Problems with fluorescent lighting

[Sheryl]

33 minutes ago, norbra said:

Sheryl, You must slow down,the problem is only with the bathroom light,correct?

If that is the case then forget the rest of the house,forget about switchboards.

If you want to look further yourself you could remove the bathroom light switch cover, connect your meter, set to 250 AC and with the light switch in the OFF position, test the 2 wires connected to the switch, the meter should show near full scale deflection,if it does then test again with your heater in action,if the deflection is the same then your heater is not a problem.

If the meter deflection is reduced then you have a supply voltage problem This sould make further diagnosis easier,maybe loose connection at switch or light

 

The flickering was only in one bathroom light and has now been redolved by tossing the (new) bulb and using a different one.

 

Lights glowing all night  after turned off is most of the house and long standing.. Hence the discussion of grounding as orher pisters had said grounding might be the issue.

 

LED lights not lasting is the whole house and a problem  I never had with the old style fluorescents. 

[norbra]

7 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I have no way of knowing where the ground attaches to the neutrsl. But  the lights were glowing before any ground was added. (This was actual one reason I put in the ground...but it did not help). 

I have a couple of appliances with LED indicator lights that have 2 wire power cables ,the LEDs glow long after the power is switched off.

Also get tingles from metallic surfaces

[Sheryl]

42 minutes ago, SpaceKadet said:

The are couple of other factors that might affect this slightly for A/C circuits, but generally if you divide the power rating of the appliance in Watt by the supply voltage, you should get an approximate Ampere figure. So in your case, 8000W/220V=36A.

Mind you, the power rating is the maximum, and would  generally be much lower during normal usage.

36 Amp is exactly what the heater manual says.

 

And 28 Amps was what was recently  measured in actual use.

 

So it seems all good on that front just an ignorant "electrician" who does not know difference between kW and amps....?

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, norbra said:

I have a couple of appliances with LED indicator lights that have 2 wire power cables ,the LEDs glow long after the power is switched off.

Also get tingles from metallic surfaces

Lights glowing after switched off (for the entire night, getting brighter as the night goes on) and  mild shocks (tingles) from metallic surfaces have been the norm since my house was built and long predate switch to LEDs. 

[norbra]

10 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The flickering was only in one bathroom light and has now been redolved by tossing the (new) bulb and using a different one.

 

Lights glowing all night  after turned off is most of the house and long standing.. Hence the discussion of grounding as orher pisters had said grounding might be the issue.

 

LED lights not lasting is the whole house and a problem  I never had with the old style fluorescents. 

It's doubtful that your LEDs can be earthed as is indicated by the connector in the pic you provided.

[norbra]

11 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Lights glowing after switched off (for the entire night, getting brighter as the night goes on) and  mild shocks (tingles) from metallic surfaces have been the norm since my house was built and long predate switch to LEDs. 

The tingles are definitely earthing issues,but difficult to resolve this with 2 wire power cables to appliances 

[Sheryl]

40 minutes ago, norbra said:

It's doubtful that your LEDs can be earthed as is indicated by the connector in the pic you provided.

I think what is earthed is the main power supply and the 2 water heaters, retrofitted in both cases.

 

As the original wiring was done without any grounding all the outlets lack ground wire. 

[Photoguy21]

The meter is not calibrated as it should indicate zero when not connected. The photo shows it showing lower than zero which is just a calibration of the meter.

[retarius]

I must say that I often find the convenience of modern technology is often like a mirage in the desert. Disappointing and banal to say the least, and what is supposed to be better, is worse for the consumer and only  better for the business selling the products. 

I have to say that I have not found this with LED lights. Quite the reverse in fact. I'm not an electrician either, and I am convinced I'll die via electrocution here in Thailand.

Sorry I could not be more help.

[norbra]

28 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I think what is earthed is the main power supply and the 2 water heaters, retrofitted in both cases.

 

As the original wiring was done without any grounding all rhe oulets lack ground wire. 

Do you have air con running while lights are glowing?

If so does shutting it down stop the glow?

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

Thanks for the photo. Looks fine.

 

I was a bit worried that your man had somehow hooked up the LED unit to the existing choke/starter which could lead to "interesting" effects if it wasn't specifically designed to be that way.

 

Now you know how to read your meter did you manage to check the supply voltage?

 

220 v without water (or any major appliance like a/c) on

 

Turning on hot water (so both water pump & water heater in action) 190 v.

 

This is at the fixture, I didn't bother yet with the switch.

 

 

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, norbra said:

Do you have air con running while lights are glowing?

