Poll - New Tax Rule, What Will YOU Do?

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

but isn't the amount of tax paid in Thailand dependent on the amount paid in the US? Given that I don't see how one can apply towards the other.

Sort of but not really!

 

The TRD has its own scale of taxation on different items which will be different from the way other countries tax them, one may tax a particular type of income at say 10% whilst another country may tax the same income at 20%. The DTA specifies who gets to tax the income first and whether or not the other country can tax it at all. The second country may may tax that income at a higher or lower rate, depending on what the DTA says. That may result in a small amount of Thai tax to pay, no Thai tax to pay or a Thai tax credit being issued against the tax already paid over seas.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Dioj said:

Thank you. I'm still a bit confused though why it only says 30,000 Baht as the personal allowance on the RD website link I provided?

I believe you're looking at an out of date version, the Personal Allowance was increased around the time of covid as I recall. The ENglish versions of the TRD Tax Code are notoriously inaccurate and outdated.

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2023-24.pdf

[Dioj]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

I believe you're looking at an out of date version, the Personal Allowance was increased around the time of covid as I recall. The ENglish versions of the TRD Tax Code are notoriously inaccurate and outdated.

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2023-24.pdf

Thank you. Understood. Apparently the link I provided was last updated in 2020 it says. A pity they don't keep that information more up to date. 

[Middle Aged Grouch]

1 hour ago, SingAPorn said:

The point is of course how the new tax rule will affect most of the foreigners.

 

But the main point of consideration is that wheather one is concerned or not, one may have to deal with the bureaucracy any how to file some absurd new document, wheather one is taxed or not

 

That's where the problem could arise as we all see how depending on the clerk who gets the file, he or she can freely say that this or this document is "no good" not valid etc. When one sees the absurdity with immigration or other agencies who invent their rules daily, or often just cannot understand the documents submitted, the worst can be unfortunately expected.

 

Just see how absurdly they handle the LTR visa for exemple as often they ask for extra documents because they just cannot understand the documents submitted despite all the translations etc in english that they ask. Unless of course extra documents are just asked to make a fuss and create trouble for those awful farangs who are full of money that does create envy and jealousy with the clerks behind their counters or desks.

 

As mentioned, if you can, sell out and leave to another Asian country. No point once retired to be harassed as such by the bureaucracy or immigration in Thailand. Sad as it is a lovely country with some lovely people all over. Times change so leave.

I think that the inefficient handling is more from the One stop LTR center that has no idea often and depending on which clerk is handling your case, new fuss is made on each document you have already uploaded.  Each different clerk who handles the issue delays the submissions depending on the mood of the day. The government agencies hopefully are less fussy ? Well at the end of the day it's to their loss as people who own property in Thailand will just stay for shorter time and spend less money, mainly the retirees.

[Sigmund]

I would sell my house on leasehold now and leave to another country like Vietnam, Indonesia, Phillipines or anyplace else. Because once the tax rules get more clear, depending on the outcome, many may rush to sell their condos, or houses on leasehold. This can crash prices obvisouly. Rather do it now, sell when the market is still what it is, rather then wait and risk a collapse if many choose to leave Thailand at the time. Plus who wants to continue to deal with all the hassle from immigration etc that gets bad to worse for foreigners daily.

[Presnock]

8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Let's find out who is planning to do what:

Well I changed to a BOI LTR, know the current DTA with the US and my govt pension so unless it becomes a regulation that as a tax resident we MUST obtain a TIN then I will do nothing but if necessary, I will get a tax number.. I will not have any tax on remitted funds unless they get rid of the DTA and the LTR as it stands now.  I like it here and plan to stay but I have moved from country to country more than 15 times in my life so if it becomes necessary, I will leave but truly don't think that this issue will affect that many of us ex-pats when all is said and done and then just like the drug issue - the govt could come out with all kinds of new regulations and then cancel all of them.

[JBChiangRai]

I do have a TIN number, but I haven’t used it in 12 years.

 

It’s not my intention to resurrect that, or to start filing tax returns, but I will be a little bit circumspect about how I bring money into the country.

 

 The biggest issue for me is how I sell my bitcoin without incurring tax liability here 

[Chivas]

Its got to be a wait and see scenario

 

I suspect at some point the Thais will realise that its unworkable in practice but we'll see

[JohnnyBD]

I will happily stay, and only remit non-assessable income. In 2025, when I need to remit big money to pay for condo and replenish THB accts, i will stay less than 180 days. I pay taxes on all my income in home country, so I'm not getting by tax-free. I will not file tax return in Thailand. 

