Problems with fluorescent lighting

[Sheryl]

25 minutes ago, mudcat said:

I have found this type of meter to check wiring errors and to monitor voltage drops.  I take it around to each outlet to check for live neutral reversals and missing grounds.  There is no way to test fixtures such as lights but it may reveal issues in your wiring.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/gfci-rcd-tester-48v-250v-tester-tester-socket-tester-ht107-i4975561433-s21238702374.html

Interesting. What is N-E?

[Sheryl]

10 minutes ago, stubuzz said:

I had intermittent flickering from the same style lights "Eve" brand. I swapped them for Toshiba Shining and the problem went away. 

Yes I am rapidly concluding there are some really bad quality LEDs out there.

[stubuzz]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

11 minutes ago, stubuzz said:

I had intermittent flickering from the same style lights "Eve" brand. I swapped them for Toshiba Shining and the problem went away. 

Yes I am rapidly concluding there are some really bad quality LEDs out there.

I am also having issues with Philips stick LEDS. Some are giving up in less than a year.

I would change the light for another brand before poking around in the consumer unit yourself. Toshiba or Lamptan would be my advice.

[mudcat]

13 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Interesting. What is N-E?

N is Neutral, E is Earth, another name for Ground

[Sheryl]

6 minutes ago, stubuzz said:

I am also having issues with Philips stick LEDS. Some are giving up in less than a year.

I would change the light for another brand before poking around in the consumer unit yourself. Toshiba or Lamptan would be my advice.

Toshiba or Lamton it will be.

 

And if those keep burning out, I may consider trying to go back to old style fluorescent.

 

I think LEDs do not do well in areas with frequent fluctuations of voltage and/or frequency . Fluorescents much more forgiving in that setting.

[Sheryl]

Just now, mudcat said:

N is Neutral, E is Earth, another name for Ground

Ah so what would it show when there is no Ground? None of my outlets have one

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Just check the most annoying ones 🙂 

 

 

It is not so much a matter of being annoyed - the only one that could cause annoyance is the bedroom and I wear eye shades anyhow to avoid being awoken by the rising sun.

 

The issue is that I worry it might signify something that needs fixing. Though if it does, hasn't done me nay real harm in almost 30 years, knock on wood, other than possibly adding to my electric bill a bit?

[Crossy]

21 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The white wire screws do not light up.

 

The small breakers all do.

 

Including one not in use (no wires coming out), is that an issue or no?

 

That's great, if the one with no wire is turned ON then it will light the neon, no issue.

 

Now check at the bedroom light switch, with the light ON both wires should light the neon.

 

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

avoid being awoken by the rising sun

 

Cripes! We are usually awakened at sparrow-fart by the wat next door getting the monks out of bed.

 

And Madam's creatures wanting to be let out and fed (except the fish, they are very quiet)

[stubuzz]

10 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I think LEDs do not do well in areas with frequent fluctuations of voltage and/or frequency . Fluorescents much more forgiving in that setting.

They also dislike heat!

[norbra]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Do you have a neon-screwdriver (the type you put your finger on the end to check for live)?

 

If so, with the switch pulled off the wall and turned ON (light lit) check if the terminals of the switch light the neon (they should). If they don't and with the switch OFF one terminal is live and the other isn't then you have a switched neutral.

 

Switched neutral is the No.1 cause of lights glowing (or CFLs flashing) when off.

 

 

 

With the switch off you will always get one light with the tester,whether it is on the switch wire (indicating a switched neutral)or the wire from the circuit breaker you cannot know,which is which with the light in circuit.

After disconnecting the light and you don't have any lights at the switch then the switch is indeed in the neutral.

Edited February 24 by norbra

[Crossy]

16 minutes ago, norbra said:

With the switch off you will always get one light with the tester,whether it is on the switch wire (indicating a switched neutral)or the wire from the circuit breaker you cannot know,which is which with the light in circuit.

After disconnecting the light and you don't have any lights at the switch then the switch is indeed in the neutral.

 

Yeah, the important test is the one with the light ON.

But it never hurts to do both, it will confirm that your test gear is functional.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

There is much misinformation regarding LEDs

1) LEDs last a very long time, true and false.

• True: if you under run them you can get many years of useful life
• False: the vast majority of lights run the LEDs as hard as possible, this will cause LEDs to burn out

2) The price of the LEDs have a direct relationship to the lifetime.

