Hamas: Oct 7 was 'necessary, normal response' to 'Israeli conspiracies'

[Bkk Brian]

6 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

I actually read the whole article, and the women that spoke at hearing were not raped. One of the women said she 'thought a girl was raped when she came back from the bathroom' by the look on the girls face - she did not hear it or see it.

 

In another instance she says; " I saw it with my own eyes" but doesn't go into any detail, doesn't name any hostages that were raped, and doesn't say how it happened.

 

Again, I am not saying that there were 0 rapes, but there is no evidence in the link you supplied.

Well I started my post deliberately with this little intro:

 

8 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Released hostages have their stories to tell and Hamas expects the world not to believe them................

 

Having honestly thought about it at the time and on reflection I should have put Hamas & @Brickleberry However that will now be rectified for any future posts that involve innocent hostage survivors testimony. Quite the show of your bias when you attempt to cast doubt.

 

 

[WDSmart]

12 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You have a very foggy grasp of things. Starting from your use of 'Zionists'. The rest of the nonsense follows.

Morch, Below is a list of related terms as I use them to help you navigate through my fog: 

CATEGORY: Term1 / Term2
RACE: Hebrew / Arab
RELIGION: Jew / Muslim
COUNTRY: Israel / Palestine
CITIZENRY: Israeli / Palestinian
MILITANT FACTION: Zionist / Hamas

And, as a bonus, here is my overall view (like radar in the fog) of this entire situation, which is based on a previous takeover of an entire people and country like this:

SITUATION: USA / American Indians


 

[Brickleberry]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I read your post. And the previous one where you try to cast doubts on this. Them attempts to whitewash Hamas.

Could say a whole lot of things. Could point out to plenty of references (which were already posted numerous times on these topics).

 

But when it comes down to it, what I think when I see your forum handle and garbage comments - 'this guy is a used butt plug'.

I think that sums you up pretty well.

 

I am not whitewashing Hamas, but I will also not allow you to spread false propaganda and lies without being called out on it.

 

Read the article before you post next time, then you might not be so annoyed when when your caught out lying. Furthermore, unless you want me to report your post, I suggest you delete the part where you insulted me.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Brickleberry said:

 

I am not whitewashing Hamas, but I will also not allow you to spread false propaganda and lies without being called out on it.

 

Read the article before you post next time, then you might not be so annoyed when when your caught out lying. Furthermore, unless you want me to report your post, I suggest you delete the part where you insulted me.

What lies would those be?

[Morch]

4 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Morch, Below is a list of related terms as I use them to help you navigate through my fog: 

CATEGORY: Term1 / Term2
RACE: Hebrew / Arab
RELIGION: Jew / Muslim
COUNTRY: Israel / Palestine
CITIZENRY: Israeli / Palestinian
MILITANT FACTION: Zionist / Hamas

And, as a bonus, here is my overall view (like radar in the fog) of this entire situation, which is based on a previous takeover of an entire people and country like this:

SITUATION: USA / American Indians


 

 

Yeah, as I said earlier, you have a very foggy notion of things.

 

The 'list' you posted above is the same idiosyncratic nonsense you've posted on past topics.

Since enough time was wasted on explaining to you how ignorant and wrong what you posted is, I see no reason to repeat it again.

 

How you 'define' things is irrelevant.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

I am not whitewashing Hamas, but I will also not allow you to spread false propaganda and lies without being called out on it.

 

Read the article before you post next time, then you might not be so annoyed when when your caught out lying. Furthermore, unless you want me to report your post, I suggest you delete the part where you insulted me.

 

You are exactly doing this. Or rather, trying to and failing.

Will now allow? Who do you think you are?

 

I was not 'caught out lying' other than in your imagination.

And I'm not impressed by your threats.

[Brickleberry]

Interesting to note the drop in support for Israel. Months ago, there were so many keyboard warriors defending the indefensible - the slaughter of thousands of innocent women & children.

 

Now we have just two or three usual suspects who attempt to obfuscate and draw the discussion away from the facts on the ground. I wonder whether they will remain staunch supporters if the ICJ rules Israel is committing genocide, or will they try to claim that the ICJ is antisemitic?

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

Is it biased to point out that the two women themselves were categorically not raped?

 

Is it biased to point out the inconsistencies: they claim that they were not allowed to talk to each other, so the woman said "I could tell by the look in her eyes that she had just been raped when the Hamas terrorist took her to the toilet"

 

A little later in the article they claim to have "seen with their own eyes men and women being abused" (they didn't say rape) - again why would they take some of them to the toilet to be raped, but then do it in front of all of them a little later? Why no details or names? Why were these two women not raped, but a lot of the others were (according to them)?

