A Question For Retirees On A Retirement Visa Extension In Thailand

[ChumpChange]

1 minute ago, foreverlomsak said:

I am with Lloyds, the account is held in Jersey, but the postal address is Isle of Man

I believe people who used to have accounts with them before in Gibraltar then had their accounts automatically moved to their Jersey branch, but I believe they use the Isle of Man address for Jersey accounts as you said. 

[NE1]

If the rumours turn out to be true , I wonder if the Monthly income will also double ?

That would be a killer for some.

[foreverlomsak]

17 hours ago, ChumpChange said:

Also, Wise is currently paying 3.31% interest on all GBP balances, no minimum balance required, and the interest is paid out monthly. 

Not if you don't have a UK address, and my pension companies will not credit my pensions into them as they are not a bank.

[ChumpChange]

6 minutes ago, foreverlomsak said:

Not if you don't have a UK address, and my pension companies will not credit my pensions into them as they are not a bank.

Checkout Skipton. 

[BigStar]

On 6/5/2024 at 3:12 PM, ChumpChange said:

I agree, it is to some, but sadly not to all. I remember when it was doubled before. Some left. Some stayed. And some switched to family visas. 

 

And happily countless others arrived and then stayed. 

[oxo1947]

On 6/5/2024 at 2:49 PM, ChumpChange said:

If say, within the next 2-5 years, the amount required to keep in a Thai bank (in your name in order to obtain a 1 year visa extension on the basis of retirement) is increased to 1.2 million Baht (50% increase) or to 1.5 million Baht (nearly 100% increase) on the basis of a higher cost of living in Thailand, then would you still consider extending your 1 year type-o visa in Thailand?

 

"If Say"---It hasn't changed since it was brought in about 20 years ago---and your talking about a possibility of a 50-to  100% increase. 

Also I think most long term stayers are married--which gives an option for  half that amount.  

I think most long term people view as getting better over the years.  Before it came , you had to leave the country to obtain another years  visa , air fares -hotels etc .

Then when that was stopped--- you still had to leave the country every 90 days--walk across a border do a U turn and come back.

They have brought in all other options for longer term Visa's --if that suits you.

 

Yet still you get people thinking---"there out to get us"

[ChumpChange]

6 hours ago, oxo1947 said:

 

"If Say"---It hasn't changed since it was brought in about 20 years ago---and your talking about a possibility of a 50-to  100% increase. 

Also I think most long term stayers are married--which gives an option for  half that amount.  

I think most long term people view as getting better over the years.  Before it came , you had to leave the country to obtain another years  visa , air fares -hotels etc .

Then when that was stopped--- you still had to leave the country every 90 days--walk across a border do a U turn and come back.

They have brought in all other options for longer term Visa's --if that suits you.

 

Yet still you get people thinking---"there out to get us"

There are many retirees in Thailand (on a retirement visa extension) who aren't married to a Thai too. Many who are married have the family visa and aren't on a retirement visa. 
 

If they increase the required amount again soon, now that it's already been 25 years since the last increase, it would make sense.
 

Cost of living and inflation. Consider the cost of food and rent in Thailand now versus 25 years ago.

[Sheryl]

It is  already effectively 1.2 million (more or less, depending  on your living costs) given that you cannot use the 800k  for living costs for 5 months of the year. 

 

 

[ChumpChange]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It is  already effectively 1.2 million (more or less, depending  on your living costs) given that you cannot use the 800k  for living costs for 5 months of the year. 

 

 

That's a good point. I think many also just leave the full amount there and never take any out during the year. The money is just kind of like a performance bond. 

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, ChumpChange said:

That's a good point. I think many also just leave the full amount there and never take any out during the year. The money is just kind of like a performance bond. 

Exactly what I do.  But that means I have to bring in more money for living costs.

 

In the good old days, I just topped up my account once a year then drew down on it  for living. 

 

And yes interest rates here are lousy. 

[how241]

21 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

And yes interest rates here are lousy. 

