Clever Finnish man beats the system....or does he?

[NorthernRyland]

I was watching house build videos on YouTube and came across this Finnish guy who has built a home in Buriram in the village of his (then) girlfriend and now I see he's gotten married. When I say in the village, I mean he's surrounded by her extended family and even sharing a water main with them. The very idea makes me cringe but very well.

 

This is interesting to me because earlier before they were married he an acquired a usufruct on the new property and now since getting married I assume he's signed a prenup with the 25 year old Thai girl.

 

Is the Finnish man very clever and beaten the system of foreign land ownership in Thailand or is he trying to beat the legal system by following the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law? It seems everything is well and legal but personally I don't trust Thailand (or Thai people in general) to strictly adhere to laws in the same way Europeans do. My guess is that if there is a divorce the property will still be contested despite all the documents. I have no evidence for this but it just "feels" that way given how easy it was for him to effectively skirt the law. For example it could be left to the judges discretion and if he seems this as a clever way to circumvent the law.

 

 

[simon43]

I don't think he is doing anything new, and AFAIK pre-nups are not legal in Thailand.

 

Look, you can create any type of usufruct or contract if it makes you feel better.  But the bottom line is that if he falls out with his wife (or vice-versa), no amount of legal paperwork will protect your body if the 'ban nork' in-laws want to make things difficult for you...

 

Not related to a Thai wife etc, but years ago, I was forced off my land/guesthouse in Phuket by the local police who were working with the local yaba dealers.  Life got 'dangerous' for me and I had no choice but to make a speedy exit 🙂

 

Sometimes, it simply ain't worth the trouble and I like my kneecaps.... I hope this Finnish guy doesn't assume that he's legally OK if his relationship goes south...

[worgeordie]

Time will tell ...

 

regards Worgeordie

[freeworld]

41 minutes ago, simon43 said:

I don't think he is doing anything new, and AFAIK pre-nups are not legal in Thailand.

 

Look, you can create any type of usufruct or contract if it makes you feel better.  But the bottom line is that if he falls out with his wife (or vice-versa), no amount of legal paperwork will protect your body if the 'ban nork' in-laws want to make things difficult for you...

 

Not related to a Thai wife etc, but years ago, I was forced off my land/guesthouse in Phuket by the local police who were working with the local yaba dealers.  Life got 'dangerous' for me and I had no choice but to make a speedy exit 🙂

 

Sometimes, it simply ain't worth the trouble and I like my kneecaps.... I hope this Finnish guy doesn't assume that he's legally OK if his relationship goes south...

Prenups are part of the Civil code in Thailand

 

"Prenuptial agreements in Thailand, as a pre-marriage contract, are specifically governed by sections 1465 to 1469 of the Thailand Civil Code"

[ChaiyaTH]

To legally have sorted it means nothing knowing he is living right next to the family in law.
 

They would make the place a living nightmare nobody buys until they can get it if they are done with him.

[n00dle]

48 minutes ago, simon43 said:

I don't think he is doing anything new, and AFAIK pre-nups are not legal in Thailand.

prenups are legal in Thailand, in most cases, however, they are pointless in a contested divorce where the court determines the enforceability of such clauses and compliance with Thai laws.

 

In short, Thailand prenups are only valid when both parties are in agreement.

[Goat]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

personally I don't trust Thailand (or Thai people in general) to strictly adhere to laws in the same way Europeans do

Yeah those honest Europeans. 

No need for jails or even police in Europe.

Very trustworthy people the Europeans.

 

And of course in Europe the divorced women just pack their bags and leave without expecting any assets.

 

Can not trust those sneaky Thais.

[NorthernRyland]

29 minutes ago, n00dle said:

prenups are legal in Thailand, in most cases, however, they are pointless in a contested divorce where the court determines the enforceability of such clauses and compliance with Thai laws.

 

 

Ok so the prenup part is something I ASSUMED because he took this sneaky route of building the house and getting the usufruct BEFORE he was married. He didn't say anything about the prenup but I have to assume he would do that too because it seems like what he's doing is being clever with the law and getting to own land in Thailand without a Thai national being involved. This is the crux of the issue and what I'm skeptical of.

[NorthernRyland]

13 minutes ago, Goat said:

Yeah those honest Europeans. 

No need for jails or even police in Europe.

Very trustworthy people the Europeans.

 

 

You seriously want to go to bat for the Thai's and their adherence to laws and legal culture? Seriously?

[Goat]

3 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

You seriously want to go to bat for the Thai's and their adherence to laws and legal culture? Seriously?

Maybe if you learned the language you would not be so paranoid.

 

Maybe teerak told you the farang can not to prenups? Usrfructs? 