If so does shutting it down stop the glow?

It glows regardless of whether any a/c is on

 

Glow gets stronger as the night goes on

[Sheryl]

18 minutes ago, Photoguy21 said:

The meter is not calibrated as it should indicate zero when not connected. The photo shows it showing lower than zero which is just a calibration of the meter.

Yes I know. I calibrated it before use.  Photo was just to get explanation of where to read and how to use it.

[Crossy]

Just now, Sheryl said:

It glows regardless of whether any a/c is on

 

Glow gets stronger as the night goes on

 

Do you have a neon-screwdriver (the type you put your finger on the end to check for live)?

 

If so, with the switch pulled off the wall and turned ON (light lit) check if the terminals of the switch light the neon (they should). If they don't and with the switch OFF one terminal is live and the other isn't then you have a switched neutral.

 

Switched neutral is the No.1 cause of lights glowing (or CFLs flashing) when off.

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Do you have a neon-screwdriver (the type you put your finger on the end to check for live)?

 

If so, with the switch pulled off the wall and turned ON (light lit) check if the terminals of the switch light the neon (they should). If they don't and with the switch OFF one terminal is live and the other isn't then you have a switched neutral.

 

Switched neutral is the No.1 cause of lights glowing (or CFLs flashing) when off.

 

 

 

Yes, have one and will check but will take time as many, many switches involved.  Maybe tomorrow.

[Crossy]

Just now, Sheryl said:

Yes, have one and will check but will take time as many, many switches involved.  Maybe tomorrow.

 

Just check the most annoying ones 🙂 

 

You should also check that your incoming supply isn't reversed. The bar on the left with all the white wires should NOT light the neon.

[Korat Kiwi]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Do you have a neon-screwdriver (the type you put your finger on the end to check for live)?

 

If so, with the switch pulled off the wall and turned ON (light lit) check if the terminals of the switch light the neon (they should). If they don't and with the switch OFF one terminal is live and the other isn't then you have a switched neutral.

 

Switched neutral is the No.1 cause of lights glowing (or CFLs flashing) when off.

 

 

 

And am I correct Crossy, in explaining that a switched neutral is when some one has wired the neutral wire to the wrong terminal? 

 

I. E. put the N wire onto the P (live) terminal  and

put the P wire onto the N terminal. 

[Crossy]

10 minutes ago, Korat Kiwi said:

And am I correct Crossy, in explaining that a switched neutral is when some one has wired the neutral wire to the wrong terminal? 

 

I. E. put the N wire onto the P (live) terminal  and

put the P wire onto the N terminal. 

 

Not at the fitting. The swap would be at the supply end.

[Sheryl]

27 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Just check the most annoying ones 🙂 

 

You should also check that your incoming supply isn't reversed. The bar on the left with all the white wires should NOT light the neon.

Sorry, where exactly is the "bar on the left with all the white wires"?  And where do I check for current? (with or without power off?)

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, Sheryl said:

As mentioned the manufacturer specs state 8 - 36 amps.

The manufacturer would state no such thing.

One Kilowatt is 1000 watts and at 250v would be 4 amps, power is volts times amps.

The label on the heater says 8Kw at 220V which is the nominal  voltage in Thailand. So 8000 divided by 220 would give 36.36 amps.

Water heaters, unlike cookers, are not energy regulated so current is fixed and continuous. I would doubt very much that the heater has anything to do with the lighting problem.

In recent years lighting has undergone some quite dramatic changes and not necessarily for the better. They may well be more efficient but no saving if you have to change them more regularly.

You may well have voltage fluctutions for some other reason that is causing the problem. May be worth considering changing the fitting to another type of bathroom light.

[Crossy]

Power ON for all neon tests (care please).

 

[Sheryl]

Extraneous to the glowing problem (which well predates LEDs), but possibly germaner to hte LED specific issues, I found this online:

 

"Have you ever wondered why your LED lights are flickering? Or why they aren’t as bright as they used to be? You may have noticed they’re getting unusually hot or not lasting as long as they should. These issues can often be traced back to the LED driver, a crucial component that regulates the power supplied to the light-emitting diode (LED).....

2.1: Flickering or Flashing Lights

Flickering or flashing lights can indicate a problem with the LED driver. This can occur if the driver is not supplying a constant current, causing the LED to fluctuate in brightness. This is not only annoying but can also reduce the lifespan of the LED....

 

...2.3: Short Lifespan of LED Lights

LED lights are known for their long lifespan, but the driver could blame them if they burn out quickly. Overdriving the LEDs, or supplying them with too much current, can cause them to burn out prematurely."

