliable sources if you look on the internet. I would not have an EV for the following reasons:

 

1. Range anxiety - Tesla have been shown to exaggerate the range of their vehicles and it appears there is legal action in the USA as a result of this.

Range anxiety is real. I don't own an EV but I borrowed one for three days for a road trip. I was constantly wondering if the readout was accurate, but actually it was amazingly accurate. (You enter your destination and it tells you how much battery/range you will have when you arrive and also how much you would have left if you chose to drive straight back.). It was a Volvo, not a Tesla, I don't know anything about them exaggerating - what my car showed was accurate. However it all depends on driving style and other factors, just like you never seem to get the mpg advertised. It's on the buyer and how you drive.

If you are contantly doing long journeys, or can't charge at home, then an EV is probably not for you. If you read the article you will see the stats - in the UK 99% of car journeys are less than 100 miles.
 

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2. The cost is prohibitive compared to an ICE vehicle

 

No it isn't at all, that is just not true. Have you heard of BYD?  I will likely be switching to a BYD Seal on my next purchase - top of the range performance model - and it will be the cheapest car I have bought for myself for about 20 years.
 

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3. There is no assurance that charging points are available for a long distance drive. There may be point but are they functional? Plus the frustration if you are on a long drive with young children.

 

Partly true. However when I drove an EV I used PlugShare and was surprised by the density of charging stations in Thailand. If you are not looking for them you don't notice them. Definitely not a concern in Thailand right now although it remains to be seen if the infrastructure keeps up with sales (which are going through the roof).

 

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4. Trade in value will be minimal

That remains to be seen. Imagine you keep a car for ten years and your battery has degraded by 20% - it still has value. And in ten years time batteries will likely be much much cheaper than they are now.

A question for you: did you read any of the articles before posting? They cover most of your "concerns" backed up by data.

I am sure some of the EV owners on here (as mentioned, I am not one of them) will chime in with real world experience.

Edited December 10, 2023 by josephbloggs

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Photoguy21 said:

Yes I did. What part didnt you understand?

 

The link said exactly the opposite of what you said.  Regarding trade in value, I lost 10% on my EV after two years, pretty good I think

[kennw]

On 12/10/2023 at 2:26 PM, JBChiangRai said:

 

The link said exactly the opposite of what you said.  Regarding trade in value, I lost 10% on my EV after two years, pretty good I think

Fuel anxiety would be real for me, would hate to be directed off my planned route just to find a charging point, and the sitting around for ages waiting. Plus would have to do it so damn often. City runabout ok but why not use the BTS/MRT?

[Lacessit]

The main argument in favor of EV's is they definitely reduce air pollution in urban environments.They are also considerably cheaper in terms of cost of operation, although not in terms of sunk capital. Unless they are fuelled from renewable energy, they are no better than ICE's in terms of CO2 emissions.

I am not against EV's per se. I am against the spurious virtue signalling of EV owners. IMO EV's, like every other developing technology, come with their own set of issues.

It;s quite true there are significantly less EV fires than in ICE's. However, it is the ferocity of an EV fire, and the toxicity of the combustion products, that gives me pause.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Lacessit

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, kennw said:

Fuel anxiety would be real for me, would hate to be directed off my planned route just to find a charging point, and the sitting around for ages waiting. Plus would have to do it so damn often. City runabout ok but why not use the BTS/MRT?

 

Range/Fuel Anxiety is an issue for all new owners too, until they make a long journey and start noticing all the charging stations, then it's a non-issue.

