Non-Buddhist households: What about monks' alms, spirit houses?

[henrik2000]

Hello, if you are a a non-Buddhism-practicing household in small town Thailand (Thai household members also not practicing Buddhism), how do you deal with

- alms for monks

- spirit house?

Do you just don't do these things? Or do you follow the custom partly anyway; if yes, why? What are your thoughts around this?

 

-- Irrelevant background: --

I bicycled a lot through rural and small town Thailand as a tourist, often at 6 a.m. already, seeing the monks' alms rounds, and I dreamed a lot about moving there, and these questions came up, silly as they may sound. Thanks for your real life experience! So sorry if question annoying.

 

Edited January 23 by henrik2000

[KannikaP]

You should contribute to whichever religion you have been brainwashed to believe.

Do Thai Muslims contribute to the Buddhist temple, and vice versa. No. 

Do Christians? in UK contribute to the Mosques, and vice versa. No.

Or Rastafarians to the Mormons?

Edited January 23 by KannikaP

[Morch]

Mrs. is a Buddhist, prays (at home) regularly at a shrine in 'her' room. Other than that, very little.

No spirit house (too much trouble, and apparently if you don't maintain it, them 'ghosts'/'spirits' can invade).

No alms for monks (they don't come that often anyway) because it's way too early, and their handler is annoying.

 

No one in the village ever said anything, criticized etc. It's an 'up to you' thing.

 

Similarly, only go to the village temple for elections, other religious business (when needed) conducted elsewhere.

Never properly stopped at the village shrine either.

 

Nobody cares.

[KannikaP]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

Similarly, only go to the village temple for elections, other religious business (when needed) conducted elsewhere.

Like your funeral?  Ha ha

[henrik2000]

19 minutes ago, Morch said:

Nobody cares.

Thanks, interesting observations. As an outsider, I had thought it might be different.

[Denim]

Monks only stop at homes where someone is waiting outside to make merit and give alms. No force or persuasion or stigma if you don't  bother. In our rural soi there are more that don't bother than do. Up to you.

 

Spirit houses have nothing to do with Buddhism  are also totally optional. My wife won't have a little spirit house even as a garden ornament as if not maintained the spirits can get nasty  and turn malevolent.  Best not to bother is her opinion.

 

If you want to live in a rural village speaking Thai will make the experience a lot more rewarding and you will get to know some nice people. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, henrik2000 said:

Thanks, interesting observations. As an outsider, I had thought it might be different.

 

Maybe it is in other places. It's a big country, many different communities.

I'm sure other members may have different experiences, takes.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, KannikaP said:

Like your funeral?  Ha ha

 

FiL's, and a couple of related ceremonies later on.

 

[jts-khorat]

41 minutes ago, Denim said:

Monks only stop at homes where someone is waiting outside to make merit and give alms. No force or persuasion or stigma if you don't  bother.

 

Both is of course true.

 

But while there is no stigma if you do not give alms, doing so certainly counts highly in your favor in an Isaan village, as does, from time to time, visiting the temple's morning prayer. It is a very visible step, that you at least try to integrate into the village community, and it is a very easy one to do as well.

 

I found, that when in Isaan, I am up at the time of the morning alms round anyway (thank you, dear chicken!); normally I sit on the veranda and drink my morning coffee around this time and it is just three steps to the road to hand the monks some packages of milk or other daily necessity... and as it is the village, everybody watches (and talks).

[henrik2000]

Denim and JTS, thanks for more insights!

 

1 hour ago, jts-khorat said:

it is just three steps to the road to hand the monks some packages of milk or other daily necessity...

When you do so, do you show the highly respectful behaviour shown by Thai people? Do you take care to keep your head below the monk's head? Or do you hand them the things like you would hand them to any other guy?

[jts-khorat]

28 minutes ago, henrik2000 said:

Denim and JTS, thanks for more insights!

 

When you do so, do you show the highly respectful behaviour shown by Thai people? Do you take care to keep your head below the monk's head? Or do you hand them the things like you would hand them to any other guy?

 

Of course I behave like the Thais, but I lived there for many years (now back in Germany) and speak the language, so this might not be applicable to you at all.

 

But the main thing is, wholeheartedly and genuinely doing a good act. If you are relatively new to Thailand, people will of course notice, but Thais are very open and it is the gesture that counts for them. You learn from there, as we all do.

 

If you are shy, have another Thai accompany you, so you get a fair warning if you overstep somewhere.

 

But as the Thais say: "Don't think too much!", enjoy yourself, things will then work out well.

[arick]

My partner  and friends are very Buddhist and they are not interested  in having a spirit house on the land.  But did tell me to move my clock from the facing wall to the kitchen. 

