Advice request: Buying agricultural land without deed in Chiang Dao

[dherealmark]

I want to build a small Farmstay up on a hill in Chiang Dao. We'll buy the land and partner up with two Thái friends. 

 

The advice I need is around the legality of constructing a small farm house and bathhouse (onsen style) on the land. Mainly for personal use and Airbnb for some friends and others that plan to stay. Very small around 3 rooms. Two which will be our private homes. 

 

What I've done so far:

1. Shared the concept with neighbour for idea of water and infrature. He has a water treatment setup for irrigation so he'll help us with the setup. 

- he wants to setup afro based tourism himself so my plan is to partner with him and get a share of his neighouring land and create a join Farmstay. He's open to it. 

2.spoke with some local business owners on running a small biz on land without deed. Seems like a norm in this village. 

3. Hired a lawyer who will do due diligence on the zone of land, assist when we meet up with the village leader and restrictions and limitation on the project. 

 

Context on land:

1. Land has a rubber tree plantation in agricultural zone (to be confirmed). And seems to he active rubber tapping. 

2. Close to cafes and agricultural farms so the farming zone checks out. Not in a wildlife area and in the village with houses not more than 3mins away. So it shouldn't be a forest zone. 

3.Land is close to 4 government water reservoirs which we can connect with pipes and treat to get water

 

Concept idea

1. Communal kitchen and cafe for the inhabitants (owners and guests) 

2. Onsen bathhouse for bathing 

3. Farm house. Two to start with. 

4. Garden with active agricultural operations (flower nursery, Banana and bamboo trees). 

5. Build a pond to attract birds for photography and promote fauna

 

Idea to stay legal:

1. My idea is that as long as we're agrobased farm, we're good. I plan to have a garden and trees and sell produce to have agriculture based products on the books of accounts. 

2. First two years will just be personal and friends to test out concepts. I'm completely fine keep the land for personal use and family and friends. It's not a goal to get much commerce 

 

My concerns:

1. Clearing out rubber trees to make the houses, onsen and garden. Maybe if I replace it with other agriculture elements like smaller trees, plants, I'll be good? But not sure about legal status of clearing part of the rubber trees. Probably just 0.3 Rai and not all of it. The total land is 4 Rai. 

2. Operating in land without deed. I hear chanote is the best deed to acquire. But since this land doesn't have a deed I wonder once we do get a deed if we'll get a favorable deed that allows us to construct as I see some deeds might not allow you to do the same. 

 

Anything else I've missed? 

 

Edited January 24 by dherealmark
More context

[FritsSikkink]

AIRBNB on agricultural land seems a problem to me.

[simon43]

Land without a deed..... you mean that it has no deed of any type?!  Well, that might be the 'norm' in ban nork for Thai people, but you (as a foreigner) have zero legal legs to stand on.

[Will B Good]

Isn't law about to change?...........land given away to the poor years ago is about to come back onto the market.....it always has been bought and sold, but it is now about to become legal to do so.

[dherealmark]

Yeah I can see that. I don't mind having it as a personal boutique farm for me and some friends. I could eventually sell the share to another if I wish. But the investment is so insignificant that I don't need to make a profit commercially. Ofcourse. I'd make a lot interms of living off the land and learning some IRL skills. 

 

Minus the Airbnb part, would you say it's okay? 

[dherealmark]

3 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

Isn't law about to change?...........land given away to the poor years ago is about to come back onto the market.....it always has been bought and sold, but it is now about to become legal to do so.

Its owned partially by a chinese lady and Thai. So I wouldn't say the owners are poor. I'd meet the village council leader and discuss in a few days. But I did hear that the village has submitted a proposal to get a deed. So not sure if that's what you meant. But again that's probably a two or three year process. 

[dherealmark]

19 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Land without a deed..... you mean that it has no deed of any type?!  Well, that might be the 'norm' in ban nork for Thai people, but you (as a foreigner) have zero legal legs to stand on.

Maybe. I'm going to speak with some foreigners that own land without a deed. I do have a Thai partner. Two in fact. 

 

 

[SAFETY FIRST]

1 hour ago, dherealmark said:

Buying agricultural land without deed

 

Anything else I've missed? 

I reckon so...... 

You are not buying anything without a deed (Chanote). 

 

Edited January 24 by SAFETY FIRST

[Will B Good]

10 minutes ago, dherealmark said:

Its owned partially by a chinese lady and Thai. So I wouldn't say the owners are poor. I'd meet the village council leader and discuss in a few days. But I did hear that the village has submitted a proposal to get a deed. So not sure if that's what you meant. But again that's probably a two or three year process. 

Foreigners are not allowed to purchase land? Where does the Chinese lady fit in to this?

 

The deed thing I am referring to is massive......the government are basically allowing huge tracts of land that previously could only be handed down to close relatives to be sold......legally....so land prices might crash.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 minutes ago, dherealmark said:

Yeah I can see that. I don't mind having it as a personal boutique farm for me and some friends. I could eventually sell the share to another if I wish. But the investment is so insignificant that I don't need to make a profit commercially. Ofcourse. I'd make a lot interms of living off the land and learning some IRL skills. 

 

Minus the Airbnb part, would you say it's okay? 

It is not and never will be "your" land.

If it all goes wrong are you able to walk away with nothing for it?

Are you able to get a work permit to run an Airbnb?

[dherealmark]

2 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

Foreigners are not allowed to purchase land? Where does the Chinese lady fit in to this?