• True: the difference is big enough as quality LEDs have a guarantee and the guarantee costs more that improving the quality of the product 
• False: with smaller differences it’s likely marketing 
• True: the components of the driver can be engineered to reduce heat generated, better engineering, better thermal performance both increase driver lifetime 

3) you can’t buy LEDs that have a virtual guarantee of a much longer life

• false: Philips has made the Dubai LEDs because the Emir of the Emirate of Dubai told them to make them. A version of the Dubai LED is available in the U.K. it is more than double the cost of an equivalent high quality bulb and at 545 baht for an 800 lumen bulb it is expensive. I don’t know if it’s as good as the Dubai version 

[xtrnuno41]

The meter isnt a standard measuring meter. It has some features to measure. 

ACV = alternating electric potential (voltage), like from your house.

DCV = direct electric potential as the power from a battery

ONLY DC current and very low in value and then only probably when using output for measuring on transistor.

All the blue scaling has to do with transistor measuring..

And resistance up to 2000 Ohm.

It is because the meter is more made for measuring in electronic components, as transistors.

I would recommend throwing it away. You can easily buy a standard meter for low price.

 

IF you buy a new one with also amps could be measured, dont ever put leads on amp and then go for measuring volts.

You will make a shortcut.

 

Your Stiebel has 3 powerlevels on different electric potential. And in every situation is given then how many (k) Watts is used.

You have 220 Volt then it uses 8 kW, 230 V 8,7 kW, 240 V 9,5 kW.

Thailand 230 Volt, so 8.7 kW. Convert by formula I(A) = 8700 (Watts) / 230 (Volts) = 37,8 A.

If you have fluctuations in net in voltages, so also A will vary and W

If the guy measured, in series (means he must disconnect one wire and put meter in line with the the circuit then) and reading is 28 A, you could have a lower voltage, with less heat. As max it would be 37,8 A on 230 Volt.

The Stiebel regulates the power depending on setpoint. It will cut back power when getting to setpoint.

The Stiebel is doing it proportional. So it maybe already regulated power back and therefor 28 A.

Cant say now. can only say if the Voltage was measured at that same time.

It is all in the formula P (Watt) = U (voltage) X I (A)

 

Flickering, there could be a bad connection, you say there is a relation on using heater.

So is the lamp in the same group or close by which could bring down electric potential (V)? 

The LED should have the right Voltage, going lower could cause flickering.

Some LED are made for using on a dimmer (lowering voltage), but they are specially constructed.

Not all LED can go lower in power just like that and will have a problem.

 

You have a big heater and dont know how big (diameter) the cable might be.

I did a calculation on a cable supplier site.  I had to estimate some things like length (15m), material (was only copper)

and 2 single wires in a tube, your 40 C breaker in box. Calculation showed , you need 10 mm2 wire or AWG 6.

Is your cable to weak and start to sputter on connections?

 

[sometimewoodworker]

10 hours ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Thailand 230 Volt

Slightly interested but wrong information. 
The standard supply voltage in Thailand is more often a hope than a prediction.

 

where you are in relation to the supply is going to govern the usual unloaded voltage for your situation. Where the larger consumers are in relation to you is going to govern the loaded voltage.

 

as an example in our village the unloaded voltage is 225v anything higher is virtually never seen. The loaded voltage (we don’t have any big consumers) can go as far down as 180v or lower. 

[Crossy]

Just to add to the supply voltage confusion.

 

PEA supplies are nominally 220V.

MEA supplies are nominally 230V.

 

Both are +-10% (ish).

 

And that meter looks like a pretty standard el-cheapo analog meter to me. It has some flashy bits, but at only 20,000 ohms/volt there's no way it's going to be useful for modern electronic measurements.

[Johnlkuk]

I'm not qualified in electrickery, but would be interested in what the pros thought of my approach. 

 

For the glowing issue I would start by changing the light switch. 

My reasoning is that if it is not completely isolating when it is in the "off" position, then some "seepage" maybe occurring, hence the glow.

I know in this instance it is the N being switched, but a "leaky" switch would have the same effect whether L or N. 

 

To confirm this, you buy a completely new switch and change it.

Otherwise, you test the existing switch by swapping it with one of the other switches that operate the same kind of new light (that doesn't glow). 

If the switch is leaky it will show in it's new position, and the glowing light (with newly positioned old working switch) will glow no more. 

 

Obviously with care, and with the appropriate breakers switched off. Find them by turning the lights on first, then switching breakers until the lights go out. 

 

If the light fittings can be duff from new, who says the switches can't be nearly duff from years of use?