[sirineou]

18 hours ago, henrik2000 said:

Denim and JTS, thanks for more insights!

 

When you do so, do you show the highly respectful behaviour shown by Thai people? Do you take care to keep your head below the monk's head? Or do you hand them the things like you would hand them to any other guy?

Let your wife deal with it, 

You just smile polity. 

Don't overthink it , As long as you are respectful, Thais know its not your culture and that you mean well.

They appreciate the effort you make. 

Be nice and Thai people will be nice to you. 

 

[connda]

Monks don't ask for food.  They walk and accept for offered by laity.
Spirit Houses are not Buddhism but Animism.

So, if you are not a Buddhist or an Animist?  Up to you.

[connda]

20 hours ago, Denim said:

Monks only stop at homes where someone is waiting outside to make merit and give alms. No force or persuasion or stigma if you don't  bother. In our rural soi there are more that don't bother than do. Up to you.

 

Spirit houses have nothing to do with Buddhism  are also totally optional. My wife won't have a little spirit house even as a garden ornament as if not maintained the spirits can get nasty  and turn malevolent.  Best not to bother is her opinion.

 

If you want to live in a rural village speaking Thai will make the experience a lot more rewarding and you will get to know some nice people. 

However, the vast majority of Thai Buddhists whom I have met are essentially Buddhist Animists.

Edited January 24 by connda

[Denim]

20 minutes ago, connda said:

However, the vast majority of Thai Buddhists whom I have met are essentially Buddhist Animists.

 

They like to hedge their bets it's true. As for the Zebras ??? They remain a mystery to me and most Thai.

 

 

[khunPer]

22 hours ago, henrik2000 said:

Hello, if you are a a non-Buddhism-practicing household in small town Thailand (Thai household members also not practicing Buddhism), how do you deal with

- alms for monks

- spirit house?

Do you just don't do these things? Or do you follow the custom partly anyway; if yes, why? What are your thoughts around this?

 

-- Irrelevant background: --

I bicycled a lot through rural and small town Thailand as a tourist, often at 6 a.m. already, seeing the monks' alms rounds, and I dreamed a lot about moving there, and these questions came up, silly as they may sound. Thanks for your real life experience! So sorry if question annoying.

I just follow the local traditions and what my lovely girlfriend decide to give of alms for the monks; it's her money. I also attend service in a temple – when needed – and politely try to follow the custom.

 

I was mainly the one that insisted on a pair of spirit houses next to my house. Both because it's custom, but also because I like them – I chose a pair of wood houses from Chiang Mai – and just in case, if there are spirits living on the land or from any ancestors, I might also be prevented from being haunted by angry poltergeists inside my own house.

 

Just got my ghost's houses replaced – I hope the ether beings will be happy now – as the former set was worn out after almost 14 years heavy use, helped by the local weather gods...

 

[henrik2000]

Hi all, thanks for more very interesting insight!

 

18 hours ago, sirineou said:

You just smile polity. 

Don't overthink it , As long as you are respectful, Thais know its not your culture and that you mean well.

They appreciate the effort you make. 

Be nice and Thai people will be nice to you.

Yes, this has been my impression too. Personally I would add: Be clean-cut, except you're doing farm work.

 

16 hours ago, khunPer said:

I chose a pair of wood houses from Chiang Mai

Oh, they look really Lanna!

 

I see, one of them has a ladder, one has none. In the ghost houses I see on the rice fields, they always have a letter. Are they for spirits that can't fly?

[khunPer]

4 hours ago, henrik2000 said:

21 hours ago, khunPer said:

I chose a pair of wood houses from Chiang Mai

Oh, they look really Lanna!

 

I see, one of them has a ladder, one has none. In the ghost houses I see on the rice fields, they always have a letter. Are they for spirits that can't fly?

They – the two spirit houses – are for two different kind of spirits.

 

The one with the ladder is for the garden-spirits Chao Thi or spirits of the land – they seems to need a ladder to climb up into their home – while the one post house is for the ancestor's spirits or spirits of the house, or the house guards Phra Phum, which apparently seems to be more ether-beings and able to fly into the home.

 

In rice fields it Phi Na you needs to make happy. That spirit is guardian of fields and rice paddy, and also needs a ladder.

 

It is (extremely) important, always to ask the spirits for permission.

 

There are 8 further ghosts/spirits besides the ones for garden and house and fields. They are the guards for gates and stairs, why you never must step on the doorstep to a Thai house; guardians of animals; guardians of storehouses and barns yards; guardian of forrest/woods; guardian of mountains; guardian of fruit plantagens; guardian of water; and guardians of military defence installations.