 

https://www.ledyilighting.com/troubleshooting-led-driver-issues-common-problems-and-solutions/

 

And elsewhere, on the subject of what might cause LED drive to misfunction, I found:

 

"2. Poor Quality:

Another common reason for early LED failure is poor quality. When buying LED lights, be sure to purchase from a reputable brand. Cheap knock-offs are more likely to overheat and burn out quickly.

3. Excessive Current:

LED lights are designed to work with a specific amount of current. If too much current is flowing through the light, it can cause the light to overheat and burn out. This is usually caused by a wiring issue or a faulty power supply.

4. Voltage Fluctuations:

Frequent voltage fluctuations can also cause LED lights to overheat and burn out prematurely. This is often the case in areas with unstable power, such as in countries with unreliable electricity."

 

https://midlandauthors.com/what-causes-led-lights-to-burn-out/

 

 

So I am tentatively thinking, as regards the LED issues  that:

 

1 - the flickering was due to a poor quality bulb (despite costing enough and coming form Home Pro. Trye that it wasn't a brand name I recognized).  To avoid recurrence, esides  Lamtan can others suggest specific brands that are good?  Most of what they have seem to be brands I have never heard of and of course the home Pro staff are worse than useless.

 

2 - the rapid burn out of these things, which is happening everywhere in the house, might be due to voltage fluctuations. I am located at the very end of the Ampur grid. When I first moved in, in 1997, I had huge problems with under-voltage, so much  that I had to install a step up transformer for a while. In the course of discussions with Lenovo  tech about this he had me record voltage readings off  the unit and he could not believe how wide the swings were. At that time there was a lot of construction in the area and during the day voltage would dip way down, then at night it would come way up. A few years passed, the construction finished (and maybe the power supply also improved, who knows) and the big drops in power stopped so I eventually ditched the step up transformer (or maybe just did not replace it when it died, I forget which).  Anyhow - point is, that I suspect my location does have wide fluctuations in incoming voltage and especially may have more coming in late at night (when usage in the area is low) and that while this did not trouble the old fashioned fluorescents, the LEDs are sensitive to it and thus burn out.

 

Does this seem plausible? Might explain why some posters say LEDS work fine for them whereas I and a few others have opposite experience.

 

If power fluctuations are the issue then my choices are:

 - live with constant replacement of these %^*$ things (annoying)

- get a whole house voltage stabilizer (costly)

- revert to old fluorescents ( would require getting not just spare bulbs but ballasts,  starters etc online and who knows how long they'll remain available. Already tossed all the old ones)

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

9 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Power ON for all neon tests (care please).

 

Great, got it. So just apply the light-up device to those screws? With the power on? Exactly how to take care in that situation?

[Crossy]

Just now, Sheryl said:

Great, got it. So just apply the light-up device to those screws? With the power on or off?

 

Power ON, finger on the end.

 

You can also check the screws on the small breakers, they should light the neon.

 

[OneMoreFarang]

I think the only good option for you is to find a decent electrician.

I understand that might be difficult. But it will still be easier than learning all you need to know yourself.

And as you know mains voltage can kill you. It's not something you want to play with and find out you made some mistake.

 

To find a decent technician I suggest talk to businesspeople. Maybe there is an international hotel near you. Find out if they have an electrician and ask him if he knows someone he can recommend (probably he will recommend himself).

 

But be prepared for bad news. Many electrical installations in Thailand are absolutely horrible. There is no good and easy way to fix them. The only good way is often rip it out and do it again.

 

Good luck. You will need it.

[indyo]

for lights be sure the switch is on neutral then you should tighten all wires connection especially on main

[Crossy]

8 minutes ago, indyo said:

for lights be sure the switch is on neutral then you should tighten all wires connection especially on main

 

Are you suggesting that the switch should be in the neutral?????????

 

[mudcat]

I have found this type of meter to check wiring errors and to monitor voltage drops.  I take it around to each outlet to check for live neutral reversals and missing grounds.  There is no way to test fixtures such as lights but it may reveal issues in your wiring.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/gfci-rcd-tester-48v-250v-tester-tester-socket-tester-ht107-i4975561433-s21238702374.html

[stubuzz]

I had intermittent flickering from the same style lights "Eve" brand. I swapped them for Toshiba Shining and the problem went away. 

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

 

Power ON, finger on the end.

 

You can also check the screws on the small breakers, they should light the neon.

 

The white wire screws do not light up.

 

The small breakers all do.

 

Including one not in use (no wires coming out), is that an issue or no?