[sometimewoodworker]

The glowing lights are due to the electronics. It is very easy to design the circuit so that they don’t glow but it saves a little bit to leave off the bits that cut the glow.

 

It may stop the glow by swapping the line and neutral however it is equally possible that that is not enough.

 

The reason for the glow is due to the extremely small current required for the LEDs to light, though I’m not an electronics engineer one usual item to control the glow is a capacitor and discharge resistor.

[Crossy]

The next step, after confirming that the switch really is in the live line rather than the neutral would be to add a mains-rated capacitor between L and N at the fitting. This would divert any leakage current coming via capacitive coupling in the wiring.

 

A 1uF fan run capacitor would be a cheap and readily available part, no need for a resistor.

[terryq]

24 minutes ago, Johnlkuk said:

I'm not qualified in electrickery, but would be interested in what the pros thought of my approach. 

 

For the glowing issue I would start by changing the light switch. 

My reasoning is that if it is not completely isolating when it is in the "off" position, then some "seepage" maybe occurring, hence the glow.

I know in this instance it is the N being switched, but a "leaky" switch would have the same effect whether L or N. 

 

To confirm this, you buy a completely new switch and change it.

Otherwise, you test the existing switch by swapping it with one of the other switches that operate the same kind of new light (that doesn't glow). 

If the switch is leaky it will show in it's new position, and the glowing light (with newly positioned old working switch) will glow no more. 

 

Obviously with care, and with the appropriate breakers switched off. Find them by turning the lights on first, then switching breakers until the lights go out. 

 

If the light fittings can be duff from new, who says the switches can't be nearly duff from years of use?

To check if the switch is leaky just remove the  'on' side wire on the switch, that is the one that goes directly to the light fitting.

 

If the glow disappears then it is the switch . If it remains then it is not the switch.If it is the switch usually caused by ant crud inside

 

 

[Johnlkuk]

4 minutes ago, terryq said:

To check if the switch is leaky just remove the  'on' side wire on the switch, that is the one that goes directly to the light fitting.

 

If the glow disappears then it is the switch . If it remains then it is not the switch.If it is the switch usually caused by ant crud inside

 

 

 

Yes, my post-posting thoughts exactly. 

Just disconnect one side of switch (safely) and see if glow goes 👍

[HauptmannUK]

The LED glowing (known as 'ghosting') when switched off is because LEDs will give off some light with only a very tiny current.   This ghost current is usually due to capacitive coupling in the light switch, or associated wiring, especially if the switch has been wired into the neutral rather than live. You could use a different design of switch or insert a lighting capacitor to bypass the current as mentioned above. Additionally there are LED units available with drive units that are designed to 'ignore' the ghost current. 

Your shower unit should be fed with a supply suitable for up to about 40A. Which means 6mm cable and 2.5mm earth. Obviously if the cable is undersized then you'll get voltage drops when the shower is pulling current and depending on how the house has been wired you could get voltage variations on other circuits.

 

To be honest, from the situation that you've described, I would not mess about with your existing shambolic wiring. It sounds potentially hazardous. I would hire a proper professional electrician (from Bangkok if necessary) and have the house rewired with correct sized cables, earthing, new sockets and switches etc.

 

We have a few properties in Pattaya and also up in Udon, all with LED lights and I can't recall replacing any for at least a few years. I think they are a mix of Philips and Panasonic.

Edited February 25 by HauptmannUK

[Sheryl]

23 hours ago, stubuzz said:

They also dislike heat!

Making Thailand less than the best place for them.....!

 

Yet HomePro et al have decided to carry nothing but.

 

The HomePro near me also carries only junk brands to boot. Just now, finally, they have Lamptan. Otherwise it is a shelf full of no-names and the like. Expensive enough but, in my experience at least, very short-lived. Al least with my wiring and power supply.

[Sheryl]

17 hours ago, xtrnuno41 said:

The meter isnt a standard measuring meter. It has some features to measure. 

ACV = alternating electric potential (voltage), like from your house.

DCV = direct electric potential as the power from a battery

ONLY DC current and very low in value and then only probably when using output for measuring on transistor.

All the blue scaling has to do with transistor measuring..

And resistance up to 2000 Ohm.

It is because the meter is more made for measuring in electronic components, as transistors.

I would recommend throwing it away. You can easily buy a standard meter for low price.

 

IF you buy a new one with also amps could be measured, dont ever put leads on amp and then go for measuring volts.

You will make a shortcut.