Yes they are.  I read a while ago, when the  Thai Central bank raised its interest rate to 2%,  they told the banks that it is not necessary for them to rate up their rates for their general customers. Currently the Thai central bank rate is 2.5%  but you will find it hard to get anywhere near that.  When I first came here in 2009,  the Thai banks would rate their rates the same as the USA  Fed did,  buy no more.  Definitely not good for the retirement visa people. It almost pays to use an agent but I was never comfortable with the illegality of that. 

[ChumpChange]

38 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Exactly what I do.  But that means I have to bring in more money for living costs.

 

In the good old days, I just topped up my account once a year then drew down on it  for living. 

 

And yes interest rates here are lousy. 

Yes, I had forgotten that you used to be able to use all the money up during the year and then top it up again just for renewal. 
 

Now I think many feel it's better to just leave the full amount there and not touch it because of a possible mistake on withdrawal and deposit dates. I've read of people making those mistakes and then having to fly out and start the whole visa process all over. 
 

Interest rates on fixed deposits in Thailand are slightly better, but still less than half of what you can earn at the moment on dollars.

[Sheryl]

16 minutes ago, ChumpChange said:

Yes, I had forgotten that you used to be able to use all the money up during the year and then top it up again just for renewal. 
 

Now I think many feel it's better to just leave the full amount there and not touch it because of a possible mistake on withdrawal and deposit dates. I've read of people making those mistakes and then having to fly out and start the whole visa process all over. 
 

Interest rates on fixed deposits in Thailand are slightly better, but still less than half of what you can earn at the moment on dollars.

 

Exactly, and what I do. Which means I have to keep in the bank in Thailand 800K plus what I need to live on plus a small cushion to that. At any point o f time I have from 1.1 - 1.5 million in Thai banks,

 

I am considering switching to the monthly income method as my SS has now reached the level where it is adequate for that. The drawbacks are (1) have to keep a close eye on exchange rates and be prepared to bring in additional money if the exchange rate drops enough, since the requirement is in baht; (2) have to worry about timing. My SS has arrived regularly between 1-4th of each month so far but I recall past reports of people who received their September payment on August 30/31 (because the 1st is a US holiday) and lost their extension accordingly because IO was rigid about transfer every calendar month.

 

So it is a trade off. The money in the bank money forfeits interest but is about the surest, safest thing one can do.

 

I currently get 5% interest in US and a little over that in Cambodia. So Thai rates are indeed very, very low.  Made even worse by my IO not accepting fixed deposit accounts. So my 800k receives essentially no interest.

[Mike Teavee]

36 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

(2) have to worry about timing. My SS has arrived regularly between 1-4th of each month so far but I recall past reports of people who received their September payment on August 30/31 (because the 1st is a US holiday) and lost their extension accordingly because IO was rigid about transfer every calendar month.

If I were to switch to the monthly income method, I'd set up a recurring transfer on Wise to send the money over 2nd week of the month, that way I could guarantee 65K would hit my account (though how much I pay to Wise would differ with FX rates) & the monies would always hit around about the same date in the middle of the month. 

 

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

If I were to switch to the monthly income method, I'd set up a recurring transfer on Wise to send the money over 2nd week of the month, that way I could guarantee 65K would hit my account (though how much I pay to Wise would differ with FX rates) & the monies would always hit around about the same date in the middle of the month. 

 

Wise rejected me as a client for no clear reason, years ago, so nto an option for me.

 For some reason my attempted first transfer (of equivalent to 800K baht, for visa purposes) was viewed as indicative of criminal activity leading to immediate suspension of my newly created account.  I found them impossible to deal with/communicate with.

 

This was Wise US, not UK.

 

I have my SS directly deposited to my Thai account, no fees involved and produces a clear paper trail showing source of the funds -- not just that from US, but from SS, which could prove very important in the future.

[ChumpChange]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

 

Exactly, and what I do. Which means I have to keep in the bank in Thailand 800K plus what I need to live on plus a small cushion to that. At any point o f time I have from 1.1 - 1.5 million in Thai banks,

 

I am considering switching to the monthly income method as my SS has now reached the level where it is adequate for that. The drawbacks are (1) have to keep a close eye on exchange rates and be prepared to bring in additional money if the exchange rate drops enough, since the requirement is in baht; (2) have to worry about timing. My SS has arrived regularly between 1-4th of each month so far but I recall past reports of people who received their September payment on August 30/31 (because the 1st is a US holiday) and lost their extension accordingly because IO was rigid about transfer every calendar month.