 

Old spirit houses cannot just be disposed, they needs to placed in a wood. Where I live we have a road called Ghost Road, where the old outdated spirit houses ends...

 

 

You might also see a tree with lots of coloured bands and often women's dress and shoes, they are for phi nang Ta-khian / younger sister Ta-khian-ghost. She is the keeper of the merawan wood, called ta-khian in Thai, a wood that has excellent properties for building the characteristic Long-tail boats. If you cut down the tree and use it for something other than boat building, for example to build a house, nang Ta-Khian will take cruel revenge, death may be the result...

 

 

Larger companies, on the other hand, have a shrine to Phra Phrom, the Thai representation of the Hindu god deva Brahma, who is generally believed to protect against danger and bring prosperity in business...

 

 

Spirits seem to prefer red drinks – especially Red Est or Red Fanta – for which there is not one good explanation. A newspaper (I cannot mention due to Forum-rules) wrote in an article that the red drinks may be due to kuman thong, which is marked as a figure of a little boy, or nang kwak, the beckoning younger girl. Child ghosts are said to like red drinks, just like other children. But it could also be because the red sweet drink is sweet enough to have enough energy for wishes to be fulfilled. The article added that there are many possibilities, and also mentions blood, that devotees probably don't want to cut themselves every day to please these beings, so instead they started offering them bottles of red potion - to trick them...

 

 

So, I always store Red Fanta in my house...

 

[henrik2000]

2 hours ago, khunPer said:

There are 8 further ghosts/spirits besides the ones for garden and house and fields

Thanks, you cleared up some questions that baffled me. I've seen discarded spirit houses also in backyards of wats, always around a tree. I wonder if there are ceremonies to put up or unemploy a spirit house.

 

You explain also why the spirit houses i see in the fields always have a ladder.

[khunPer]

19 hours ago, henrik2000 said:

Thanks, you cleared up some questions that baffled me. I've seen discarded spirit houses also in backyards of wats, always around a tree. I wonder if there are ceremonies to put up or unemploy a spirit house.

 

You explain also why the spirit houses i see in the fields always have a ladder.

Thanks for your comment.

 

About ceremonies.

When a spirit house is put up there will (normally) not be any ghosts moving in. You need a brahmin or shaman to make the ether-beings aware of their new home(s). There are going to be both be plenty of food and other stuff to make the new place interesting for the ghosts. The Shaman will place the small figurs that symbolic are going to host the invisible inhabitants of the house. The shaman will also shout at the spirits to force them to move into the house and often use noisy fireworks, just like the Chinese use fireworks at Chinese New Year to clean the houses from bad spirits. That kind of beings hate loud noises, also cymbals and drums are effective.

 

Some of my images from a housewarming party for ghosts...

 

 

 

 

 

 

As with the much in Thailand, the ceremony can vary from area to area, some places Buddhist monks will do the ceremony and persuade the spirits to move in.

 

Nobody dare to touch an abandoned spirit house remaining in place. It needs to be moved to a forest. There might still be some beings living in the house and – probably not to be haunted by ghosts – abandoned spirit houses in a forest might still have fresh gifts placed in front for a while, like this abandoned home at Ghost Road, where a figure that might be hosting a ghost is still sitting there...

 

 

If a ghost has already moved in, you can satisfy it with a shrine. The story here is about a spirit that lived in a sacred palm – a very high straight palm, unlike the often bended coconut palms. A foreigner bought the land a wanted to build a house, but was told that he could not cut down that sacred palm in the middle – no workers dared to do it – so he had his coming luxury house designed with the sacred palm standing in the middle, actually in a part of the living room, which made the house look quite outstanding.

However, the coming house owner didn't show up for a ceremony to ask the spirits of the land's for permission to build the new house. That means bad luck – the house will never be a lucky home. A lightning hit the sacred palm-tree so it died during the building process; not to forget to say that the workers got really scared. Now the house was reconstructed so there would be roof over the area where the sacred palm once was.

 

A old lady living nearby had a dream – or enlightment – where a ghost came to her and told her that it's home had burned by lightning and the new house owner didn't give the spirit new home – i.e., placed a spirit house on the land plot, where you some times will place a temporary home for the spirits of the land during house construction – so now the spirit has moved in a big three on a nearby land plot, neighbouring the old lady.

 

The old lady had a shrine placed for the new inhabitant in the tree...

 

 

The foreigner that build the new house never placed any homes for ghosts and (therefore) had many problems – the roof was leaking and resultet in heavy water damages – and finally he had to sell it, as it became too expensive to keep, some of the money also came from a mortgage. A new foreign owner also got lots of serious problems – and also more water damages plus the costs of a new roof on top of the old one – and finally gave up to stay in the house, which is abandoned at the moment. It has been up for sale – however, the sign seems to disappear a couple of times, without the house being sold – so if you are interested in spending $2.5 million in a haunted home, you might have a bargain right here.