 

Your Stiebel has 3 powerlevels on different electric potential. And in every situation is given then how many (k) Watts is used.

You have 220 Volt then it uses 8 kW, 230 V 8,7 kW, 240 V 9,5 kW.

Thailand 230 Volt, so 8.7 kW. Convert by formula I(A) = 8700 (Watts) / 230 (Volts) = 37,8 A.

If you have fluctuations in net in voltages, so also A will vary and W

If the guy measured, in series (means he must disconnect one wire and put meter in line with the the circuit then) and reading is 28 A, you could have a lower voltage, with less heat. As max it would be 37,8 A on 230 Volt.

The Stiebel regulates the power depending on setpoint. It will cut back power when getting to setpoint.

The Stiebel is doing it proportional. So it maybe already regulated power back and therefor 28 A.

Cant say now. can only say if the Voltage was measured at that same time.

It is all in the formula P (Watt) = U (voltage) X I (A)

 

Flickering, there could be a bad connection, you say there is a relation on using heater.

So is the lamp in the same group or close by which could bring down electric potential (V)? 

The LED should have the right Voltage, going lower could cause flickering.

Some LED are made for using on a dimmer (lowering voltage), but they are specially constructed.

Not all LED can go lower in power just like that and will have a problem.

 

You have a big heater and dont know how big (diameter) the cable might be.

I did a calculation on a cable supplier site.  I had to estimate some things like length (15m), material (was only copper)

and 2 single wires in a tube, your 40 C breaker in box. Calculation showed , you need 10 mm2 wire or AWG 6.

Is your cable to weak and start to sputter on connections?

 

No sputtering and the wiring for the heater was all done by Stiebl technician so I think to standard.

 

Flickering stopped when I changed the light bulb so I think just bad bulb. Stores near me sell now only LED and mostly cr*p brands.

[Sheryl]

23 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

That's great, if the one with no wire is turned ON then it will light the neon, no issue.

 

Now check at the bedroom light switch, with the light ON both wires should light the neon.

 

@Crossy to be clear do I need to detach the wires to the switch to test this or can I do bu just testing at the screws?

 

Just did it in bedroom and testing the screws, nothing lights up. (With switch on)

[Crossy]

Just now, Sheryl said:

@Crossy to be clear do I need to detach the wires to the switch to test this or can I do bu just testing at the screws?

 

Just did it in bedroom and testing the screws, nothing lights up. (With switch on)

 

No need to disconnect anything.

 

With the power on (light lit) you should get neon on both wires of the switch.

 

That you are getting nothing suggests that the switch is in the neutral

 

Can you verify that with the switch OFF (light not lit) you do get neon on one end of the switch and not the other.

 

[Sheryl]

11 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

No need to disconnect anything.

 

With the power on (light lit) you should get neon on both wires of the switch.

 

That you are getting nothing suggests that the switch is in the neutral

 

Can you verify that with the switch OFF (light not lit) you do get neon on one end of the switch and not the other.

 

Yes, with switch off I get neon on the top wire and nothing on the bottom.

 

With switch on I get nothing at either wire

 

This is by testing at the screw

[Crossy]

19 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Yes, with switch off I get neon on the top wire and nothing on the bottom.

 

With switch on I get nothing at either wire

 

This is by testing at the screw

 

I think we can conclude your switch is in the neutral

 

Are all your lights on the same breaker? It MIGHT be a reasonably easy fix. Much depends upon how the neutrals have been arranged / borrowed.

 

 

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

I think we can conclude your switch is in the neutral

 

Are all your lights on the same breaker? It MIGHT be a reasonably easy fix. Much depends upon how the neutrals have been arranged / borrowed.

 

 

No it's a big house and the various  lights are on on many different breakers. 

 

So this isn't something that can just be fixed at the switch?  Need to redo the wiring from the breaker on out, or what?

 

And aside from the glowing what orger effects does this have?  Does it increase electric consumption? Pose any dangers?

 

 

 

 

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

No it's a big house and the various  lights are on on many different breakers. 

 

So this isn't something that can just be fixed at the switch?  Need to redo the wiring from the breaker on out, or what?

 

And aside from the glowing what orger effects does this have?  Does it increase electric consumption? Pose any dangers?

 

No this can't be fixed at the switch

 

No increase in energy consumption, no real hazard to the user, but sparkies who are less than careful may get bitten.

 

You could try adding a capacitor at the fitting, just connect L-N. 

 

The 1uF variant of these would do the trick and easy to wire in.

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i4822968210-s20050874277.html