Morch Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 1 hour ago, spidermike007 said: I think it is high time to withdraw all US support for Israel starting with dollar one. The Israelis have a lot of industry and a lot of wealth, let them fend for themselves for a while, then perhaps they can learn the definition of respect and gratitude. To continue a parallel discussion - there you go again. You conflate Netanyahu and his right-wing government with 'Israelis' as a whole, implying the latter is fully onboard with Netanyahu's positions and that it does not feel 'respect and gratitude' for the USA. Then you whine about people criticizing your comments..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 1 hour ago, Mavideol said: am with u.... right now Net opens his big mouth because he knows Israel has support in the US, but that may change soon Any actual signs for this possible upcoming change? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 41 minutes ago, ozimoron said: The Abraham Accords were essentially intended to setup a military bloc including the US, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Israel to counter the Houtis, Hezbollah and Iran whose military power is becoming quite formidable. The dancing with the sword stunt (and the accords themselves) was extremely provocative for conflict in the region and I believe was a major contributor to the October 7 Hamas terrorist attack. Diplomacy was always a better option. Note that the Iranians have not gotten directly involved with Israel as yet. Netanyahu's government is doing it's utmost to provoke such a war. Hezbollah has also been quite restrained compared to what they are capable of. @ozimoron Oh, so you're branching from a Hamas apologist to a Hezbollah apologist? Lovely. Maybe consider that Lebanon (the country, the people) are in a bad shape already, and that a full blown war might see Hezbollah's fortunes change? Nah....better to praise them, why deal with facts. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannork Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 "Eisenkot: Key Israeli war leader challenges Netanyahu over Gaza strategy - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68035744 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 46 minutes ago, ozimoron said: I never implied that they were a majority. There's enough of them to turn the general election into a loser for Biden. Even if they just stay home which is highly likely. I'm predicting the lowest turnout presidential election as a % of voters in US history. The loss of the youth vote would be particularly devastating for the dems. @ozimoron Anything to support your assertions? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 34 minutes ago, Morch said: I daresay most leaders dealing with Israel are well informed about it's domestic politics. Agree that many are influenced by media memes, this forum being no different. Most world leaders are briefed by advisers as well as many members of legislative bodies. For the average guy on the street, his information comes mainly from a left or right biased media. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placnx Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 9 hours ago, Hawaiian said: Palestinian support for a two-state solution has dropped dramatically and Hamas itself calls for the complete destruction of Israel. In other words, a one state solution, Palestine. I am not agreeing with Netanyahu, but agreeing with Bkk Brian that Hamas is the problem and not the solution. https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-what-is-a-two-state-solution-and-do-israelis-and-palestinians-want-one Palestinian support for Oslo is dead. Recently the two-state solution is getting attention again, but that is not the Oslo solution for a Palestinian state lacking sovereignty. A one-state solution envisions an end to apartheid. That would be very difficult to achieve any time soon, unless the Israeli people realize that the "basic law" approach is unstable, and that a constitution is warranted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 1 minute ago, placnx said: Palestinian support for Oslo is dead. Recently the two-state solution is getting attention again, but that is not the Oslo solution for a Palestinian state lacking sovereignty. A one-state solution envisions an end to apartheid. That would be very difficult to achieve any time soon, unless the Israeli people realize that the "basic law" approach is unstable, and that a constitution is warranted. You're trying to paint the Palestinians as some pro-equality, pro-democracy crowd, with Israel painted into the opposing corner. You have no clue. Hamas gets a whole lot of support - does it represent any of the required values? Does the PA embodies them? Do Palestinian sentiment align with what you tout? Have a look at the Middle East. Find a country managing harmonic co-existence between groups, plus all the democracy stuff. Then get back to reality. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisdead Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 Baiting troll posts and the replies contravening our Community Standards have been removed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placnx Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bkk Brian said: There will be official read outs of this published later or over the weekend so details should be forthcoming After phone call, Biden says two-state solution not impossible while Netanyahu in office WASHINGTON — US President Joe Biden says the creation of an independent state for Palestinians is not impossible while Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is still in office, and that the two leaders discussed the issue during their phone call earlier today. Speaking to reporters after a meeting with US mayors, Biden is asked directly whether a two-state solution is impossible with Netanyahu still in office. “No it’s not,” the president replies. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/after-phone-call-biden-says-two-state-solution-not-impossible-while-netanyahu-in-office/ Biden seems more and more delusional. He also thinks that he can defeat Trump, while Netanyahu probably thinks that Trump will get him out of jail. Edited January 20 by placnx 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 1 hour ago, ozimoron said: I never implied that they were a majority. There's enough of them to turn the general election into a loser for Biden. Even if they just stay home which is highly likely. I'm predicting the lowest turnout presidential election as a % of voters in US history. The loss of the youth vote would be particularly devastating for the dems. The bookies in Vegas will gladly take you on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 14 minutes ago, placnx said: Biden seems more and more delusional. He also thinks that he can defeat Trump, while Netanyahu probably thinks that Trump will get him out of jail. Got the crystal ball out again then 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Brian Hull Posted January 20 Popular Post Share Posted January 20 Israel has no propriety rights to Gaza or the West Bank and so Netanyahu's objection to a Palestinian State should carry no weight. The world at large should endorse a Palestinian State with or without the cooperation of Israel (just as it endorsed the creation of Israel in 1948). Israel will have to learn to accept it or lose the financial and military backing of the US, and risk an international boycott. The land grabbing Jewish settlers who have set up home in the West Bank and might choose to remain will come under the authority of Palestine. 2 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 Iran is just strong enough to have it's own nuclear deterrent. Apart from the obvious danger that they could easily obtain a nuclear armed missile from Russia, they could detonate a dirty bomb high over Tel Aviv. Israel must not be permitted to provoke a wider war with Iran just so Netanyahu can stay in power and pander to his ultra orthodox power brokers. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nick Carter icp Posted January 20 Popular Post Share Posted January 20 32 minutes ago, Brian Hull said: Israel has no propriety rights to Gaza or the West Bank and so Netanyahu's objection to a Palestinian State should carry no weight. The world at large should endorse a Palestinian State with or without the cooperation of Israel (just as it endorsed the creation of Israel in 1948). Israel will have to learn to accept it or lose the financial and military backing of the US, and risk an international boycott. The land grabbing Jewish settlers who have set up home in the West Bank and might choose to remain will come under the authority of Palestine. Are you unaware that the Palestinians rejected statehood and have rejected statehood five times now ? You would need the cooperation of the Palestinians more so than the Israelis 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 25 minutes ago, ozimoron said: Iran is just strong enough to have it's own nuclear deterrent. Apart from the obvious danger that they could easily obtain a nuclear armed missile from Russia, they could detonate a dirty bomb high over Tel Aviv. Israel must not be permitted to provoke a wider war with Iran just so Netanyahu can stay in power and pander to his ultra orthodox power brokers. Why would Putin do that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jingthing Posted January 20 Popular Post Share Posted January 20 2 hours ago, Brian Hull said: Israel has no propriety rights to Gaza or the West Bank and so Netanyahu's objection to a Palestinian State should carry no weight. The world at large should endorse a Palestinian State with or without the cooperation of Israel (just as it endorsed the creation of Israel in 1948). Israel will have to learn to accept it or lose the financial and military backing of the US, and risk an international boycott. The land grabbing Jewish settlers who have set up home in the West Bank and might choose to remain will come under the authority of Palestine. But you're wrong. Without the cooperation of Israel, there will never be a Palestinian state. Also, keep in mind, there isn't majority support for a two state solution on either side. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 3 hours ago, placnx said: Biden seems more and more delusional. He also thinks that he can defeat Trump, while Netanyahu probably thinks that Trump will get him out of jail. Of course Biden can beat Trump. Also Trump can beat Biden. I don't believe that Netanyahu thinks that any U.S. president can get him out of jail if Israel decides that, even dictator Trump. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 3 hours ago, Morch said: You're trying to paint the Palestinians as some pro-equality, pro-democracy crowd, with Israel painted into the opposing corner. You have no clue. Hamas gets a whole lot of support - does it represent any of the required values? Does the PA embodies them? Do Palestinian sentiment align with what you tout? Have a look at the Middle East. Find a country managing harmonic co-existence between groups, plus all the democracy stuff. Then get back to reality. Yeah it's amazing. So many people thinking that dealing with the Palestinians is like dealing with Canada. Sure Israel has become tough of nails ... by necessity. They wouldn't have made it this far without adapting to the harsh reality of the culture of their neighbors. 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 3 hours ago, placnx said: Palestinian support for Oslo is dead. Recently the two-state solution is getting attention again, but that is not the Oslo solution for a Palestinian state lacking sovereignty. A one-state solution envisions an end to apartheid. That would be very difficult to achieve any time soon, unless the Israeli people realize that the "basic law" approach is unstable, and that a constitution is warranted. It's delusional to think for one second that Israel would ever accept a one state solution voluntarily. That would mean the end of Israel and anyone who is half way honest fully realizes that. It's funny how many people expect Israel to commit national suicide when they would never ask the same thing of any other country, especially their own. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placeholder Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) 5 hours ago, Morch said: To continue a parallel discussion - there you go again. You conflate Netanyahu and his right-wing government with 'Israelis' as a whole, implying the latter is fully onboard with Netanyahu's positions and that it does not feel 'respect and gratitude' for the USA. Then you whine about people criticizing your comments..... Well, this thread is about Netanyahu rejecting the US push for a Palestinian state. And even before the October 7 massacre, support for it wasn't a real popular position among Israelis Israelis have grown more skeptical of a two-state solution Following recent violence in the West Bank, some experts on the Israel-Palestine conflict have expressed concern that the prospects for a two-state solution are fading... Only 35% of Israelis think “a way can be found for Israel and an independent Palestinian state to coexist peacefully,” according to the survey, which was conducted in March and April, prior to the latest violence in the West Bank. That represents a decline of 9 percentage points since 2017 and 15 points since 2013. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/09/26/israelis-have-grown-more-skeptical-of-a-two-state-solution/ Edited January 20 by placeholder 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 (edited) 5 minutes ago, placeholder said: Well, this thread is about Netanyahu rejecting the us push for a Palestinian state. And even before the October 7 massacre, support for it wasn't a real popular position among Israelis Israelis have grown more skeptical of a two-state solution Following recent violence in the West Bank, some experts on the Israel-Palestine conflict have expressed concern that the prospects for a two-state solution are fading... Only 35% of Israelis think “a way can be found for Israel and an independent Palestinian state to coexist peacefully,” according to the survey, which was conducted in March and April, prior to the latest violence in the West Bank. That represents a decline of 9 percentage points since 2017 and 15 points since 2013. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/09/26/israelis-have-grown-more-skeptical-of-a-two-state-solution/ Definitely even less support now thanks to Hamas. Again, this is nothing new. There hasn't been majority support for a two state solution on either side. Of course a one state solution is out as well (though Palestinians would love that as it means the end of Israel). What's the answer. Don't look at me! I guess it's not OK to say there is no answer but what if that's the actual reality? Edited January 20 by Jingthing 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placeholder Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 13 minutes ago, Jingthing said: Definitely even less support now thanks to Hamas. Again, this is nothing new. There hasn't been majority support for a two state solution on either side. Of course a one state solution is out as well (though Palestinians would love that as it means the end of Israel). What's the answer. Don't look at me! I guess it's not OK to say there is no answer but what if that's the actual reality? Just don't say that there's no solution to the Hamas issue because then you'll be accused of supporting terrorists. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 4 hours ago, Brian Hull said: Israel has no propriety rights to Gaza or the West Bank and so Netanyahu's objection to a Palestinian State should carry no weight. The world at large should endorse a Palestinian State with or without the cooperation of Israel (just as it endorsed the creation of Israel in 1948). Israel will have to learn to accept it or lose the financial and military backing of the US, and risk an international boycott. The land grabbing Jewish settlers who have set up home in the West Bank and might choose to remain will come under the authority of Palestine. The world doesn't seem as enthusiastic as you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 3 hours ago, ozimoron said: Iran is just strong enough to have it's own nuclear deterrent. Apart from the obvious danger that they could easily obtain a nuclear armed missile from Russia, they could detonate a dirty bomb high over Tel Aviv. Israel must not be permitted to provoke a wider war with Iran just so Netanyahu can stay in power and pander to his ultra orthodox power brokers. @ozimoron More nonsense. Iran does not have a nuclear device. If and when they demonstrate otherwise, and when they succeeded coupling it with a warhead, and make it operational, than they would have something like a deterrent. As for the 'they could easily obtain' bit - why would Russia supply them with something like that? How does it help Russia's agenda? To whom did Russia supply such missiles? You're just making up stuff now. Detonate a bomb over Tel Aviv? You mean the bomb they do not have? And this super-smart-non-existent Iranian bomb will not effect Palestinians at all? Nor would it result in a more massive strike on Iran by Israel? the USA? You go on and on about Iran''s supposed nuclear capabilities and attack on Tel Aviv - yet somehow end up blaming Netanyahu? Even by the standard of your usual ramblings, this takes the cake. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 2 hours ago, Jingthing said: Of course Biden can beat Trump. Also Trump can beat Biden. I don't believe that Netanyahu thinks that any U.S. president can get him out of jail if Israel decides that, even dictator Trump. I don't think Netanyah plans that far ahead. He deals with what he sees as the more immediate threat (to himself) first, and with the consequences - later. And it doesn't have to be anything as straightforward planning anyway - shuffle the cards, play the hand. Trump is unpredictable, so a whole lot can change - maybe for Netanyahu's benefit, maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 42 minutes ago, placeholder said: Well, this thread is about Netanyahu rejecting the US push for a Palestinian state. And even before the October 7 massacre, support for it wasn't a real popular position among Israelis Israelis have grown more skeptical of a two-state solution Following recent violence in the West Bank, some experts on the Israel-Palestine conflict have expressed concern that the prospects for a two-state solution are fading... Only 35% of Israelis think “a way can be found for Israel and an independent Palestinian state to coexist peacefully,” according to the survey, which was conducted in March and April, prior to the latest violence in the West Bank. That represents a decline of 9 percentage points since 2017 and 15 points since 2013. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/09/26/israelis-have-grown-more-skeptical-of-a-two-state-solution/ What does it have to do with my comment? I was addressing the manner in which the poster articulates his criticism. When criticized, he claims to have issues with Netanyahu and Israel's right wing. Fair enough. Then again, a whole lot of his posts are actually framed as above - lumping Israel and Israelis together with the latter two. Add to this the 'respect and gratitude' bit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post spidermike007 Posted January 20 Popular Post Share Posted January 20 8 hours ago, Brian Hull said: Israel has no propriety rights to Gaza or the West Bank and so Netanyahu's objection to a Palestinian State should carry no weight. The world at large should endorse a Palestinian State with or without the cooperation of Israel (just as it endorsed the creation of Israel in 1948). Israel will have to learn to accept it or lose the financial and military backing of the US, and risk an international boycott. The land grabbing Jewish settlers who have set up home in the West Bank and might choose to remain will come under the authority of Palestine. The Israeli lobby is simply too powerful and they spend too much money in the US. It's virtually impossible for Israel to lose American support, and Netanyahu seems to know that, so he keeps pushing and pushing. Fortunately his popularity at home is incredibly low, a recent poll show that only 15% of Israelis want to see him continue leading after this war is over, so hopefully he'll be ousted and sent into oblivion very soon. He's the last man in the world that should be leading Israel right now. 2 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 14 hours ago, Screaming said: MIGA Netanyahu 2024 Indeed.Unfortunately I would not expect Trump to do anything different to Biden if elected. He didn't do anything to help Palestinians last time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post thaibeachlovers Posted January 20 Popular Post Share Posted January 20 16 hours ago, Lacessit said: A Palestinian state is not going to be established until all the Arab parties can renounce the concept of destroying Israel, including Hamas. IMO Israel would be open to a Palestinian state, IF it had security guarantees from the Palestinians themselves. If someone is trying to kill me, I see no reason not to respond in kind. The 12,000 or so children the israelis blew to bits with American bombs were not trying to kill anyone. However, IMO the kids that are left when it's all over will grow up with the desire to kill israelis. The israelis are sowing the wind and will reap the whirlwind. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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