[Homburg]

I read the Guardian article on "range anxiety".  I found it to be superficial and deceptive. It suggests that range anxiety is about only two factors:  that batteries don’t have enough capacity for journeys and that there is a lack of chargers.  It IGNORES the issue of time taken to recharge, the issue of non-working chargers (when was the last time you found a gas pump that did not work?), the issue of cell-phone signal (because the chargers won't work if you can't get a signal), the issue of potentially spending significant time in an otherwise deserted car-park at night-time waiting for the battery to recharge (would you be happy for your wife or daughter to do that?)  It ignores the issue of "charge evaporation" when the temperature drops (less of an issue in LOS, but certainly an issue in Europe & much of North America as even Florida gets frosts sometimes).  It ignores the issue of unexpectedly closed freeways/motorways with unplanned diversions of tens of kilometres through sparsely populated countryside  - with potentially zero charging facilities available.  It assumes that every EV will start a journey with a full charge - this can be really challenging for those without dedicated parking who may need to drive to a charging point some considerable time before setting off on any journey, so drivers may need to get up an EXTRA hour or more early to drive to a meeting because of the need to charge the EV prior to setting off.  Unlike The Guardian I find that range anxiety is real and completely justified and I suspect that the Guardian is being intentionally dishonest.  Those who read the Guardian regularly may not be surprised at this suspicion.

[JBChiangRai]

20 minutes ago, Homburg said:

I read the Guardian article on "range anxiety".  I found it to be superficial and deceptive. It suggests that range anxiety is about only two factors:  that batteries don’t have enough capacity for journeys and that there is a lack of chargers.  It IGNORES the issue of time taken to recharge, the issue of non-working chargers (when was the last time you found a gas pump that did not work?), the issue of cell-phone signal (because the chargers won't work if you can't get a signal), the issue of potentially spending significant time in an otherwise deserted car-park at night-time waiting for the battery to recharge (would you be happy for your wife or daughter to do that?)  It ignores the issue of "charge evaporation" when the temperature drops (less of an issue in LOS, but certainly an issue in Europe & much of North America as even Florida gets frosts sometimes).  It ignores the issue of unexpectedly closed freeways/motorways with unplanned diversions of tens of kilometres through sparsely populated countryside  - with potentially zero charging facilities available.  It assumes that every EV will start a journey with a full charge - this can be really challenging for those without dedicated parking who may need to drive to a charging point some considerable time before setting off on any journey, so drivers may need to get up an EXTRA hour or more early to drive to a meeting because of the need to charge the EV prior to setting off.  Unlike The Guardian I find that range anxiety is real and completely justified and I suspect that the Guardian is being intentionally dishonest.  Those who read the Guardian regularly may not be surprised at this suspicion.

 

I wonder how many of our EV owners suffer range anxiety?  I certainly don't.

 

Incidentally, nobody is going to install a fast charger where there is no mobile phone signal, they communicate to their servers over a mobile signal.

 

I wonder what EV experience you have that makes you find range anxiety is real and completely justified?

[rwill]

EV's emit more microplastics into the environment due to more tire wear from the extra weight and acceleration.

 

https://www.earth.com/news/hidden-costs-electric-vehicle-tires-emit-20-more-pollution/

[n8sail]

1 minute ago, rwill said:

EV's emit more microplastics into the environment due to more tire wear from the extra weight and acceleration.

 

https://www.earth.com/news/hidden-costs-electric-vehicle-tires-emit-20-more-pollution/

As an EV owner, this one I can believe.

I burnt through the original tires on my EV in 50,000km here in Thailand.  The new set of much higher performance tires will probably be similar, or even less, but that remains to be seen.  They have 25,000km on them so far and seem to be holding up.  This is likely because they are much grippier and break loose less easily than the absolute garbage "ECO" specific ones that came on the car.

Range has not been effected...  I was worried about that, but by my calculations the high performance tires seem to have the same range as the stupid ECO ones.

My diesel truck's first set of tires here went more than 80,000km for comparison.  It is dog-slow compared to the EV though.

 

Rubber does biodegrade...  but there are lots of additives in tire rubber which can effect soils and waterways.

 

 

If you really care about the environment, get off your lazy you-know-what and walk or ride a bicycle.

[ujayujay]

1 hour ago, rwill said:

EV's emit more microplastics into the environment due to more tire wear from the extra weight and acceleration.

 

https://www.earth.com/news/hidden-costs-electric-vehicle-tires-emit-20-more-pollution/

....and whats with Diesel and Benzine emissions!?