Dont trust her.

[n00dle]

7 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

Ok so the prenup part is something I ASSUMED because he took this sneaky route of building the house and getting the usufruct BEFORE he was married. He didn't say anything about the prenup but I have to assume he would do that too because it seems like what he's doing is being clever with the law and getting to own land in Thailand without a Thai national being involved. This is the crux of the issue and what I'm skeptical of.

 

usufructs are a very common strategy, but as someone has pointed out, building deep in family territory is just plain stupid as the family can make your life a living hell no matter how many documents you can wave.

[FritsSikkink]

28 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

Ok so the prenup part is something I ASSUMED because he took this sneaky route of building the house and getting the usufruct BEFORE he was married. He didn't say anything about the prenup but I have to assume he would do that too because it seems like what he's doing is being clever with the law and getting to own land in Thailand without a Thai national being involved. This is the crux of the issue and what I'm skeptical of.

A usefruct doesn't mean you own the land, you can use it.

[NorthernRyland]

31 minutes ago, Goat said:

Maybe if you learned the language you would not be so paranoid.

 

No idea what you're even talking about. Laws in Thailand are often seen as a mere suggestion and can be gotten around. That's my observation at least.

[NorthernRyland]

11 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

A usefruct doesn't mean you own the land, you can use it.

Not sure what other documents he signed but he was very sure of himself and his legal work. I think, he thinks if he gets divorced he can own 100% of the land and sell it at his leisure. If you can't sell the land and you can only inhabit it it's even more worthless because then you're stuck with her family in some little soi.

[JeffersLos]

People have been getting usufructs for years. Even if the land and house is sold or transferred he still has the legal right to not allow the new owners in. Not that it can be legally sold or transferred or used as collateral without him signing off in person. The family might be able to conjure up some illegal deal with fake signatures etc with the land office workers, but not easy.

 

Being surrounded by Thai family is not the ideal situation. 

 

I would guess that in a divorce or separation, he would agree to have his name and usufruct removed for a fraction of what he paid, so the family can have it fully to themselves without having to kill him, beat him, or illegally work in cahoots with the land office people to illegally alter the land title. 

[NorthernRyland]

Ok here is that video I saw about the paper work. I'm very skeptical you can get around Thai laws this easily even if the lawyer says it's legit. Good luck to the guy though.

 

 

[simon43]

A usufruct simply allows you to 'use' the land, not own it.  If he gets divorced, he still doesn't own the land.

 

I just watched the video. Nothing new at all - he has a usufruct to use the land.  But that means nothing if her brother and friends come along with knifes and 'ask' him to leave the land.

Edited April 23 by simon43

[dick turpin]

Usufruct+Pre-nup.......all bodes well for a trusting marriage.

[it is what it is]

but personally I don't trust Thailand (or Thai people in general) to strictly adhere to laws in the same way Europeans do.

 

this criminal free paradise you refer to certainly does not extend to the whole of europe, in fact i can't think of any criminal free country in europe, though i haven't been to finland. or, is this just an excuse to thai bash, which is surprising given you seem to have chosen to live here.

[JeffersLos]

2 minutes ago, simon43 said:

A usufruct simply allows you to 'use' the land, not own it.  If he gets divorced, he still doesn't own the land.

 

He has full control of the land until he dies, no matter who owns it, whether he is married or divorced means nothing. He is legally due any rent from it, and it cannot be sold without him signing off on it, and even after being sold he has full control of it, not any new owner. 

[NorthernRyland]

5 minutes ago, JeffersLos said:

I would guess that in a divorce or separation, he would agree to have his name and usufruct removed for a fraction of what he paid, so the family can have it fully to themselves without having to kill him, beat him, or illegally work in cahoots with the land office people to illegally alter the land title. 

 

The idea is he gets to sell the house, keep 100% of the profit then have his name removed, nothing the Thai national can do right? That feels like ownership to me and why I'm skeptical if a judge would see it any different.

[rumak]

2 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

 

1 minute ago, JeffersLos said:

 

He has full control of the land until he dies, no matter who owns it, whether he is married or divorced means nothing. He is legally due any rent from it, and it cannot be sold without him signing off on it, and even after being sold he has full control of it, not any new owner. 

not really correct .    the property ( and house if it has one)  is legally his to USE . ( and in effect, if not reality, control who lives there and what can be done on the property ) .   and YES, it can not be sold without him signing the agreement at land office to REMOVE the usufruct .    HE CAN NOT SELL THE PROPERTY  as he is not the owner .    period

as for the other point ..... do not think someone can buy the property until his usufruct is removed ( and who would anyway ) .    But MY EXPERIENCE  here in CM  , and also in Lamphun province,  is the head of land office  immediately says that FIRST  the usufruct must be rescinded by the person before any sale can take place .