 

This is just called fact checking. Not Bias. I am sure that some rape did occur, but it is highly unlikely to be systemic and en mass. Until evidence proves otherwise, I will hold the view that it is Israeli military propaganda.

No one here or in the article claimed they were raped, the article specifically commences with this, why do you need to state the obvious?

 

"Aviva Siegel (L) and her daughter Shir testify at the Knesset caucus on victims of sexual and gender violence in the war"

 

Yes you showed extreme bias and total lack of respect to their testimonies, what they went through and the courage to speak out in public about it. Disgusting

Edited January 24 by Bkk Brian

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

Interesting to note the drop in support for Israel. Months ago, there were so many keyboard warriors defending the indefensible - the slaughter of thousands of innocent women & children.

 

Now we have just two or three usual suspects who attempt to obfuscate and draw the discussion away from the facts on the ground. I wonder whether they will remain staunch supporters if the ICJ rules Israel is committing genocide, or will they try to claim that the ICJ is antisemitic?

 

There's a general decline in participation on these topics, it's the same each time.

Your one sided nonsense views apparently include this as well. Thanks for demonstrating it again.

[Jingthing]

20 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Me too, we agree.

 

However, they will keep doing it until they get an independent state. This is the only solution.

 

Can you agree that Bibi & his right wing pals have been an obstacle to peace since 1996? Can you agree that Bibi helped Hamas become what they are?

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

Based on the Hamas charter goals, the "independent" state you speak of is a radical extremist Islamist caliphate, the end of Israel, and killing all the Jews (not only Israeli Jews).

Stop trying to make them sound like anything other than a terrorist organization.

[Jingthing]

17 hours ago, WDSmart said:

No, I don't see much of a difference between the two extreme, right-wing, nationalistic factions of either side: Hamas and Zionists. It seems like they are both in control of the military efforts at this time.

I do see a difference in whose land that should be, and that is it should be Palestine, not Isreal. I'd like to see a one-state solution, one where the land is occupied by both sides equally. I'm not in favor of a two-state solution where the Palestinians are forced to live in two small areas, and the Israelis occupy the rest of the land. What I think will happen will be a one-state solution where there will ONLY be Jews, no Palestinians or Muslims at all, or if there are, they will not be given full rights as citizens. 

A one state solution is totally incompatible with the continued existence of Israel. Which you obviously know and are clear that you oppose the continued existence of Israel. Inconvenient that Israel exists and the vast majority of Israelis were born there and aren't going anywhere.

As far as an Israel without Muslims, that's ignorant.

Israel already has 20 percent Arabs as citizens.

They want to stay as Israeli citizens. They are free to leave if they want!

If that's "apartheid" then I'm the Sultan of Freedonia.

What Israel can't have and remain Israel is a majority of non-Jews.

That offends some people. Tough cookies.

Edited January 24 by Jingthing

[Brickleberry]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Based on the Hamas charter goals, the "independent" state you speak of is a radical extremist Islamist caliphate, the end of Israel, and killing all the Jews (not only Israeli Jews).

Stop trying to make them sound like anything other than a terrorist organization.

 

'they' in my sentence was referring to the Palestinian people, not Hamas.

 

Hamas are a terrorist organization, but they are also freedom fighters (Hamas literally translates as resistance fighters). Two things can be true at the same time. They can be an abhorrent terrorist organization, but they can also be an oppressed people fighting for the right to self determination. Their methods, charter etc are disgusting, and they can not be allowed to continue.

 

The same can be said of the Israeli government. It is a radical right wing government with its own agenda - to push as many Palestinians out of the West bank and grab as much land as they can. To prop up Hamas and deny the Palestinians any chance of an independent state - from the river to the sea (Bibi's own words). Israel may be a democracy, but it is also a racist, apartheid state.

 

Don't agree with me? Then why not listen to senior Jewish Israelis who say the same thing:

https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate

Quote

 In 2022, Michael Ben-Yair, a former attorney general of Israel, said that “it is with great sadness ... I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime.” 

Quote

 Tamir Pardo, a former head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, emphasized, too, that “there is an apartheid state here” featuring “two people [who] are judged under two legal systems.”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

Quote

As Yossi Sarid, a former Israeli cabinet minister, ex-leader of the opposition, and member of the Knesset for 32 years, put it in 2008: “What acts like apartheid, is run like apartheid and harasses like apartheid, is not a duck – it is apartheid.”

Quote

Leading Israeli politicians have warned for years that their country was sliding into apartheid. They include two former prime ministers, Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert, who can hardly be dismissed as antisemites or hating Israel.

“As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish or non-democratic,” Barak said in 2010. “If this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state.”