[josephbloggs]

3 hours ago, Homburg said:

I read the Guardian article on "range anxiety".  I found it to be superficial and deceptive. It suggests that range anxiety is about only two factors:  that batteries don’t have enough capacity for journeys and that there is a lack of chargers.  It IGNORES the issue of time taken to recharge, the issue of non-working chargers (when was the last time you found a gas pump that did not work?), the issue of cell-phone signal (because the chargers won't work if you can't get a signal),

Quote

the issue of potentially spending significant time in an otherwise deserted car-park at night-time waiting for the battery to recharge (would you be happy for your wife or daughter to do that?) 

It ignores the issue of "charge evaporation" when the temperature drops (less of an issue in LOS, but certainly an issue in Europe & much of North America as even Florida gets frosts sometimes).  It ignores the issue of unexpectedly closed freeways/motorways with unplanned diversions of tens of kilometres through sparsely populated countryside  - with potentially zero charging facilities available.  It assumes that every EV will start a journey with a full charge - this can be really challenging for those without dedicated parking who may need to drive to a charging point some considerable time before setting off on any journey, so drivers may need to get up an EXTRA hour or more early to drive to a meeting because of the need to charge the EV prior to setting off.  Unlike The Guardian I find that range anxiety is real and completely justified and I suspect that the Guardian is being intentionally dishonest.  Those who read the Guardian regularly may not be surprised at this suspicion.

Hilarious. You accuse the Guardian of being superficial and deceptive then you go on to come up with most extreme examples of things that could maybe possibly happy.The Guardian was talking about general real-world ownership and typical usage.

 

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It IGNORES the issue of time taken to recharge, the issue of non-working chargers (when was the last time you found a gas pump that did not work?),

No it doesn't IGNORE that, it talks about it. It also talks about the 55% increase in the number of public charge points globally in 2022, and a 43% increase in fast charging in the UK in the past year. They also said there are still concerns about finder a reliable charger in the UK but that is being resolved quickly. 

 

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the issue of cell-phone signal (because the chargers won't work if you can't get a signal),

Seriously? They are installing charges in such remote uninhabited areas that there is not a phone signal? Why would they do that when a) people need to use a phone app to use them, and b) the stations themselves need a signal to operate? 

 

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the issue of potentially spending significant time in an otherwise deserted car-park at night-time waiting for the battery to recharge (would you be happy for your wife or daughter to do that?) 

How often are you left in an otherwise deserted car park in the middle of the night to charge? Again another ridiculous example plucked out of thin air and never likely to happen. How many charging units are installed in deserted car parks? Anyway I would tell my wife or daughter to not be so stupid as to run out of battery in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere.

 

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It ignores the issue of unexpectedly closed freeways/motorways with unplanned diversions of tens of kilometres through sparsely populated countryside  - with potentially zero charging facilities available

 

So the article should discuss every perceivable scenario no matter how ludicrous or ridiculous or unlikely?  Yes, it ignored that scenario. It also ignored what would happen if a space ship landed to steal your battery for fuel.

Let me ask you, how many times have you experienced an unexpectedly closed motorway with an unplanned diversion through tens of kilometres through sparsely populated countryside? And on the occasions it did happen, how many petrol stations were in this sparsely populated countryside?

 

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It assumes that every EV will start a journey with a full charge - this can be really challenging for those without dedicated parking who may need to drive to a charging point some considerable time before setting off on any journey, so drivers may need to get up an EXTRA hour or more early to drive to a meeting because of the need to charge the EV prior to setting off.

 

If you really needed to leave for work an EXTRA hour earlier to get a charge your EV then you were an idiot for buying one as it clearly doesn't work for your needs. The Guardian did not say every single person should have an EV. If it works for your circumstances (ie you have home charging and don't do weekly journeys of several hundred kms at a time) then great. If not, stick with ICE or a hybrid. But inventing these silly scenarios that have no relevance to the article just shows you are coming in to the argument with a pre-conceived mindset and, let's be honest, makes you look a bit foolish.

 

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Unlike The Guardian I find that range anxiety is real and completely justified and I suspect that the Guardian is being intentionally dishonest. 

You mean unlike the Guardian that said: "There is no doubt that range anxiety is real."  Just admit you didn't read any of the articles, it's fine.

