New Tax Rules for Expats in Thailand Spark Concern

[Baba Naba]

I live only on a disability pension and SS. I paid no taxes in the USA and I'll be damned if i pay it here...

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Gknrd said:

Summary and conclusion is it is a huge rip off for the average US and European retiree.  

 Interesting. Just from the US perspective, can you show why -- under the new Thai guidance -- your total tax bill, between the two countries, will be anything more than you're now paying to the US? From all I can see -- and because of the US saving clause, whereby your total worldwide income is taxable by the US, regardless of treaty language -- all those new taxes you'll be paying to Thailand will be acceptable as a credit against your US tax on same income. Thus, more tax income for Thailand, less for the US. But for you, no difference in out of pocket total tax payments.

[redwood1]

11 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 Interesting. Just from the US perspective, can you show why -- under the new Thai guidance -- your total tax bill, between the two countries, will be anything more than you're now paying to the US? From all I can see -- and because of the US saving clause, whereby your total worldwide income is taxable by the US, regardless of treaty language -- all those new taxes you'll be paying to Thailand will be acceptable as a credit against your US tax on same income. Thus, more tax income for Thailand, less for the US. But for you, no difference in out of pocket total tax payments.

 

You pay your USA taxes first.....And any other taxes 2nd.....Thats the way it works...USA is always first..

[JimGant]

11 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

You pay your USA taxes first.....And any other taxes 2nd.....Thats the way it works...USA is always first..

Where'd you get that from? And who cares -- if you filed your US taxes -- before you determined the tax credit you'd get from your Thai tax return -- you could always file an amended return. But that would never be necessary -- if you live in Thailand, your US tax return isn't due until June 15th; Thai tax return, several months earlier. Thus, you certainly know the credit to take. Heck, even if you file your US return the end of Feb, you'll know -- by the back of a napkin -- the upcoming Thai taxes, which you flip to your US tax return; no Thai official paperwork required to be attached.

[redwood1]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Where'd you get that from? And who cares -- if you filed your US taxes -- before you determined the tax credit you'd get from your Thai tax return -- you could always file an amended return. But that would never be necessary -- if you live in Thailand, your US tax return isn't due until June 15th; Thai tax return, several months earlier. Thus, you certainly know the credit to take. Heck, even if you file your US return the end of Feb, you'll know -- by the back of a napkin -- the upcoming Thai taxes, which you flip to your US tax return; no Thai official paperwork required to be attached.

 

Point being USA taxes will offset Thai taxes not the other way around...I doubt the IRS would take to kindly to some claimed Thai tax credit....Messing around with the IRS is not recommended.. Dont be stupid everyone should pay USA taxes in full before anyone else...

[JimGant]

3 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Point being USA taxes will offset Thai taxes not the other way around...I doubt the IRS would take to kindly to some claimed Thai tax credit..

Wow, did you get a wrong number. The DTA's elimination of double taxation is highly dependent on being able to take a tax credit for one country's taxes against the other treaty country's taxes. A key example is US private pensions and IRAs, which the DTA gives primary taxation rights to Thailand. As such, those taxes paid to Thailand on this US income is allowed as a credit against US taxes. And, yes, some form filing is required to accommodate this (like Form 8833). But, this certainly shows it ain't a one way street -- Thailand, in many situations, gets to keep all the collected taxes -- and the US has to absorb a tax credit against such.

[redwood1]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Wow, did you get a wrong number. The DTA's elimination of double taxation is highly dependent on being able to take a tax credit for one country's taxes against the other treaty country's taxes. A key example is US private pensions and IRAs, which the DTA gives primary taxation rights to Thailand. As such, those taxes paid to Thailand on this US income is allowed as a credit against US taxes. And, yes, some form filing is required to accommodate this (like Form 8833). But, this certainly shows it ain't a one way street -- Thailand, in many situations, gets to keep all the collected taxes -- and the US has to absorb a tax credit against such.

 

Ok...Good luck....Its not what I will risking...Ever...

[BTB1977]

Don't mind paying my taxes.  As long as I get free health care like all tax paying thais 

[Gknrd]

5 hours ago, JimGant said:

 Interesting. Just from the US perspective, can you show why -- under the new Thai guidance -- your total tax bill, between the two countries, will be anything more than you're now paying to the US? From all I can see -- and because of the US saving clause, whereby your total worldwide income is taxable by the US, regardless of treaty language -- all those new taxes you'll be paying to Thailand will be acceptable as a credit against your US tax on same income. Thus, more tax income for Thailand, less for the US. But for you, no difference in out of pocket total tax payments.

This is the way I handle my taxes in the US. I make my money from dividends and capital gains.

I set it up so I just fall under the taxable guideline in the US.  That includes my capital gains I take when I want something..

Before I stopped working I paid all debts, bought a new car, set up and try to stay under the threshold of the US tax limit. I don't always succeed but I try. 