 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

'they' in my sentence was referring to the Palestinian people, not Hamas.

 

Hamas are a terrorist organization, but they are also freedom fighters (Hamas literally translates as resistance fighters). Two things can be true at the same time. They can be an abhorrent terrorist organization, but they can also be an oppressed people fighting for the right to self determination. Their methods, charter etc are disgusting, and they can not be allowed to continue.

 

The same can be said of the Israeli government. It is a radical right wing government with its own agenda - to push as many Palestinians out of the West bank and grab as much land as they can. To prop up Hamas and deny the Palestinians any chance of an independent state - from the river to the sea (Bibi's own words). Israel may be a democracy, but it is also a racist, apartheid state.

 

Don't agree with me? Then why not listen to senior Jewish Israelis who say the same thing:

https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

You want the Israeli government to not exist means you don't want Israel to exist. Hamas would love you!

[Nick Carter icp]

12 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

'they' in my sentence was referring to the Palestinian people, not Hamas.

 

Hamas are a terrorist organization, but they are also freedom fighters (Hamas literally translates as resistance fighters). Two things can be true at the same time. They can be an abhorrent terrorist organization, but they can also be an oppressed people fighting for the right to self determination. Their methods, charter etc are disgusting, and they can not be allowed to continue.

 

The same can be said of the Israeli government. It is a radical right wing government with its own agenda - to push as many Palestinians out of the West bank and grab as much land as they can. To prop up Hamas and deny the Palestinians any chance of an independent state - from the river to the sea (Bibi's own words). Israel may be a democracy, but it is also a racist, apartheid state.

 

Don't agree with me? Then why not listen to senior Jewish Israelis who say the same thing:

https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

 

 

   Yet another person who doesn't understand the difference between a terrorist organisation and a legitimate Government 

[Brickleberry]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You want the Israeli government to not exist means you don't want Israel to exist. Hamas would love you!

 

LOL. So instead of debating me on the merits of the argument, you decide to ignore what I wrote entirely and say things that I did not say. If you can show just one single post where I say Israel's government can not exist, then you might have a point.

 

Pointing out that Israels right wing government is a part of the problem, and their recent denials of a Palestinian state from the river to the sea is a fact. Most political commentators now agree that Bibi's government can not be a part of the peace process without a change of stance on this very important issue, because they do not want a two state solution.

 

So which is it? Do you want a two state solution, or do you want a one state solution? You can't have your righteously indignant cake and eat it too... your living in lala land! You do not want a one state solution, because you feel that would spell the end of Israel. You do not advocate for a two state solution, because you support Israels right wing government. So I can only conclude that you advocate for the destruction of every single Palestinian in Gaza and the west bank.

Edited January 24 by Brickleberry

[ozimoron]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You want the Israeli government to not exist means you don't want Israel to exist. Hamas would love you!

 

Seriously? Did he say he didn't want the Israeli government to exist or did you have mushrooms on toast for breakfast this morning?

[Nick Carter icp]

6 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

 

Pointing out that Israels right wing government is a part of the problem, and their recent denials of a Palestinian state from the river to the sea is a fact. Most political commentators now agree that Bibi's government can not be a part of the peace process without a change of stance on this very important issue, because they do not want a two state solution.

 

 

 

  Do you know what "the river to the sea " means ?

[Brickleberry]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Seriously? Did he say he didn't want the Israeli government to exist or did you have mushrooms on toast for breakfast this morning?

 

No I didn't say anything even close to resembling that.

 

Notice that Jingthing did not respond to any of the valid comments quoted from Israeli prime ministers, Mossad intelligence chiefs and Attorney generals.

 

When they do not have an argument, they obfuscate, lie and offend.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Seriously? Did he say he didn't want the Israeli government to exist or did you have mushrooms on toast for breakfast this morning?

He  did.

Pay attention.

 

Quote

 

...

 Their methods, charter etc are disgusting, and they can not be allowed to continue.

 

The same can be said of the Israeli government.

 

 

[Brickleberry]

2 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Do you know what "the river to the sea " means ?

 

Yes.

 

When Palestinian protesters say it, they are advocating for the destruction of Israel as a state & Jewish people.

When Israels right wing government say it, they are advocating for the destruction of a Palestinian state & Palestinian people.

 

[Morch]

22 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

'they' in my sentence was referring to the Palestinian people, not Hamas.

 

Hamas are a terrorist organization, but they are also freedom fighters (Hamas literally translates as resistance fighters). Two things can be true at the same time. They can be an abhorrent terrorist organization, but they can also be an oppressed people fighting for the right to self determination. Their methods, charter etc are disgusting, and they can not be allowed to continue.