What lawyers can or can not do ..... who knows ??   Money changing hands unseen can accomplish much .  

[JeffersLos]

4 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

The idea is he gets to sell the house, keep 100% of the profit then have his name removed, nothing the Thai national can do right?

 

If he doesn't agree to have his name removed, no one will buy it, it is worthless to the Thai owners both present and future. He cannot sell it without consent. Without his consent to be removed, it is useless to the current owner. 2 edged sword. 

 

The current Thai on the land title will need to agree to transfer it to another, whether 100%, 50%, 10%, 1% or 0% of the proceeds goes to him is between himself and that Thai has nothing to do with the land office or the person buying it.

[In Full Agreement]

1 hour ago, ChaiyaTH said:

knowing he is living right next to the family in law.
 

 

 

That's his first of many mistakes.

 

 

[JeffersLos]

1 minute ago, rumak said:

the property ( and house if it has one)  is legally his to USE . ( and in effect, if not reality, control who lives there and what can be done on the property ) .   and YES, it can not be sold without him signing the agreement at land office to REMOVE the usufruct . 

 

It is his to use AND control. Even the Thai on the title deed cannot stay there without him agreeing to it. It is within his legal right to kick the Thai on the title deed out if he so wishes.

 

If it is ever rented, he is immediately legally entitled to all rents. 

 

With the exception of being in control of selling it, the Thai on the title deeds needs to agree to sell it (note that it cannot be sold without his legal consent), it is his in every conceivable legal way until he dies.

[rumak]

5 minutes ago, JeffersLos said:

 

It is his to use AND control. Even the Thai on the title deed cannot stay there without him agreeing to it. It is within his legal right to kick the Thai on the title deed out if he so wishes.

 

If it is ever rented, he is immediately legally entitled to all rents. 

 

With the exception of being in control of selling it, the Thai on the title deeds needs to agree to sell it (note that it cannot be sold without his legal consent), it is his in every conceivable legal way until he dies.

i don't believe you can kick your Thai wife out ....legally .   Just as the wife can not kick her husband out if a legal marriage registered in Thailand .

 

Maybe best NOT to get married,  but get a usufruct (for life)  on the title deed (if allowed by the Land office)  .     uhhhhh  like i have

but i have no illusions about what difficulties there would be if i wanted to kick the "owner" of the property off the land   🙂

Edited April 23 by rumak

[oxo1947]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

don't think he is doing anything new, and AFAIK pre-nups are not legal in Thailand.

Prenups have been in Thailand for many many years--and are probably (if done properly ) the best way to protect assets. They have been around for that long that you dont even have to go to a lawyer now--just buy the package from law firms that specialize in them.   https://www.thailandlawonline.com/prenuptial-contract-th-en/prenuptial-contract

 

 

[rumak]

12 minutes ago, JeffersLos said:

 

"

 

12 minutes ago, JeffersLos said:

 

It is his to use AND control. Even the Thai on the title deed cannot stay there without him agreeing to it. It is within his legal right to kick the Thai on the title deed out if he so wishes.

 

If it is ever rented, he is immediately legally entitled to all rents. 

 

With the exception of being in control of selling it, the Thai on the title deeds needs to agree to sell it (note that it cannot be sold without his legal consent), it is his in every conceivable legal way until he dies.

With the exception of being in control of selling it........

 

or, as i have stated,  "kicking"  your legal wife/ husband out without a legal judgement .

Edited April 23 by rumak

[rumak]

by the way..... my gf has a lovely house here in Doisaket that she wants to sell .

i will gladly sign release of usufruct for any of you rich guys . 

(only bad air a few months a year )   🙂

[NorthernRyland]

37 minutes ago, it is what it is said:

this criminal free paradise you refer to certainly does not extend to the whole of europe, in fact i can't think of any criminal free country in europe, though i haven't been to finland. or, is this just an excuse to thai bash, which is surprising given you seem to have chosen to live here.

I'm giving the wrong impression here. I don't mean Europeans aren't criminal, I simply observe a strong trust in laws within the Europeans (I mean American, Canadian etc... too) when compare to the Thai people.

 

In the mind of the Finnish guy Jay he has a piece of paper which gives him a sense of security because he believes the system will protect him. Thai people in my observation don't have this same trust because they know there is a corruption in the officials and the paper is only as good the person willing to enforce it, which may never happen.

 

I've never gone through the legal system in Thailand but I don't trust it because I see the Thai people themselves don't trust their authorities. That's my only point.