Despite U.S. pressure, the idea of a Palestinian state seems farther away than ever

[Social Media]

 

Amidst the aftermath of the Hamas invasion on October 7th, the realities of conflict continue to reverberate across Israel, leaving a profound impact on its people and their outlook towards the future. For Doron Shabty, a reservist who found himself thrust into the frontlines of battle, the experience was both harrowing and transformative. His return from over a hundred days in Gaza brought with it a heavy sense of loss, having witnessed the sacrifice of comrades and the toll of war on both sides.

 

 

As Shabty reflects on the events that unfolded, he finds himself grappling with complex emotions. Despite identifying with the political left, he recognizes the necessity of ensuring Israel's security in the face of ongoing threats. The traumatic events of October 7th shattered any illusions of safety, forcing Israelis to confront the stark reality of living alongside hostile neighbors intent on their destruction.

 

The casualties on both sides of the conflict serve as a grim reminder of the human cost of war. While Israeli casualties garner significant attention, the suffering of Gazans and Palestinian citizens of Israel often goes overlooked amidst the prevailing sense of national trauma. The staggering toll of civilian lives lost in Gaza underscores the devastating impact of the conflict, prompting international criticism of Israel's military actions.

 

In the wake of the war, diplomatic efforts to revive discussions of a two-state solution have emerged, yet skepticism abounds among Israelis and Palestinians alike. The deep-seated mistrust between the two sides, compounded by years of conflict and violence, has eroded faith in the prospect of a peaceful resolution. For many Israelis, the notion of security has become intertwined with a sense of existential dread, fueled by the persistent threat of attacks from hostile neighbors.

 

The polls are telling on both sides. The latest Peace Index survey from Tel Aviv University “is a study in hopelessness,” said Dahlia Scheindlin, an Israeli pollster and analyst, in the survey, 94 percent of Israeli Jews and 82 percent of the total population think the Israeli military has used “adequate or too little force” in Gaza. Some 88 percent of all Jewish Israelis think the number of Palestinians killed or wounded in Gaza is justified by the war.

 

Despite President Biden’s support, only 27 percent of Jewish Israelis support a two-state solution, and 38 percent support annexation of the West Bank and Gaza with limited rights for Palestinians. (Similarly, only 24 percent of Palestinians support a two-state solution.)

 

Palestinians in Israel also grapple with their own trauma and sense of displacement, navigating a precarious existence in a society deeply divided along ethnic and political lines. Sally Abed, a Palestinian Israeli, reflects on the challenges of expressing grief and frustration within a polarized society where dissent is often met with hostility.

 

 

Despite the prevailing sense of despair, there are voices of resilience and hope seeking to bridge the divide between Israelis and Palestinians. Naomi Sternberg and Sally Abed, among others, advocate for dialogue and reconciliation as essential steps towards a sustainable peace. They recognize the complexities of the conflict but remain committed to fostering understanding and empathy amidst the prevailing atmosphere of distrust and animosity.

 

As Israel grapples with the aftermath of the war, it faces a critical juncture in its history, where the choices made in the coming days will shape the trajectory of the region for years to come. While the scars of conflict run deep, there remains a glimmer of hope that dialogue and mutual understanding may yet pave the way towards a future defined by peace and coexistence.

 

19.02.24

Source

 

[flyingtlger]

20 minutes ago, Social Media said:

Some 88 percent of all Jewish Israelis think the number of Palestinians killed or wounded in Gaza is justified by the war.

What if the foot was on the other shoe?

Just saying.....

[thaibeachlovers]

I refuse to believe that the US is serious about a two state solution. They have had over 30 years to make it happen, and done sod all to force the israelis to accept it. I just can't see that changing.

IMO it'll just be lip service, while Palestinian territory in the West Bank is stolen, till nothing at all is left.

 

To make it happen, all the Americans have to do is not use the veto in the UN.

Edited February 18 by thaibeachlovers

[Skipalongcassidy]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I refuse to believe that the US is serious about a two state solution. They have had over 30 years to make it happen, and done sod all to force the israelis to accept it. I just can't see that changing.