 

Therefore, in Thailand it's (very) important always to ask permission from the ether beings and in general have a good relationship with them. If you build a house, have the monks or an astrologer to give you the right starting time and point the lucky post, which is the first one to be raised. And don't forget to place a small piece of gold under it. And don't forget gifts to the spirits and attend the ceremony yourself as coming house owner – even that you don't believe in ghost, your workers and neighbours do – you never know what is the truth.

 

The photo is the erection of the lucky post when I build my house in 2009 – and yes, i have had no problems (so far)...

 

[henrik2000]

1 hour ago, khunPer said:

About ceremonies.

O wow, thanks for great insights with text and images!

 

Let's next talk about flower garlands, but not yet.

[digbeth]

as far as your standing in the communities, maybe the village gossiped if you don't offer the monks alms.. but it's in private

 

I find that turning up to the big temple festival once in a while is good to satisfy the aunties of the village and they'll mention that they saw you at the temple for years, 

neighbor's funerals and such is attended as needed of course

[proton]

On 1/26/2024 at 2:35 PM, khunPer said:

Thanks for your comment.

 

About ceremonies.

When a spirit house is put up there will (normally) not be any ghosts moving in. You need a brahmin or shaman to make the ether-beings aware of their new home(s). There are going to be both be plenty of food and other stuff to make the new place interesting for the ghosts. The Shaman will place the small figurs that symbolic are going to host the invisible inhabitants of the house. The shaman will also shout at the spirits to force them to move into the house and often use noisy fireworks, just like the Chinese use fireworks at Chinese New Year to clean the houses from bad spirits. That kind of beings hate loud noises, also cymbals and drums are effective.

 

Some of my images from a housewarming party for ghosts...

 

 

 

 

 

 

As with the much in Thailand, the ceremony can vary from area to area, some places Buddhist monks will do the ceremony and persuade the spirits to move in.

 

Nobody dare to touch an abandoned spirit house remaining in place. It needs to be moved to a forest. There might still be some beings living in the house and – probably not to be haunted by ghosts – abandoned spirit houses in a forest might still have fresh gifts placed in front for a while, like this abandoned home at Ghost Road, where a figure that might be hosting a ghost is still sitting there...

 

 

If a ghost has already moved in, you can satisfy it with a shrine. The story here is about a spirit that lived in a sacred palm – a very high straight palm, unlike the often bended coconut palms. A foreigner bought the land a wanted to build a house, but was told that he could not cut down that sacred palm in the middle – no workers dared to do it – so he had his coming luxury house designed with the sacred palm standing in the middle, actually in a part of the living room, which made the house look quite outstanding.

However, the coming house owner didn't show up for a ceremony to ask the spirits of the land's for permission to build the new house. That means bad luck – the house will never be a lucky home. A lightning hit the sacred palm-tree so it died during the building process; not to forget to say that the workers got really scared. Now the house was reconstructed so there would be roof over the area where the sacred palm once was.

 

A old lady living nearby had a dream – or enlightment – where a ghost came to her and told her that it's home had burned by lightning and the new house owner didn't give the spirit new home – i.e., placed a spirit house on the land plot, where you some times will place a temporary home for the spirits of the land during house construction – so now the spirit has moved in a big three on a nearby land plot, neighbouring the old lady.

 

The old lady had a shrine placed for the new inhabitant in the tree...

 

 

The foreigner that build the new house never placed any homes for ghosts and (therefore) had many problems – the roof was leaking and resultet in heavy water damages – and finally he had to sell it, as it became too expensive to keep, some of the money also came from a mortgage. A new foreign owner also got lots of serious problems – and also more water damages plus the costs of a new roof on top of the old one – and finally gave up to stay in the house, which is abandoned at the moment. It has been up for sale – however, the sign seems to disappear a couple of times, without the house being sold – so if you are interested in spending $2.5 million in a haunted home, you might have a bargain right here.

 

Therefore, in Thailand it's (very) important always to ask permission from the ether beings and in general have a good relationship with them. If you build a house, have the monks or an astrologer to give you the right starting time and point the lucky post, which is the first one to be raised. And don't forget to place a small piece of gold under it. And don't forget gifts to the spirits and attend the ceremony yourself as coming house owner – even that you don't believe in ghost, your workers and neighbours do – you never know what is the truth.

 

The photo is the erection of the lucky post when I build my house in 2009 – and yes, i have had no problems (so far)...

 

 

Excellent posts, needs to be pinned in the right place for reference