Now you read the tax laws for Thailand. Which I assume you know nothing about, and are just trolling at this point.

 

 

Edited June 1 by Gknrd

[redwood1]

8 hours ago, BTB1977 said:

Don't mind paying my taxes.  As long as I get free health care like all tax paying thais 

 

Well your almost correct.....The tax paying Thais and farangs with a work permit who also pay taxes can pay into a National health care system.....But the payments are very cheap, some thing like 500 baht a month?

 

So yes its more or less free....

 

And this is not that 30 baht heath care rubbish....This is first class top of the line heath care.... (Example) Hip, knee replacements at no cost to the insured....

 

And yes they should give this heath care to all the new tax paying farang....

 

But farangs are Thai hospitals bread and butter and farangs getting free health care would bankrupt them....

 

So the hospitals absolutely do not want any new farang tax payers getting one baht in free heath care...

 

The governments new tax plan seems to leave out farangs getting any benefits whats so ever......And I do mean 100% zero benefits.....Not even a happy meal from McDonalds.....Nope.....1000% zero benefits....

 

Hey anyone out there who is OK with paying out their hard earned money for nothing please send me your money I will give you nothing back too....And thank you very much...

 

This tax plan is so bad its DOA.....Its  Never going to fly...

 

[Mike Lister]

9 hours ago, BTB1977 said:

Don't mind paying my taxes.  As long as I get free health care like all tax paying thais 

 

3 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

Well your almost correct.....The tax paying Thais and farangs with a work permit who also pay taxes can pay into a National health care system.....But the payments are very cheap, some thing like 500 baht a month?

 

So yes its more or less free....

 

And this is not that 30 baht heath care rubbish....This is first class top of the line heath care.... (Example) Hip, knee replacements at no cost to the insured....

 

And yes they should give this heath care to all the new tax paying farang....

 

But farangs are Thai hospitals bread and butter and farangs getting free health care would bankrupt them....

 

So the hospitals absolutely do not want any new farang tax payers getting one baht in free heath care...

 

The governments new tax plan seems to leave out farangs getting any benefits whats so ever......And I do mean 100% zero benefits.....Not even a happy meal from McDonalds.....Nope.....1000% zero benefits....

 

Hey anyone out there who is OK with paying out their hard earned money for nothing please send me your money I will give you nothing back too....And thank you very much...

 

This tax plan is so bad its DOA.....Its  Never going to fly...

 

Eligibility for decent quality, "almost free", health care requires membership of the social security program, which costs around 500 baht per month, most expats are unlikely to want to use the 30 baht scheme. Membership of the social security program requires you to have been employed in Thailand, not necessarily to have paid taxes. Indeed, many members of that program don't earn enough to pay tax yet they do pay their social security membership, because of the benefits it brings. It's therefore difficult to make the connection between the new tax rule where some foreigners pay Thai tax, and membership of a health care program for which they have never paid any dues and most are are ineligible. 

[Henryford]

Surely most retired expats live here on pensions which they get from the old countries. These will have been taxed and therefore, under tax treaties, will not be subject to further thai tax. What's all the fuss about?

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Henryford said:

Surely most retired expats live here on pensions which they get from the old countries. These will have been taxed and therefore, under tax treaties, will not be subject to further thai tax. What's all the fuss about?

As a broad brush statement, that is correct. However, the detail is a little more complex than that because it means invoking a DTA, which very few people have done before, so few people understand how they work, including TRD staff! The biggest problem with many is the perception that Thailand will tax money that has already been taxed and many people can't see past that.

[Presnock]

On 5/31/2024 at 9:40 AM, black tabby12345 said:

At the end of tax year, the revenue department will find out what a waste of their time and energy to tax on foreign retirees.

Creating useless paper works for nearly nothing.

 

Well, I have to agree - at the end of the tax year  I can only imagine what it might be like in any of the RD offices with so many expats speaking little if any Thai and trying to figure out what the RD wants or needs to fill out a form or show what needed to prove non-assessable income.  With 61 countries also having DTA with their home country and Thailand, I wonder how well the RD folks are trained in that regard too.  In addition, we already have seen AN members talking about remitting much less $$$ into Thailand for expensive purchases or sums of non-assessable funds so that one doesn't need to remit

anything currently.  I would imagine that the RD take for next year will prove to be less than this year depending on number of Thais that do submit new remittances.  Guess we'll see soon just how many might

leave before they even become tax residents for this year.  Best of luck to all

[Presnock]

On 5/31/2024 at 6:02 PM, Gilligan In Drag said:

Maybe I'm just delusional but it seems a bit thin on the ground stuff to claim. This is something that the Prime Minister said, its not his job is it, to declare taxes and tax schedules and so on.  Where is the revenue department on all of this? If its the Prime Minister's idea, he could be outta here, he's facing problems is he not? It could well be just an idea.  Also, something I ask myself is what was the context of the PMs statement? You don't get any idea of how serious he is about this. And TIT, even if they are serious, the government branches do not communicate or cooperate well, they don't like each other and resent each others authority. My Thai wife who pays attention to the news says it seems they are putting on a lot of airs right now to save face  as the military coup government begins to step back into the shadows, they don't want to look like theye were ineffectual and of little impact. There's also all the Lazada Shoppe taxation brouhaha, my wife commented tha t they don't appear together at all or even serious on that stuff. Its just them trying to appear as though they are in control and in charge. I don't know if thats true or not, but it wouldn't surprise me. It would be a real first if they began actually cooperating  with Immigration or even the foreign embassies well enough to say deny people visas for not paying tax. You go to foreign embassies for visas, they are not the type to want to slog through a bunch stuff from the tax department for each visa that they issue. Embassies are just there to sort of hang out and go to cocktail parties and engage in a little espionage from time to time not grunt work like sorting through everyone's taxes.  They probably depend quite heavily on our visa application money and they know if they start denying people visas it cuts into their cut. It doesnt make sense to me that they would play along with this. Immigration doesn't strike me as the kind of outfit that is going to want to do the bidding of the revenue department or anyone, they are really a don't-tell-me-what-to-do bunch, they are police after all. How do you think the police would like being asked to sort through peoples tax junk  in your home country?  I used to work at a government university and immigration really did not like being told to give foreign profs visas. We were in there all day every year they were on the hone to my univeristy for hours and arms crossed and no, no, no! They are jealous of other government branches authority. Just by myself getting a marriage visa is no problem but if government university asks they were like, "Take a hike Mike! Who do you think you are!" I can imagine it would not be much different with the tax authority trying to tell them, "This guy clear that guy no, don't give him! Thsi one, yes, that one no way, go to his house and arrest him!"

 

It could have been something said to boost support for the PM or his party to get something done that perhaps opposition was saying Thailand couldn't afford like climate change compliance or whatever it is Hans Swab and Greta Toonsermuhgoochie and the globalist gestapo in Geneva want, so why not say you'll have nothing to eat and you'll be happy and that is supposed to mean something.

 

Or otherwise this whole tax thing is not yet  really here or there. The PM said it a long time ago as well. Why hasn't anyone at a more concrete level like say in the actual tax wing of the government said anything or even sketched out a few more details since? I remember looking at so-called translations of what you will have to pay, probably cooked up at some tax law or accounting firm over a case of Sang Som it was quite outrageous as I recall. I'd be paying 30 percent of something that is poverty level income, they seemed to clearly be doing a first run to see the reaction and we've heard nothing concrete since.  Then again I depend on this website alone for news about such stuff, so maybe the real enchilada has not been served up to us, but then again most of you don't like Mexican food, so there ya go.

Yessir!  I have seen on forums from other countries in the region that their country too has gone or is going through this same process.  Some of them indicate that pensions are just totally ignored by their country as it would be too difficult or they might lose too many expats...who knows for what reason, and who knows what Thailand might propose doing if anything.  Maybe they will just wait until tax processing time and see what falls out from the masses.  I sure have not idea what they might do...

[RocketDog]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:03 AM, wimpy said:

90% of my daily expenses are paid with a foreign credit card. What little cash I use is brought in through atm withdrawals, and goes into my pocket. Good luck taxing that.

So instead you are being raped by ridiculous FX rates and 'foreign transfer' fees. So you are paying either way.

 

I'm guessing you don't spend much here.

[Sydebolle]

Now the "dirty farang" and "alien" crowd has to come to rescue Thailand’s economic resilience for future challenges, such as purchase of three subs without engines, the ever-so-profitable Thai Airways and the State Railway of Thailand. 

Keep up the good work. You can take it to the bank that thousands of retirees will pack and move elsewhere; there is a limit to pounding, squeezing and getting treated like garbage by the official Thailand and its endless bureaucratic systems of making a foreigner's life difficult. 

[superal]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Eligibility for decent quality, "almost free", health care requires membership of the social security program, which costs around 500 baht per month, most expats are unlikely to want to use the 30 baht scheme. Membership of the social security program requires you to have been employed in Thailand, not necessarily to have paid taxes. Indeed, many members of that program don't earn enough to pay tax yet they do pay their social security membership, because of the benefits it brings. It's therefore difficult to make the connection between the new tax rule where some foreigners pay Thai tax, and membership of a health care program for which they have never paid any dues and most are are ineligible. 

Sorry Mike but I do not agree with you when you say most expats are unlikely to want to use the 30 baht scheme . E.G.  I would rather pay the 500 baht a month and qualify for say a cataract operation in a government hospital that will cost around 30,000 baht as of now . Furthermore how does the Thai government justify ex-pats paying taxes ? are they just copying other countries ? 