IMO it'll just be lip service, while Palestinian territory in the West Bank is stolen, till nothing at all is left.

 

To make it happen, all the Americans have to do is not use the veto in the UN.

There will never be a two state solution because muslims will never stop hating and terrorizing... the koran requires jihad.

[freeworld]

Seems today the World Court starts hearings on the "World Court to hear arguments on Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories"

 

News article from Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/world-court-hear-arguments-israeli-occupation-palestinian-territories-2024-02-19/

 

From the ICJ website

https://www.icj-cij.org/case/186

[Arindos]

There was a moment in history where it seemed that young people would switch towards supporting Palestine and Muslims, but nowadays it seems that the young people are more likely to simply stop symbolically supporting Israel because they don't want to be seen as politically incorrect, but refrain from being supportive of the Arabs because they don't actually support the Arabs (i.e. they still support the right of Israel to defend itself but want to be symbolically politically correct).

[ozimoron]

4 hours ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

There will never be a two state solution because muslims will never stop hating and terrorizing... the koran requires jihad.

 

The Likud charter is to deny a Palestinian state and claim the land for Israelis. Always has been. It takes two to tango.

[Jingthing]

Hamas wants to kill all the Jews.

Agree with title -- two state solution further away than ever and it was already very far away. Neither side wants that anyway. Doesn't mean I have the answer though. 

[Brickleberry]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Hamas wants to kill all the Jews.

Agree with title -- two state solution further away than ever and it was already very far away. Neither side wants that anyway. Doesn't mean I have the answer though. 

 

This is just blatantly false. I'm sorry, but this shows a lack of understanding. Arab Jews did not have any problems in the region prior to 1947, and almost a million of them were living in surrounding countries in harmony. Antisemitism did not exist in the Middle East. Even today, their argument is not with Jews, it is with Israelis. Israel does not speak for all Jews in the world. Netanyahu may dream that it does, and he may wish that it does. But it does not. Millions of Jews around the world will tell you the same thing.

 

If you watch interviews done with members of Hamas, they are quite explicit. Antisemitism is a European export to the middle east. Arabs didn't have problems with Jews until they started immigrating in their thousands to Palestine, and kicking out the native Arab population. Don't blame Hamas for this, blame Europeans & Americans. Their racist ideology forced Jews to flee to Palestine, because they were not allowed to enter European countries. If Jews had been allowed to return to their home countries, or not mass expelled from Europe, America & Russia then this problem would not exist today. Some parts of the world seem to think that one religion needs a special country all to itself to keep these people safe. No. Those parts of the world just didn't want to admit how racist they were (and are?) and so they advocate for a European colonial project in the Middle East.

 

Hamas are fed up of being occupied and losing more and more of their lands to Israel. They have (since 2017) wanted a permanent ceasefire and a two state solution based on the pre 1967 borders. They want to live freely, just like Israelis are allowed to. They want to be able to have a state. They want to be able to import and export goods, go to school, have a family, start a business, have a safe life. No one should be able to deny them these rights to exist.

 

Facts are: Israel is a settler colonial state. It is an apartheid state. It is a state built on the dead bodies of thousands of Palestinians. It is a state that has been committing crimes in the region for decades. It frequently breaks international law and is shielded from any repercussions from its ally USA. It uses propaganda to twist facts into fiction. It even has its own version of history where they teach kids in schools that Palestinians did not exist, it is OK to hate Arabs, and that Israelis are the only ones entitled to this land. Its actions over the last few months have been fueling antisemitism around the world, making Jews less safe than they ever were. Ironically, we talk about making Jews less safe, but it is the Palestinians who are again suffering. In America, there have been several hate crimes involving the deaths of American Palestinian men and women. Haven't seen a single Jew killed over this in America, yet all we see in the news is "Jews are not safe on campus/at the movies/comedy club etc" Yet it is Palestinian people who are the ones being killed. Double standards. 

