The Children of Gaza = More than 7000 Killed.

[ozimoron]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes.

So obviously these two peoples need to separate.

But as there isn't majority support on either side for a two state solution, most likely this mess goes on for generations to come. Even when there is support for a two state solution, important details are not even close to potential agreement. For example, Israel can't possibly agree to a fully sovereign Palestinian state unless it is baby stepped in over decades (over security concerns). October 7 cemented that reality. To those who say, that isn't fair, is it fair to expect Israelis to fully empower a neighbor dedicated to their destruction as Israel is such a TINY country? Would your country if it had the power, ever allow such a horror? To expand this further, even IF a ruling Palestinian entity says OK, we really respect Israel's right to exist, are there any rational grounds for Israel to believe that as anything more than a ploy to get the power to crush Israel later?

 

Israel doesn't wants a 2 state solution and have chewed up much of the west bank in illegal settlements, putting a 2 state solution out of contention unless they get their land back.

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

It's insane to consider that the Palestinians don't want their own state. Utterly nuts. Stop with the propaganda.

Stop lying.

They do want their own state. Sure.

MOST want one state with the Jews gone. 

As it seems you do as well with your insipid suggestion about Jews going to the U.S.

I know this is hard for you to process -- but Israelis have no good reason to trust Palestinians not to crush them if they ever get that power. A fully sovereign Arab state without Israeli security overview, with Iran obviously going in to make them a military power, would be a nightmare for Israel. 

You might love that -- but Israelis can NEVER agree to that. Period -- end of story. 

 

Maybe just maybe (very unlikely) an agreement could be put in place that Israelis would accept for the security situation transition to take place over several decades. But I doubt it. Look what happened to Hong Kong. 

 

To also add to the silly "progressives" that see this in white colonialist terms:

 

The Jewish people are indigenous to Israel

 

The vast majority of Israelis were born in Israel. That is their HOME.

 

Israel now has a strong majority of Mizrahi (non Ashkenazi) Jews. 

 

Israel is a very diverse country. Israeli Jews are very diverse and of course there are also the 20 percent non-Jewish Arab Israeli citizens.. But overall now Israel is truly a Jewish majority MIDDLE EASTERN country. NOT a European country in the Middle East. The dominant food is Middle Eastern. The dominant music is Middle Eastern. Etc. 

 

 

 

 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Jingthing said:

Stop lying.

They do want their own state. Sure.

MOST want one state with the Jews gone. 

As it seems you do as well with your insipid suggestion about Jews going to the U.S.

I know this is hard for you to process -- but Israelis have no good reason to trust Palestinians to crush them if they ever get that power. A fully sovereign Arab state without Israeli security overview, with Iran obviously going in to make them a military power, would be a nightmare for Israel. 

You might love that -- but Israelis can NEVER agree to that. Period -- end of story. 

 

Neither side wants the other to have a state.

 

Stop telling me what I think. You are getting creepy.

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes.

So obviously these two peoples need to separate.

But as there isn't majority support on either side for a two state solution, most likely this mess goes on for generations to come. Even when there is support for a two state solution, important details are not even close to potential agreement. For example, Israel can't possibly agree to a fully sovereign Palestinian state unless it is baby stepped in over decades (over security concerns). October 7 cemented that reality. To those who say, that isn't fair, is it fair to expect Israelis to fully empower a neighbor dedicated to their destruction as Israel is such a TINY country? Would your country if it had the power, ever allow such a horror? To expand this further, even IF a ruling Palestinian entity says OK, we really respect Israel's right to exist, are there any rational grounds for Israel to believe that as anything more than a ploy to get the power to crush Israel later?

 

Separation implies each side letting go of some parts of its narrative, so hard to do. Especially with so many decades invested in building them.

 

The details, as you call them, aren't really the issue. Many people don't get that. The technical aspect of the separation is doable. Not easy, but not impossible. They can be solved this way or the other. But so long as there's no willingness to really accommodate a resolution, its kinda futile dealing with them. They can decrease/increase tensions some, but are not a substitute for paradigm change.

 

The Palestinians basically agreed already that their new state will not be 'fully sovereign' from the get go. They traditionally argued more about the visuals, not the substance, of this. Not exactly a priority anyway for them, and it's one thing Israel will neither budge about and will not be pressured about, so why bother.