[mancub]

7 minutes ago, Chivas said:

Its got to be a wait and see scenario

 

I suspect at some point the Thais will realise that its unworkable in practice but we'll see

It's obviously workable for those already encompassed and participating in the process, but as far as the established pensioner here. can't currently see how it can be effectively enforced. How are these people to be contacted to advise them of the new obligations....Not everyone is an avid reader of AN and it's hard to assume responsibility for something you're unaware of.

 

 

[Negita43]

Being quite old my plan (made early last year) was to move all my money assets to Thailand so my Thai partner could access my money easily when I "pop off".

This new interpretation (for want of a better word) put the kibosh on that. So this year I will not be in the country long enough to be a tax resident and I will transfer all my money here this year (both income, what I had before Dec 31st and proceeds of the sale of my flat - after that I will be happy to pay tax on my meagre UK pension should it reach the required threshold.

[Sheryl]

Since the only money I remit to Thailand is US Social Security, I have no need to change anything.

[mudcat]

I need to do nothing as I have a LTR-WP visa and my income comes from a government pension and Social Security.  My investment assets are mostly in my Roth IRA which I do not touch.

 

The reason Roth IRAs aren't discussed in the US-Thai tax convention is they coincidentally both took affect in January 1998. 

 

While not applicable for qualified withdrawals (>59 1/2), the 'ordering' the IRS uses for non-qualified withdrawals are contributions, conversions, and only lastly earnings, with contributions always exempt and conversions <5 years taking a 10% penalty and earnings fully taxable should you choose to draw it down or close the account 

[john donson]

taxation without representation

 

if they offer at least RESIDENCY ... YES

 

 

rich thais will gift the money they want to send back to a gardener or family member and avoid paying any tax as usual...

 

russian and chinese long stayers will be able to buy condo's without penalty

 

and the rest of us who are here long term...

 

well I surely do not want to lose 25-35% of my savings for the 'pleasure' to own a condo...

 

 

[OJAS]

9 hours ago, connda said:

So basically Mike - I don't trust Thailand or the intentions of their Finance Ministry.  Everything I see here points to their  intention to side-step their DTAs with other countries in order to increase their tax base by taxing foreign income they have no right to tax.

If it were ever to come to Thailand unilaterally ripping up its DTA's with other countries then I think that we would have every right to expect international retaliatory action to swiftly follow, in the form of travel bans imposed on those responsible in the Thai government for those outrageous decisions and the immediate freezing of all Thai hiso assets held abroad. In a not too dissimilar manner as to how Putin and various others in the Russian government along with a number of Russian oligarchs have been sanctioned internationally in the light of the Ukraine conflict.

 

That all said, though, whether individual Western governments in particular would, however, be prepared in practice to effectively reclassify Thailand as a pariah state along the likes of China, Russia, Iran and North Korea does sound highly improbable in practice.

[Prubangboy]

I voted happy to pay my fair share. I use the roads and (so-so) water system, I should contribute something.

 

In the meantime, I assist Myanmar refugees and tip well.

 

But with what I pay in the US and what I remit, I'm unlikely to pay a dime, so Khao Soi Noodles all around for the Myanmar Refugees via The Free Bird Cafe in Chiang Mai.

 

My landlord is a fellow New Yorker, so I'll be paying my rent to him in the states.

[connda]

4 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

Nobody is saying they are going to tax you even after paying taxes in the US. Are you out of your mind? But you have to prove it by filing a tax return, that you are exempt and get a tax credit for the taxes you have already paid.

Unfortunately if you read the US-Thai Dual-Tax Treaty it's based on how residency is interpreted.  Well, except for Social Security which is only taxable by the US <period>.  I wrote about it and included the DTA earlier in this thread.  There are cases when Thailand gets first shot at taxing your US earned pension, as suckola as that may be.

The easier method to bypass this madness is, imho, not to transfer any more than you can claim exemptions for.  Bottom line - don't be a target.

[connda]

40 minutes ago, Prubangboy said:

I voted happy to pay my fair share. I use the roads and (so-so) water system, I should contribute something.

But you already do.  You pay 7% VAT on all sales and if you have a saving account the Thai government automatically extracts 15% of your earned interest.  So - you already are paying taxes in Thailand.  You may not pay "income taxes" but you do pay taxes. 

[Dioj]

TBH, these tightening of the tax laws will probably affect Thais with overseas businesses and income (who are evading Thai taxes right now) far more than it will affect most of the retired foreigners living in Thailand.
 

We are certainly at least talking about a much larger group of people when considering the effects of these new laws on the local population.
 