 

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Those who read the Guardian regularly may not be surprised at this suspicion.

 

This is exactly why I ended my post with "(Yeah yeah, the Guardian, lefty liberal, pushing the woke agenda, blah blah)", because there's always one like who will come out with comments like that, and almost always without reading the articles (like you). I am not an EV evangelist. I am not even an EV owner. I just found the articles informative and pretty well balanced. You might too if you try reading them and doing so with an open mind.

Edited December 12, 2023 by josephbloggs

[Stevemercer]

Well, there are bigger problems on the horizon as the uptake of EVs increases. Imagine living in a Condo with 50% EV uptake. The Condo will need a massive upgrade in electricity infrastructure to accomodate peak loads if everyone wants to charge at the same time. This assumes the Condo allows residents to install charges at their parking bays. 

 

Imagine the driving population of Bangok trying to recharge their cars in the evening when they get home. The current grid could not cope, that's for sure. After every power outage the recharger would need to be manually reset (using current generation chargers).

 

Back to the Condo, sooner or later someone will overcharge and the car battery will catch fire, maybe damaging nearby vehicles. Condo management's response will be to prohibit owner charging. Where will everyone recharge: out in the street?

 

As EV ownership rises, what about people with no off street parking? Where will they park and recharge.

 

Buy shares in companies researching 5 minute battery exchanges. China already has automated battery exchanges for standardised bicycle and motorbike batteries. Cars will have to follow suit eventually.

 

Alternatively, buy shares in companies looking to establish commercial car parks with charging, for overnight parking, including insurance and security checks.

 

[Photoguy21]

On 12/10/2023 at 2:15 PM, JBChiangRai said:

 

Did you even read the link the OP provided?

 

 

Yes. Maybe if you read my reply you would realise that. 

[Lee65]

11 minutes ago, Stevemercer said:

Back to the Condo, sooner or later someone will overcharge and the car battery will catch fire, maybe damaging nearby vehicles.

 

Add that EV fires burn extremely hot, and are practically impossible to extinguish in some situations.

 

You'd have to be nuts or very stupid to allow EVs in a carpark, particularly one that is beneath a condo or office building, or shopping mall.  

[Lee65]

5 hours ago, Lacessit said:

They are also considerably cheaper in terms of cost of operation, although not in terms of sunk capital.

 

"Cost of Vehicle Ownership" is the number to consider.  Nobody yet knows that for EVs, but it must include the cost of medications to counter headaches and anxiety, and legal fees to defend against people annoyed that your vehicle burned down a high-rise condo.

[Peterphuket]

39 minutes ago, Stevemercer said:

Well, there are bigger problems on the horizon as the uptake of EVs increases. Imagine living in a Condo with 50% EV uptake. The Condo will need a massive upgrade in electricity infrastructure to accomodate peak loads if everyone wants to charge at the same time. This assumes the Condo allows residents to install charges at their parking bays. 

 

Imagine the driving population of Bangok trying to recharge their cars in the evening when they get home. The current grid could not cope, that's for sure. After every power outage the recharger would need to be manually reset (using current generation chargers).

 

Back to the Condo, sooner or later someone will overcharge and the car battery will catch fire, maybe damaging nearby vehicles. Condo management's response will be to prohibit owner charging. Where will everyone recharge: out in the street?

 

As EV ownership rises, what about people with no off street parking? Where will they park and recharge.

 

Buy shares in companies researching 5 minute battery exchanges. China already has automated battery exchanges for standardised bicycle and motorbike batteries. Cars will have to follow suit eventually.

 

Alternatively, buy shares in companies looking to establish commercial car parks with charging, for overnight parking, including insurance and security checks.

 

Imagine, then you stop somewhere for a battery change, you just got a new car with new battery, after the change you find out you have a 4-year-old battery....
Not unthinkable

[Lacessit]

4 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I wonder how many of our EV owners suffer range anxiety?  I certainly don't.

 

Incidentally, nobody is going to install a fast charger where there is no mobile phone signal, they communicate to their servers over a mobile signal.