 

You are right that trust is a major issue and problem. That's where other parties can significantly help. But, of course, it will be a long time before more normal relations will be a thing. So far, we're not even close to this step, even.

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Israel doesn't wants a 2 state solution and have chewed up much of the west bank in illegal settlements, putting a 2 state solution out of contention unless they get their land back.

 

@ozimoron

 

Again with the one-sided nonsense views?

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Neither side wants the other to have a state.

 

Stop telling me what I think. You are getting creepy.

 

@ozimoron

 

I don't think you think much.

You react. Sometimes to actual comments, often to what you imagine people posted.

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Neither side wants the other to have a state.

 

Stop telling me what I think. You are getting creepy.

There is not majority support for a two state solution on either side. Good boy, 

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Stop lying.

They do want their own state. Sure.

MOST want one state with the Jews gone. 

As it seems you do as well with your insipid suggestion about Jews going to the U.S.

I know this is hard for you to process -- but Israelis have no good reason to trust Palestinians not to crush them if they ever get that power. A fully sovereign Arab state without Israeli security overview, with Iran obviously going in to make them a military power, would be a nightmare for Israel. 

You might love that -- but Israelis can NEVER agree to that. Period -- end of story. 

 

Maybe just maybe (very unlikely) an agreement could be put in place that Israelis would accept for the security situation transition to take place over several decades. But I doubt it. Look what happened to Hong Kong. 

 

To also add to the silly "progressives" that see this in white colonialist terms:

 

The Jewish people are indigenous to Israel

 

The vast majority of Israelis were born in Israel. That is their HOME.

 

Israel now has a strong majority of Mizrahi (non Ashkenazi) Jews. 

 

Israel is a very diverse country. Israeli Jews are very diverse and of course there are also the 20 percent non-Jewish Arab Israeli citizens.. But overall now Israel is truly a Jewish majority MIDDLE EASTERN country. NOT a European country in the Middle East. The dominant food is Middle Eastern. The dominant music is Middle Eastern. Etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Returning to the previous analogy between discussions here and the negotiations/peace process/relations between the sides - the exchange above shows that with some posters, the issues are more on a basic communication level. I doubt very much that you actually posted something that could be construed as 'the Palestinians don't want their own land'. Out of the blue comes charges the usual suspect with strong condemnation for an imaginary position:

 

Quote

It's insane to consider that the Palestinians don't want their own state. Utterly nuts. Stop with the propaganda.

 

Sometimes reality is easier than this forum....

 

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said:

We're all from different places so there are bound to be odd interpretations of what's being said and not trying to be rude to you Brian, you do wind me up with some of the way you comment and I like to think I've been around long enough to get over that sort of thing.

That said, I agree on the need for honesty, maybe give a few a bit of slack now and again.

 

I think that's gone out the window long ago. Some posters are plain trolls. Others holds views which are simply unacceptable. And a couple can't seem to handle more then a few exchanges without going out of focus.

 

There's also very little trust, I think. Like, you could post this now, and a few hours later revert to kind. Not a great motivator.

[Neeranam]

4 hours ago, ezzra said:

Here are some thoughts provoking numbers: in the world right now, there are circa 1.8 billion Muslims!!! spread out in many countries V. 16.5 millions Jews, where the majority of them are in Israel, while Muslims can go live in many countries, ( not that many countries will want them seeing how troublesome they are) Jews has only one place, 

one of main reasons to high children death in Gaza, it's because 45% of the Gaza population are children 

(yes, forty five percent) meaning, nearly half of the population are children, a fact that no one talks about it...

OK, let's talk about it... 