 

The two state solution is dead only while Israel is entertained. The world needs to step up and force Israel to follow international law. Israel cannot break international laws for decades and lock up and mistreat millions of people. I do not have an inclination to hate Jews, but I do distrust Israel and its government - as we should distrust any far right wing government with convicted terrorists serving as ministers in the cabinet - really, look it up. Unfortunately, the Israel blame game is too good, so most people see the Palestinians as terrorists, see the Palestinians as always starting new conflicts, separate the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem as different entities to try and say Israel is only occupying most of the territory, not all of it.

 

 

[simple1]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I refuse to believe that the US is serious about a two state solution. They have had over 30 years to make it happen, and done sod all to force the israelis to accept it. I just can't see that changing.

IMO it'll just be lip service, while Palestinian territory in the West Bank is stolen, till nothing at all is left.

 

To make it happen, all the Americans have to do is not use the veto in the UN.

 

Lol - Israel has ignored UN directives for decades.

[Bkk Brian]

How can there be peace when Hamas are committed to the eradication of Israel? This is an official from Hamas committing to repeat the atrocities from 07/10 again and again.

 

https://twitter.com/JamesCleverly/status/1719718109739688143

 

[billd766]

6 hours ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

There will never be a two state solution because muslims will never stop hating and terrorizing... the koran requires jihad.

What about Netanyahu's point blank refusal to even consider a 2 state solution?

[Brickleberry]

28 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

How can there be peace when Hamas are committed to the eradication of Israel? This is an official from Hamas committing to repeat the atrocities from 07/10 again and again.

 

 

 

How can there be peace when Israel keeps on stealing more and more land. Keeps the population in prison camps for decades. Teaches their kids to hate Arabs. Breaks internatinal law for decades.

 

And you blame Hamas? Hamas have only been around since 1987. Israel has been committing crimes since 1967 - twenty years prior to their formation. I mean, if we're talking chicken and egg, it is quite easy to see who is in the wrong first. Israel. Hamas did not even exist at the time.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Brickleberry said:

 

How can there be peace when Israel keeps on stealing more and more land. Keeps the population in prison camps for decades. Teaches their kids to hate Arabs. Breaks internatinal law for decades.

 

And you blame Hamas? Hamas have only been around since 1987. Israel has been committing crimes since 1967 - twenty years prior to their formation. I mean, if we're talking chicken and egg, it is quite easy to see who is in the wrong first. Israel. Hamas did not even exist at the time.

No  comment on the Hamas terrorist's statement then?

 

The population in prison camps?

 

 

 

[Brickleberry]

13 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No  comment on the Hamas terrorist's statement then?

 

The population in prison camps?

 

You're avoiding the point.

 

Hamas has actually said it will accept a permanent ceasefire, and has consistently said this since 2017 when it changed its charter.

Palestinians do not want Hamas as their government. They do want a permanent peace deal - based on pre-1967 occupation.

 

Of course the population are in prison camps. They cannot move freely within their own lands, and they cannot move freely between their own lands. There is now a case being put to the ICJ that will attempt to force Israel out of these areas, and finally acknowledge the decades long misery that it has piled on the Palestinian people.

 

[Bkk Brian]

15 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

You're avoiding the point.

 

Hamas has actually said it will accept a permanent ceasefire, and has consistently said this since 2017 when it changed its charter.

Palestinians do not want Hamas as their government. They do want a permanent peace deal - based on pre-1967 occupation.

 

Of course the population are in prison camps. They cannot move freely within their own lands, and they cannot move freely between their own lands. There is now a case being put to the ICJ that will attempt to force Israel out of these areas, and finally acknowledge the decades long misery that it has piled on the Palestinian people.

 

I avoided no point, this is about 2 state solutions (the topic) which are not possible with Hamas, that's what my initial post was about and remains as such.

[Bkk Brian]

Yea right, let's just brush aside and forget about 7th Oct..............

 

PA prime minister: We’re ready for unity with Hamas, world needs to forget October 7

Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Mohammad Shtayyeh says the PA is still seeking unity with Hamas terror group and may hold talks with the group in Moscow on February 26.