Ex-pats will now be careful of funds paid into Thailand . Tax avoidance scenario . Money transferred into Thailand via Western Union , by someone not living in Thailand , to a Thai family member or friend who then passes the money to you . Is that doable ? Cannot be illegal .
 

[Expat68]

I will just use my/my wives UK tax return to fill the form in, simple

Edited June 2 by Expat68

[wimpy]

55 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

So instead you are being raped by ridiculous FX rates and 'foreign transfer' fees. So you are paying either way.

 

I'm guessing you don't spend much here.

What are you talking about? I get a better rate than using Wise. What do you suggest for a better rate?

[bugger bognor]

Yet another thread no new information ! But Endless speculation, and the usual scaremongering. Pray tell me when did the Thai revenue department announce every expat has got to get a TN number and file a Tax return next year by LAW? When did immigration state that your visa won't be renewed unless you file a tax return!? When did any Thai government department state this will be enforced on all expats?  I will do absolutely nothing untill it is forced upon me by law and enforced, stop <deleted>ting yourselves 99.9% of retirees won't have to do a bloody thing or pay and file any tax return here. 

 Remember Folks NO ENFORCEMENT = NO COMPLIANCE unless you are a prize <deleted> 

[motdaeng]

29 minutes ago, bugger bognor said:

when did the Thai revenue department announce every expat has got to get a TN number and file a Tax return next year by LAW? 

 

the thai government likes to announce new laws (or the enforcement) with  only a short notice ...

 

btw. the law is pretty clear who has to fill a tax return ... also some embassy's have informed they citizens already about the new tax law ...

 

what is not clear right now, will the law be enforced or not ... if it will be enforced and you get caught, " telling them you didn't know" will not help you get away without some consequences ...

 

i personally go with "better safe than sorry" and did some preparation ... as the thai like to say : "up to you!"

[motdaeng]

2 hours ago, bugger bognor said:

99.9% of retirees won't have to do a bloody thing or pay and file any tax return here. 

 

where did you get this information? ok, it seems it is your speculaiton ... welcome to the party ...

 

2 hours ago, bugger bognor said:

Yet another thread no new information ! But Endless speculation

 

 

[CashMoon]

because of this law we have reduced the money we spend by 75%. we have decided to live in Vietnam. we are moving this month. this government even makes us miss the military junta.  by the way, all of my friends have drastically reduced their spending. everyone refuses to pay the unfair tax. if they insist on the tax, they will leave thailand. vietnam is a much cheaper country. it seems that vietnam will be the new destination for many people. 

 

[andux]

3 hours ago, CashMoon said:

because of this law we have reduced the money we spend by 75%. we have decided to live in Vietnam. we are moving this month. this government even makes us miss the military junta.  by the way, all of my friends have drastically reduced their spending. everyone refuses to pay the unfair tax. if they insist on the tax, they will leave thailand. vietnam is a much cheaper country. it seems that vietnam will be the new destination for many people. 

 

 

Vietnam has much higher taxes, the move doesn't make sense unless it's for other reasons.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

If anyone is interested this is a link to an article in Sunday's Telegraph (02/06) about the reciprocal tax agreement the UK has with various countries around the world, including Thailand.

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/double-taxation-works-countries-uk-060500245.html

 

 

Edited June 2 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[CashMoon]

26 minutes ago, andux said:

 

Vietnam has much higher taxes, the move doesn't make sense unless it's for other reasons.

To be tax exempt, we need to stay outside Thailand for 6 months. We have no other choice. We would like to spend our earnings in Thailand and contribute to the Thai economy, but the law does not allow us to do so. 

[Danderman123]

On 6/1/2024 at 4:09 AM, Baba Naba said:

I live only on a disability pension and SS. I paid no taxes in the USA and I'll be damned if i pay it here...

If you pay no taxes in the USA, it's possible the deductions you use in the US are not the same in Thailand. Which could mean a tax liability for you here.

 

Not likely, but possible.

 

And, like the US, you would have to fill out a tax return to prove you don't owe anything.

[Danderman123]

2 hours ago, CashMoon said:

To be tax exempt, we need to stay outside Thailand for 6 months. We have no other choice. We would like to spend our earnings in Thailand and contribute to the Thai economy, but the law does not allow us to do so. 

That's my strategy for 2024. I have been out of Thailand for 4 months already this year.

 

My flight back to Thailand arrives at 23.55.  if it arrives early, I will have to walk very slowly so I don't arrive at Immigration before midnight.

 

Next year, I will some months in early 2025 abroad, and then see what happens to the 100s of 1000s Farangs who don't file.

[xkkpafi]

Would be nice, instead of scaremongering, to get some practical help here, like how to fill in the LP 10.1 form.