Sweeping generalizations and biased narrative.
The assertion that Muslims can freely live in many countries overlooks the challenges faced by Muslim communities worldwide, such as discrimination and geopolitical conflicts. And, framing Muslims as inherently troublesome is an unfair generalization.
Regarding Jews, the claim that they have only one place, Israel, ignores the global Jewish diaspora around the world. Jews are not confined to Israel, they’re worldwide.
The 45% of population being children in Gaza can be attributed to the oppressive conditions resembling apartheid, where parents are unfairly imprisoned or killed in Israeli ‘mowing the lawn’ operations/wars or whatever you want to call it. Previous military operations have disrupted families, leading to displacement and loss of lives, leaving a void filled by a disproportionately high number of vulnerable children. The psychological toll on these kids is excacerbated by the blockade and daily hardships, including inadequate nutrition resulting from restricted food supplies. These hungry, malnourished kids' circumstances amplify the risk of these children becoming susceptible to extremist ideologies, as they grapple with the harsh realities of their environment, potentially contributing to the cycle of conflict in the region. Killing all Hamas will do Israel no good politically or Karmically. 

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

OK, let's talk about it... 

Sweeping generalizations and biased narrative.
The assertion that Muslims can freely live in many countries overlooks the challenges faced by Muslim communities worldwide, such as discrimination and geopolitical conflicts. And, framing Muslims as inherently troublesome is an unfair generalization.
Regarding Jews, the claim that they have only one place, Israel, ignores the global Jewish diaspora around the world. Jews are not confined to Israel, they’re worldwide.
The 45% of population being children in Gaza can be attributed to the oppressive conditions resembling apartheid, where parents are unfairly imprisoned or killed in Israeli ‘mowing the lawn’ operations/wars or whatever you want to call it. Previous military operations have disrupted families, leading to displacement and loss of lives, leaving a void filled by a disproportionately high number of vulnerable children. The psychological toll on these kids is excacerbated by the blockade and daily hardships, including inadequate nutrition resulting from restricted food supplies. These hungry, malnourished kids' circumstances amplify the risk of these children becoming susceptible to extremist ideologies, as they grapple with the harsh realities of their environment, potentially contributing to the cycle of conflict in the region. Killing all Hamas will do Israel no good politically or Karmically. 

There are numerous Islamic and/or Muslim dominant states in the world.

There is only the one very tiny, very vulnerable state of Israel. 

The global population of Jews already relatively tiny was severely damaged in the holocaust.

Imagine what global Jewry would be like now if those people had lived. 

Israel exists because the Jewish people who are indigenous people of Israel had so many horrible experiences in the diaspora for thousands of years.

Pogroms, mass expulsions, etc.

It makes me extremely angry to hear people even remotely hint or suggest that Jews don't deserve even ONE yes TINY nation state!

Israel isn't going anywhere.

Most Israeli Jews were born there.

 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Jingthing said:

There are numerous Islamic and/or Muslim dominant states in the world.

There is only the one very tiny, very vulnerable state of Israel. 

The global population of Jews was severely damaged in the holocaust. 

Israel exists because the Jewish people who are indiginous people of Israel had so many horrible experiences in the diaspora for thousands of years.

It makes me extremely angry to hear people even suggest that Jews don't deserve even ONE!

Israel isn't going anywhere.

Most Israeli Jews were born there.

 

 

As long as Israel actively blocks a Palestinian state they don't deserve a state themselves. It's incredible that a population who suffered so greatly during WW2 at the hands of the nazis could themselves turn so evil.

[Neeranam]

On 12/15/2023 at 7:27 AM, CharlieH said:

Gaza’s children have had to endure so much in their short lives. A 15-year-old will have lived through five wars in their lifetime, including the current conflict. Many have been displaced several times because their homes were destroyed by bombing.

Even so, they had never experienced destruction like this.

This displacement from their homes has sown the seeds of resentment and despair. This displacement is not merely a geographical upheaval; it is a rupture of communities, a disintegration of familial ties, and a corrosion of the sense of belonging. Such conditions create a fertile ground for desperation and radicalization.

The militarization of the conflict and the disproportionate killings further alienate the Palestinian populace. The trauma inflicted on Gazans, growing up amidst constant conflict, breeds a collective frustration that could find an outlet in extremist ideologies.
 

 

[Trippy]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

This displacement from their homes has sown the seeds of resentment and despair. This displacement is not merely a geographical upheaval; it is a rupture of communities, a disintegration of familial ties, and a corrosion of the sense of belonging. Such conditions create a fertile ground for desperation and radicalization.

The militarization of the conflict and the disproportionate killings further alienate the Palestinian populace. The trauma inflicted on Gazans, growing up amidst constant conflict, breeds a collective frustration that could find an outlet in extremist ideologies.
 