 

I wonder what EV experience you have that makes you find range anxiety is real and completely justified?

I don't have any EV experience.

I have driven the Nymagee-Cobar-Broken Hill-Mildura route with my Thai GF, who kept asking where all the houses and people were.

Out there, you get range anxiety with an ICE, let alone an EV.

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I don't have any EV experience.

I have driven the Nymagee-Cobar-Broken Hill-Mildura route with my Thai GF, who kept asking where all the houses and people were.

Out there, you get range anxiety with an ICE, let alone an EV.

Yes, very relevant, I do that trip twice a week

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

Yes, very relevant, I do that trip twice a week

Just making the point while EV's are ideal for urban driving, no argument there, not so much in rural conditions.

It's quite easy to get your hackles up with the slightest bit of disrespect for electric Jesus, isn't it?

[Lee65]

2 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

Imagine, then you stop somewhere for a battery change, you just got a new car with new battery, after the change you find out you have a 4-year-old battery....

 

Good point.  And it might be a damaged 4-year-old battery.

 

(As, incidentally, might be the case for an EV rental car ...)

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Lee65

[josephbloggs]

6 minutes ago, Lee65 said:

 

Good point.  And it might be a damaged 4-year-old battery.

 

(As, incidentally, might be the case for an EV rental car ...)

 

Surely you're just dreaming up hypothetical scenarios that have nothing to do with the topic in hand. I could rent a car with a faulty gearbox, or with timing issues, a loose clutch. That has nothing to do with anything.

And I believe the battery swap is a subscription so you are changing them after every charge is depleted and it takes the same amount of time as filling up with petrol. You don't keep the battery they give you.

[Lee65]

3 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

rent a car with a faulty gearbox, or with timing issues, a loose clutch. That has nothing to do with anything.

 

None of those are subject to extremely intense and rapid combustion as is a damaged EV battery.

 

Never know what the previous driver of an EV rental did with the car.  

[Lee65]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Just making the point while EV's are ideal for urban driving ...

 

Maybe ideal for urban driving; urban refueling not so much ...

 

[josephbloggs]

10 minutes ago, Lee65 said:

 

None of those are subject to extremely intense and rapid combustion as is a damaged EV battery.

 

Never know what the previous driver of an EV rental did with the car.  

Here's a video of an EV being smashed up. And then you see the battery is removed in perfect condition, placed in another car, and it works perfectly.  

If the previous driver of the rental had smashed the car badly enough to damage the battery I am pretty sure the rental company would notice it. Do you think these batteries are on the outside of the car and made of cheese?

Surprised you (or any of the others) haven't trotted out the "but what if it rains and the road floods" yet. Come on, you're missing a trick!

Edited December 12, 2023 by josephbloggs

[Homburg]

6 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I wonder how many of our EV owners suffer range anxiety?  I certainly don't.

 

Incidentally, nobody is going to install a fast charger where there is no mobile phone signal, they communicate to their servers over a mobile signal.

 

Those who need their EV for work are entitled to suffer from range anxiety.  In the real world one is not always able to find a working charger when one gets home after work and then the boss calls first thing to tell you to travel 300km to an important client meeting to cover for someone who has called in sick.  You are correct about chargers needing a phone signal, but no network has 100% coverage and the signal used by the charger may not be on the same network that your cell-phone uses, and your point about installing chargers only where there is a phone signal also explains why it is more challenging to use an EV outside of an urban environment - because there are very few chargers.  By comparison my ICE vehicle can travel 1000km between refuelling stops and so, until I retire from work, I am reluctant to switch to an EV.  

[Lee65]

28 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Here's a video of an EV being smashed up.

 

That video was supplied by EV maker BYD!  I kinda doubt they'd upload an unsuccessful crash test.

 

I once drove over something - apparently metal - on a highway that hit the bottom of the car so hard I was certain that there had been damage.  (Never did find any damage; and it happened to have been a rental car).  Had that same thing happened in an EV I would be very concerned.  Paranoia?  Or just legitimate concern given what can happen with a damaged EV battery ...

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Lee65