 

The deed thing I am referring to is massive......the government are basically allowing huge tracts of land that previously could only be handed down to close relatives to be sold......legally....so land prices might crash.

Oh I see. Do you have a source for the same? 

 

Foreigners are allowed to own land through private limited company where they own 49% of the company the rest is owned by the Thai partners. I plan to get the building and farming in the land handled by my Thai partners. I know them for a while and one is willing to make me owner in his land in exchange as well. Given the reasonable pricing. I don't see a huge issue. 

 

I have a chinese friend who bough land (with deed) through the same method and setup a legal private agreement to protect her interests. Yeah they can <deleted> her over. But in my case I plan to share the profits with them in exchange for land and knowhow. 

[thaibeachlovers]

14 minutes ago, dherealmark said:

Maybe. I'm going to speak with some foreigners that own land without a deed. I do have a Thai partner. Two in fact. 

 

 

They are not "partners" when it comes to land ownership- they are the owners.

Just because some foreigners get away with breaking the law does not mean you will be able to.

[northsouthdevide]

Im not sure what you mean by no deed, but in my area  land without chanote, but with sor por cor title, 

People are able to open homestay as long as they dont exceed 4 units per deed. 

 

[Will B Good]

3 minutes ago, dherealmark said:

Oh I see. Do you have a source for the same? 

 

Foreigners are allowed to own land through private limited company where they own 49% of the company the rest is owned by the Thai partners. I plan to get the building and farming in the land handled by my Thai partners. I know them for a while and one is willing to make me owner in his land in exchange as well. Given the reasonable pricing. I don't see a huge issue. 

 

I have a chinese friend who bough land (with deed) through the same method and setup a legal private agreement to protect her interests. Yeah they can <deleted> her over. But in my case I plan to share the profits with them in exchange for land and knowhow. 

https://www.thailandnews.co/2024/01/25000-thai-farmers-to-receive-land-titles-in-nationwide-initiative/

[SAFETY FIRST]

1 hour ago, dherealmark said:

I want to build a small Farmstay up on a hill in Chiang Dao. We'll buy the land and partner up with two Thái friends

Try this Facebook group. 

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/727056641837249/?ref=share&mibextid=NSMWBT

 

 

Avoid buying anything without a title (Chanote). 

 

 

[JeffersLos]

2 hours ago, dherealmark said:

We'll buy the land and partner up with two Thái friends. 

 

Stop right there. 

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, JeffersLos said:

 

Stop right there. 

Nonsense, the no title is a much bigger problem. 

No title often means no proper markings on the land and anyone can claim the land.

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, dherealmark said:

Maybe. I'm going to speak with some foreigners that own land without a deed. I do have a Thai partner. Two in fact.

 

Are you saying there are foreigners that don't have a title to nothing?

[jippytum]

Really. As a foreigner you want to buy land without a deed and start a business. I think you sre the type of person who will press ahead regardless. Good luck with that. 

[PaoloR]

Yes they are giving title as follows: "The Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives is distributing agricultural land title deeds to 25,000 farmers across the country today (Jan 15), converting the “Sor Por Kor 4-01” documents, previously issued as permits for land use in reform areas, into official land titles."

Note: as stated these are agricultural land title deeds and have a restriction on building a habitable building on such land. After a number of years ownership and continuous agricultural use (7, I think) you can apply for the next deed up which has less restriction.

This may seem like a great idea to you but please do some research before diving in. If this is such a good idea why is nobody else doing it?

[KhunLA]

Hope this is just a hobby thing, as you will eventually lose everything you put into it.

 

As long as you realize that from the get go ... have fun.

[brianthainess]

22 hours ago, dherealmark said:

We'll buy the land and partner up with two Thái friends. 

 

21 hours ago, dherealmark said:

Its owned partially by a chinese lady and Thai.

 You wouldn't say they are poor?  so what would you say, well off, rich? A Chinese lady  😱 how can she own it?

I would run as fast as I can over the hill and far away. Electric, water, septic tank install, planning permission, on land with no Title. But sounds like you have it all planned and no one will change your mind.

[KKra]

As I do not think we will  not move again, we are indeed looking for similar land.

As long as the Puyai Baan is informed / approves and you do not build bigger than 100 m2 one floor, or get a full building permit, would not expect too much of a problem. 

If you get properly constructed wooden houses, you can move the houses, pumps etc. in case of being evicted. Just make sure the houses, building permits etc. are in your name, not in the name of the signatories on the land document.

[1FinickyOne]

On 1/24/2024 at 11:15 AM, dherealmark said:

But since this land doesn't have a deed

That should be the end of the conversation. Wherever you are from would you buy land that has no deed?

 

I knew a guy who got a great deal on land that had no chanote. Very inexpensive - Until the real owner of the land came and threw him off. 

[john donson]

create a company that buys the land and you own 49% ... so doable in theory,no ?

2 thais getting 51%

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, jippytum said:

Really. As a foreigner you want to buy land without a deed and start a business. I think you sre the type of person who will press ahead regardless. Good luck with that. 

and then he'll be back with his hard luck story of how those Thais ripped him off and stole "his" land, and isn't Thailand just such a "bad place".

I've heard it all before so many times. Farangs arrive with a big pot full of money wearing the saffron glasses and walk away with only an empty pot to show for their time. I even got caught myself after decades of experience, though I only blame myself for being stupid.

[quake]

Op, Don't do it.

You will lose all your money and maybe,  your mind as well.

Come up with a better idea, that has no business partners.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26 by quake