 

Yep, hamas is an evil organization.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

As long as Israel actively blocks a Palestinian state they don't deserve a state themselves. It's incredible that a population who suffered so greatly during WW2 at the hands of the nazis could themselves turn so evil.

 

@ozimoron

 

The Oracle act again?

 

Your ridiculous, simplistic pronouncements are somewhere between amusing and embarrassing.

 

'Don't deserve'? Says who? You? In case you missed it, Israel already got a state.

 

Evil? That's again your opinion, and not a very balanced one at that.

 

As for your Nazi nonsense, it's actually a textbook reaction.

 

More and more you make it clear that you are not here to debate, discuss or talk about issues - you're here to pontificate, to push some extreme agenda, out of touch concepts and so forth.

 

 

[Neeranam]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There are numerous Islamic and/or Muslim dominant states in the world.

There is only the one very tiny, very vulnerable state of Israel. 

The global population of Jews already relatively tiny was severely damaged in the holocaust.

Imagine what global Jewry would be like now if those people had lived. 

Israel exists because the Jewish people who are indigenous people of Israel had so many horrible experiences in the diaspora for thousands of years.

Pogroms, mass expulsions, etc.

It makes me extremely angry to hear people even remotely hint or suggest that Jews don't deserve even ONE yes TINY nation state!

Israel isn't going anywhere.

Most Israeli Jews were born there.

 

I know they're are Muslim dominant states, not sure what point you are making in reply to my post; I never suggested Jews don't deserve a nation state, I believe they do. 

 

[Morch]

Back in 2005 or so, around the time Israel was gearing to detach itself from the West Bank, Hamas could have take a different path. It could have taken the opportunity, and demonstrate what a Palestinians State would look like. It sort of did that, but not in a way that helped 'the cause' much.

 

All this nonsense poured by some posters, going on and on and on about Israel - dodges this. There was a choice. A certain path was taken. This wasn't Israel's doing.

 

The destruction and death witnessed on the Gaza Strip these these past weeks? That's also a product of a choice made by Hamas. Because spin it whichever you like, this wasn't happening on 6/10.

 

You want to make excuses for Hamas, go right ahead. You want to broadcast Hamas talking points? That's fine. But at least be honest about it - all this cursory 'I condemn Hamas' nonsense, followed by torrents of one-sided diatribes, total blindness to the other side's faults and responsibility - that doesn't really fool anyone.

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I know they're are Muslim dominant states, not sure what point you are making in reply to my post; I never suggested Jews don't deserve a nation state, I believe they do.

 

I think Israel should have a state, they just don't deserve one until they stop running interference in Palestinian affairs in order to prevent formation of a state. Meantime, the entire upper echelons of Israel's government and military, along with Hamas should answer for war crimes.

 

[Morch]

Here's another way in which these topics pretty much reflect reality.

 

In Israel, there a plurality of opinions. Some of them going way beyond the wannabe-pro-Palestinians posters' comments on here. But the main point is that there exists a sizeable base which can discuss the relevant issues from a non-fanatic point of view, through reason, accept responsibility for certain things and so on.

 

In Palestinians society, similar elements are comparatively minuscule. One can cite many reasons for that - but the bottom line remains. There is way less acceptance of accountability, of openness to the other sides' point of view and so on.

 

Pretty much the same could be observed on these topics.

[ozimoron]

Meanwhile, Israel’s communication minister Shlomo Kahri said on Wednesday: “There will be no Palestinian state here. We will never allow another state to be established between Jordan and the [Mediterranean] sea”.

 

Asked by Sky News’ Mark Austin whether there was “still a chance for a two state solution”, Israel’s ambassador to the UK, Tzipi Hotovely, said in December that a “new paradigm” should be built. Pushed on whether that would involve Palestinians having a sovereign state, Ms Hotovely replied: “The answer is absolutely no”.

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-what-is-a-two-state-solution-and-do-israelis-and-palestinians-want-one

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I think Israel should have a state, they just don't deserve one until they stop running interference in Palestinian affairs in order to prevent formation of a state. Meantime, the entire upper echelons of Israel's government and military, along with Hamas should answer for war crimes.

 

 

@ozimoron

 

What you think is irrelevant.