 

The same can be said of the Israeli government. It is a radical right wing government with its own agenda - to push as many Palestinians out of the West bank and grab as much land as they can. To prop up Hamas and deny the Palestinians any chance of an independent state - from the river to the sea (Bibi's own words). Israel may be a democracy, but it is also a racist, apartheid state.

 

Don't agree with me? Then why not listen to senior Jewish Israelis who say the same thing:

https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

 

Here we go again....

 

Quote

Hamas literally translates as resistance fighters

 

No, it does not. Hamas in an acronym. The 'm' part would reference 'resistance' in Arabic, but the full version is 'Islamic Resistance Movement'. Hamas was initially actually bemused by the acronym, but it caught on and was adopted.

 

As for your snippets above, what they actually show is that Israel got a plurality of opinions, and relative freedom to express them. When you provide similar snippets from Palestinians, Hamas members, Gazans - you may have a point.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Yes.

 

When Palestinian protesters say it, they are advocating for the destruction of Israel as a state & Jewish people.

When Israels right wing government say it, they are advocating for the destruction of a Palestinian state & Palestinian people.

 

You're promoting a false equivalence.
Hamas charter is kill all Jews.

There are rabidly hateful Israelis and some are sadly in government but Kill all Palestinians has never been the policy of the State of Israel. 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

He  did.

Pay attention.

 

Quote

 

...

 Their methods, charter etc are disgusting, and they can not be allowed to continue.

 

The same can be said of the Israeli government.

 

 

The only rational conclusion from that is that he doesn't want this (the Netanyahu / Likud government) to continue. You are trolling, you can't seriously have missed that.

[Brickleberry]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

He  did.

Pay attention.

 

 

 

erm... can you read? Using adjectives to describe the Israeli government as disgusting and their methods should not be allowed to continue is not the same as saying the Israeli government should not exist.I also explicitly point out that it is not all of the Israeli government. I mention multiple times that it is the right wing. The right wing elements form Bibi's government, and they need to go. Let the moderates and left wing solve the problems.

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're promoting a false equivalence.
Hamas charter is kill all Jews.

There are rabidly hateful Israelis and some are sadly in government but Kill all Palestinians has never been the policy of the State of Israel. 

 

Likud is a charter to remove all Palestinians from the river to the sea.

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

Edited January 24 by ozimoron

[Jingthing]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

 

The only rational conclusion from that is that he doesn't want this (the Netanyahu / Likud government) to continue. You are trolling, you can't seriously have missed that.

I posted it and you deny it. Can't help you!

[Brickleberry]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're promoting a false equivalence.
Hamas charter is kill all Jews.

There are rabidly hateful Israelis and some are sadly in government but Kill all Palestinians has never been the policy of the State of Israel. 

 

The state of Israel is led by those right wing elements that you describe. So until they are elected out of office, one must conclude that it is.

 

Note that instead of discussing the issues I raised, we are still talking about what I said. Classic obfuscation - distract and avoid.

 

Engage in the debate, not name calling tactics please.

Edited January 24 by Brickleberry

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Yes.

 

When Palestinian protesters say it, they are advocating for the destruction of Israel as a state & Jewish people.

When Israels right wing government say it, they are advocating for the destruction of a Palestinian state & Palestinian people.

 

 

That is not true.

Saying that there won't be a Palestinian State between the river to the sea is not the same as the 'destruction' of a Palestinian State, since it doesn't even exist, and of course, it does not imply that with regard to the Palestinian people. This, by the way, is not an endorsement of that saying - just a comment on your nonsense claims.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

erm... can you read? Using adjectives to describe the Israeli government as disgusting and their methods should not be allowed to continue is not the same as saying the Israeli government should not exist.I also explicitly point out that it is not all of the Israeli government. I mention multiple times that it is the right wing. The right wing elements form Bibi's government, and they need to go. Let the moderates and left wing solve the problems.

 

Disregarding your inability to make a coherent argument without getting into these pitfalls, how would you suggest dealing with a situation where the rejectionist elements on both sides hold sway? Or even if they are a majority on only one of the sides?

 

Saying stuff like 'they need to go' doesn't answer that.

[Brickleberry]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

That is not true.

Saying that there won't be a Palestinian State between the river to the sea is not the same as the 'destruction' of a Palestinian State, since it doesn't even exist, and of course, it does not imply that with regard to the Palestinian people. This, by the way, is not an endorsement of that saying - just a comment on your nonsense claims.

 

Again, you can't have your cake and eat it!

 

You don't want a one state solution - this would lead to the destruction of Israel as we know it.

You don't endorse a two state solution because you support the river to the sea analogy as said by the Israeli far right government.

 

So this must mean the ethnic cleansing or genocide of the Palestinian people, right? Where else would they go?