“Russia has invited all Palestinian factions who will be meeting on the 26 of this month in Moscow. We will see if Hamas is ready to come to the ground with us,”  he says at the Munich Security Conference.

“We are ready to engage. If Hamas is not then that’s a different story. We need Palestinian unity,” he says. He adds that Hamas needs to meet certain prerequisites.

Asked about making common cause with a group that carried out atrocities on October 7, Shtayyeh indicates that the world needs to forget the massacre happened.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pa-prime-minister-were-ready-for-unity-with-hamas-world-needs-to-forget-october-7/

[Brickleberry]

47 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yea right, let's just brush aside and forget about 7th Oct..............

 

PA prime minister: We’re ready for unity with Hamas, world needs to forget October 7

Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Mohammad Shtayyeh says the PA is still seeking unity with Hamas terror group and may hold talks with the group in Moscow on February 26.

“Russia has invited all Palestinian factions who will be meeting on the 26 of this month in Moscow. We will see if Hamas is ready to come to the ground with us,”  he says at the Munich Security Conference.

“We are ready to engage. If Hamas is not then that’s a different story. We need Palestinian unity,” he says. He adds that Hamas needs to meet certain prerequisites.

Asked about making common cause with a group that carried out atrocities on October 7, Shtayyeh indicates that the world needs to forget the massacre happened.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pa-prime-minister-were-ready-for-unity-with-hamas-world-needs-to-forget-october-7/

 

Yea right, let's just brush aside the war crimes and atrocities Israel has committed since 1947. History began on October 7th 2023.....

[Bkk Brian]

12 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Yea right, let's just brush aside the war crimes and atrocities Israel has committed since 1947. History began on October 7th 2023.....

Hamas are still in power "now" and it's about solving the 2 state solution problem when they have been dismantled along with the P.A. and of course Israel

Edited February 19 by Bkk Brian

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Yea right, let's just brush aside the war crimes and atrocities Israel has committed since 1947. History began on October 7th 2023.....

This war did start October 7.

The conflict is long standing.
I see you fail mention the long history of Palestinian terrorist violence.

[Brickleberry]

11 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Hamas are still in power "now" and it's about solving the 2 state solution problem when they have been dismantled along with the P.A. and of course Israel

 

Netanyahu and his extremist, right wing government with convicted terrorists is still in power 'now' and it's about solving the two state solution problem when they have been dismantling the Palestinians territory. This government has ruled out a two state solution. Hamas has not ruled out a two state solution. Who is the barrier to peace again?

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

You're avoiding the point.

 

Hamas has actually said it will accept a permanent ceasefire, and has consistently said this since 2017 when it changed its charter.

Palestinians do not want Hamas as their government. They do want a permanent peace deal - based on pre-1967 occupation.

 

Of course the population are in prison camps. They cannot move freely within their own lands, and they cannot move freely between their own lands. There is now a case being put to the ICJ that will attempt to force Israel out of these areas, and finally acknowledge the decades long misery that it has piled on the Palestinian people.

 

No they don't.

What the majority of Palestians want is River to the sea, Israel ended, with the Jews dead and/or gone.

[Brickleberry]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

This war did start October 7.

The conflict is long standing.
I see you fail mention the long history of Palestinian terrorist violence.

 

Wars are fought between armies and countries.

This conflict is long standing, I agree.

I see you fail to mention the long history of Israeli terrorist violence, occupation, rape, murder, biological warfare and forced displacement of almost a million refugees.

 

See how easy it is to switch the narrative? Blaming the occupied and dispossessed for this is ridiculous. They are the ones who should be protected.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Netanyahu and his extremist, right wing government with convicted terrorists is still in power 'now' and it's about solving the two state solution problem when they have been dismantling the Palestinians territory. This government has ruled out a two state solution. Hamas has not ruled out a two state solution. Who is the barrier to peace again?