Israel is a state, regardless of your views.

And by now, it's already been established that your grasp of the 'war crimes' (and related concepts) is not as firm as you think.

[ozimoron]

"If your conclusion is that Israel is the only or the main responsible for the situation, you're wrong,” Barak tells Bremmer, “But if you mention as a matter of fact that this government doesn't want to see two-state solution, that's objectively accurate.”

 

Barak thinks Netanyahu’s policies have counterintuitively promoted the idea that Hamas in Gaza is an asset while the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank is a liability, not the other way around, all for political reasons. This dynamic has led to a “poison pill” against any political process, which is now even more difficult to achieve following the October 7th attacks and subsequent invasion.

 

https://www.gzeromedia.com/gzero-world-clips/how-netanyahu-used-hamas-to-avoid-talks-of-a-two-state-solution

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Meanwhile, Israel’s communication minister Shlomo Kahri said on Wednesday: “There will be no Palestinian state here. We will never allow another state to be established between Jordan and the [Mediterranean] sea”.

 

Asked by Sky News’ Mark Austin whether there was “still a chance for a two state solution”, Israel’s ambassador to the UK, Tzipi Hotovely, said in December that a “new paradigm” should be built. Pushed on whether that would involve Palestinians having a sovereign state, Ms Hotovely replied: “The answer is absolutely no”.

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-what-is-a-two-state-solution-and-do-israelis-and-palestinians-want-one

 

 

@ozimoron

 

Two right-wing politicians (not top tier, by any means), both religious and one (the minister) a regular loose cannon.

Previously when some of the more extreme Hamas leaders were quoted, there were objections that such view are not representative etc.

[ozimoron]

Israeli and American policymakers have also yet to focus on the transformation of some of Hamas’s military leaders shifting from a local, nationalist, religious ideology resisting the Israeli occupation and calling for a Palestinian state into a global jihadist ideology. If such a transformation takes root, Hamas would essentially move away from the Muslim Brotherhood ideology to a radical, Wahhabi Salafi jihadist paradigm. Extremists within the Wahhabi paradigm do not accept the existence of a Jewish state in Palestine.

 

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/hamas-gaza-israel/

[ozimoron]

Extremists on both sides of Israel-Hamas War are determined to kill a two-state solution

 

Then an extremist Jewish settler slaughtered 29 Palestinian men and boys as they knelt in prayer in a Hebron mosque in 1994. Hamas suicide bombers blew up buses to butcher Israelis on Jerusalem’s streets. A Jewish extremist shot and killed Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin at a peace rally in Tel Aviv in 1995.

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-opinion-israel-hamas-war-two-state-solution-20231217-norll7wml5fotiexa2dyav2e3q-story.html

[ozimoron]

In a recent poll, only 31% of poll respondents said they supported sending Israel weapons, while 43% opposed the idea.

 

The slaughter of children and civilians is radicalizing a new generation inside of the occupied territories and across the Muslim world. The median age of the Palestinian population is 19.6 years old—millions of young people who could fuel a fire that could rage out of control for a generation. It no longer matters how many Hamas militants are killed; Israel is creating a far larger number of replacements. 

 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/12/22/2213202/-Netanyahu-s-Gaza-War-Has-Failed?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=trending&pm_medium=web

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

As long as Israel actively blocks a Palestinian state they don't deserve a state themselves. It's incredible that a population who suffered so greatly during WW2 at the hands of the nazis could themselves turn so evil.

Again the Palestinians don't want a separate state. They want River to the Sea. 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Again the Palestinians don't want a separate state. They want River to the Sea. 

 

Why would they when Israel will continue to prevent the formation of a Palestinian state. They used to want one - until the settlements took up 40% of the occupied west bank, making the solution unviable.

 

They do, however, want a Palestinian state but, like Israel, they don't want the other side to have a state.

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Why would they when Israel will continue to prevent the formation of a Palestinian state. They used to want one - until the settlements took up 40% of the occupied west bank, making the solution unviable.

 

They do, however, want a Palestinian state but, like Israel, they don't want the other side to have a state.

Too bad.

Israel isn't going anywhere. 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Jingthing said:

Too bad.

Israel isn't going anywhere. 

 

Nobody on this board ever suggested it was or should.