And the foreigners that get caught up in the web, and have to deal with the RD, and have double taxation treaty issues to report will likely end up being more administrative headache and hassle than it’s worth for the RD, thus hopefully some tweaks to exclude certain types of foreign income for foreigners will eventually be introduced. But let’s see. 

[Mike Lister]

The poll is now closed and the results are in.

 

Less than 6% are leaving because of the new tax rule. A further 8% will spend less than 180 days here, although we don't know for certain that's what they would have done any way and that they weren't previously year round residents. That 6% compares very favorably to back in December when it seemed as though everyone was going to leave, so I guess the shock is wearing off.

 

40% remain undecided and will wait and see, fair enough!

 

A further 40% (ish) are OK with filing a return, paying tax and dealing with whatever happens.

 

My take on this is that the more people who understand what's involved and how they personally are affected, the less excited they become and the more rationally they view things. (This is very similar to the way I saw things in December when we started this, when large numbers of older members were extremely worried if not scared. For those of you who are sick of seeing tax threads, they are actually helping people so a little patience may be appropriate).

 

Ultimately, people seem to be saying, this is no big deal. 

 

My other take on this is that foreigners will remit less funds into Thailand and if nothing else, be more cautious with their remittances. This will be a negative for the economy, which hopefully/presumably will be more than offset by the flow of repatriated overseas funds by residents and the tax thereon.

 

We won't mention the 4% who think the new rule will be cancelled...."hope springs eternal". 

 

Thanks for playing.

 

 

[Captain Monday]

Thailand is an escape valve or plan B for me now. I never spent near 180 days in Thailand except 2021 anyway. Because of a  “flu”

Captain Monday - “Constant International Travel”

[Robert Paulson]

I’ll do nothing and if I ever get a bill I’ll ignore it,

thx for coming to my Ted talk on Thai taxes 

[Robert Paulson]

What’s gonna happen more and more in the future is the wise passport bros will have a few spots and a few birds, that way they can get out of being a tax resident of any country in particular. You heard it here first

[Robert Paulson]

Just now, Robert Paulson said:

What’s gonna happen more and more in the future is the wise passport bros will have a few spots and a few birds, that way they can get out of being a tax resident of any country in particular. You heard it here first

And guess what this solution does for those in Thailand? Makes it a lot easier with a visa like a non o multiple as you’re automatically flying in and out

[Andycoops]

I have already obtained a TIN and will comply with the last 2 points if I have to.

[CartagenaWarlock]

26 minutes ago, Captain Monday said:

Thailand is an escape valve or plan B for me now. I never spent near 180 days in Thailand except 2021 anyway. Because of a  “flu”

Captain Monday - “Constant International Travel”

I'm in the same boat. I spent one full year in 2021 and 9 months in 2022 due to COVID. I got bored and ran to the US and Portugal. I usually spend 6 months in Thailand and was thinking of spending 9 months as I cross 60, but that plan is now on hold. I will wait till I get my SS. For now, I will continue with my 6-month stay. 

[CygnusX1]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

A further 8% will spend less than 180 days here, although we don't know for certain that's what they would have done any way and that they weren't previously year round residents.

I’m in that category, but was too late to vote. Will be spending around 175 days of each year in Thailand instead of planned 200 or so. More of my money to be spent in Europe and Australia, less in Thailand.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, CygnusX1 said:

I’m in that category, but was too late to vote. Will be spending around 175 days of each year in Thailand instead of planned 200 or so. More of my money to be spent in Europe and Australia, less in Thailand.

Yours is more an adjustment of your travel plans than a change to your living arrangements'. In trying to assess the impact of the new rule I'm mainly looking at year round residents who have called Thailand home for some time.

[Srikcir]

21 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Either your income is excluded by treaty of the tax already paid in the US will offset any Thai tax liability

Isn't the offset limited to no more than your US tax liability?  For example if your Thailand tax bracket exceeds your US tax bracket, then you may have a Thai tax liability in excess to your US tax liability. There are many US tax provisions that can substantially reduce one's (typically wealthy person) US tax liabilities. But if Thailand does not match those tax advantages, one could fall into a higher Thailand tax bracket than a US tax bracket - thus, causing (albeit small) an additional Thailand income tax that would not violate the tax treaty?

[CygnusX1]

21 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yours is more an adjustment of your travel plans than a change to your living arrangements'. In trying to assess the impact of the new rule I'm mainly looking at year round residents who have called Thailand home for some time.

Well, I’ve owned a condo in Thailand for 5 years, together with a 20 year visa, and with a formerly planned 200 days in Thailand and 80 or so days in each of Europe and Australia, Thailand was going to be effectively my home more than anywhere else.