Netanyahu and his extremist, right wing government with convicted terrorists is still in power 'now'

 

Yea off you go back down the tunnel. Hamas are the terrorist group not the IDF

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

How can there be peace when Israel keeps on stealing more and more land. Keeps the population in prison camps for decades. Teaches their kids to hate Arabs. Breaks internatinal law for decades.

 

And you blame Hamas? Hamas have only been around since 1987. Israel has been committing crimes since 1967 - twenty years prior to their formation. I mean, if we're talking chicken and egg, it is quite easy to see who is in the wrong first. Israel. Hamas did not even exist at the time.

Your narrative is one sided hooey.

There has been a seemingly endless cycle of cause and effect on both sides.

Suicide bombings rampant?

Up goes the wall. 

What country wouldn't?

Wars started by the Arabs that they lose?

Israel justifies holding on to more land for security reasons.

Not exactly stealing.

Normal throughout history when you start wars and LOSE.

Imagine if the Arabs won.

Israel doesn't want to and who can blame them. 

Edited February 19 by Jingthing

[Brickleberry]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

No they don't.

What the majority of Palestians want is River to the sea, Israel ended, with the Jews dead and/or gone.

Not true. Educate yourself. https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/half-palestinians-still-want-all-palestine-most-would-compromise-less

 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Wars are fought between armies and countries.

This conflict is long standing, I agree.

I see you fail to mention the long history of Israeli terrorist violence, occupation, rape, murder, biological warfare and forced displacement of almost a million refugees.

 

See how easy it is to switch the narrative? Blaming the occupied and dispossessed for this is ridiculous. They are the ones who should be protected.

A million huh? Link please.

Do you count people born in the THIRD GENERATION of original refugees?

You fail to mention all the Jewish refugees from all over the middle east. Not that's ethnic cleansing for you. 

[Brickleberry]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

You're narrative is one sided hooey.

There has been cause and effect on both sides.

Suicide bombings rampant?

Up goes the wall. 

What country wouldn't?

Wars started by the Arabs that they lose?

Israel justifies holding on to more land for security reasons.

Not exactly stealing.

Normal throughout history when you start wars and LOSE.

Imagine if the Arabs won.

Israel doesn't want to and who can blame them. 

 

And the very start of this conflict was... the illegal forcible removal of 750,000 Palestinians from their homes and lands.

Suicide bombings rampant - where were these suicide bombings... in the OCCUPIED TERRITORIES!

Wars started by Arabs? Four of the six wars that have been fought in this land were started by Israel, including the 1967 war that led to the occupation of Palestinian territory.

Israel justifies holding on to land.... stop right there. This is illegal according to international law. You can debate with facts, not feelings.

This is the very definition of stealing. I kick you out of your home and raze it to the ground. I then build my own home. Stealing.

Not normal throughout wars when you lose. Taking land by force has been illegal since before Israel was formed. Again, you should argue with facts - not feelings.

If the Arabs had won, they would have reclaimed the land that was stolen from them by European settler colonials.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

Not true. Educate yourself. https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/half-palestinians-still-want-all-palestine-most-would-compromise-less

 

You're hilarious!

Did you even get what that means?!?

The first choice River to the Sea the most support by far.

Add one state choice which everyone knows means the end of Israel and that's a strong consensus for the end of Israel. So what do you think those lovely people intend to do with the Jews there when Israel is gone?

[Brickleberry]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

A million huh? Link please.

Do you count people born in the THIRD GENERATION of original refugees?

You fail to mention all the Jewish refugees from all over the middle east. Not that's ethnic cleansing for you. 

Almost a million. 750,000 + people.

Yes, they have no country to call home because they have are stateless. This is international law, they are refugees and will be until they have citizenship of a country.

And why were they refugees? Because Israel did it to the Palestinians. They would be living happily in their own countries if the Zionist political movement had not done wrong first. Yes, it is ethnic cleansing. Yes, it is wrong. Israel did precisely this when it was formed. How can you say it's OK for Israel to do, but it is not ok for Palestinians - the rightful owners of the land.