 

So it is a trade off. The money in the bank money forfeits interest but is about the surest, safest thing one can do.

 

I currently get 5% interest in US and a little over that in Cambodia. So Thai rates are indeed very, very low.  Made even worse by my IO not accepting fixed deposit accounts. So my 800k receives essentially no interest.

I feel your pain. I think to feel comfortable and not stressed, it's best to keep at least a total of 1.5 million in Thai banks. I realize not everyone can do that, but if possible it keeps things more relaxed. And then there is the dead money issue because of low interest on top of it as we have been discussing. 

 

I don't bother with any fixed deposits in Thailand. The interest rate is only nominally different and doesn't seem like it's worth the hassle. But I noticed quite a few foreigners in Thailand have fixed deposits for their 800K in the bank. I thought all IOs accepted that?
 

At least I benefited over the last couple of years by exchanging quite a bit into Baht at current exchange rates and built up more Baht reserves for the future. If you consider the standard THB/USD exchange rate to be 30-33 Baht per dollar then you've been making over 10% extra on every exchange for the last couple of years. So that compensates a bit for the lack of interest. 
 

But if you keep the money in either a UOB V-Care or UOB Secure savings account then they also provide free accidental death insurance that will provide your named beneficiary a payout equal to 10X your account balance or up to a max of 10 million Baht. Better than nothing. 
 

The monthly income method using SS sounds a bit tricky. But I think COLA increases could help to offset FX rate fluctuations in the future. Can't you also do a 50% income and 50% money in the bank mixture to avoid the possible problems with SS you mentioned? I guess more paperwork, but also another option. 
 

In regards to exchange rates and interest rates in general on US dollars, I assume the Baht will be closer back to a 33 exchange rate by the end of this year. If there are people who are relying on current exchange rates and the income method, then it could be a problem in the not too distant future. Same goes for Euro and GBP currencies. That's why I think it's best to put the money in the bank now and exchange it at current rates for the FX benefit if you can. Then your future is also more secure with the 800K requirement. 
 

With regards to interest rates paid by banks on US dollars, it is also likely that, within the next year, they will be half of what they are now. It is also likely that we won't see the same current interest rates again in our lifetimes that are available now. So anyone interested in securing the current interest rate levels for a longer period of time would be best to lock in a 3 to 5 year certificate of deposit now before rates start falling.  
 

Fidelity offers brokered CD's that are FDIC insured up to $250K from various top US banks like Wells Fargo, Bank of America, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, etc.

 

A present you can get around 4.5% to 5% on a brokered CD from Fidelity for terms of anywhere from one to five years. Just avoid the ones that say "callable" because that would give the bank the option to end the CD early if interest rates fall a lot. 
 

Unlike traditional Bank CDs, you can also resell these CDs like a stock if you prefer not to hold them until maturity. Once interest rates fall, you might even be able to resell some of these CDs at a profit prior to maturity since they would provide the buyer a high yield.  
 

Wells Fargo also pays the interest monthly on their CDs. Most others pay semi-annually.
 

The minimum investment amount for most of them is US$1,000, but some offer fractional CDs for as little as a US$100 investment. 

 

[Keeps]

Great post above from CC. Some very useful information and insight. Not very relevant to me regarding the products available, being a Brit. However, the general sentiment is very sound. 

 

I am not yet in need of a retirement visa/extension but will be in the not too distant future. I have been taking advantage of the current exchange rate and have transferred circa 1m THB at rates varying between 45-46.9 to the GBP solely for the purpose of the 'retirement account'. This compares to rates of 40-42 to the GBP in the not too distant past. This, combined with a very buoyant FTSE at the moment has put me in a fairly strong financial position.

 

Make hay whilst the sun shines - it won't stay like this forever. 

[biervoormij]

No one has talked about the remittance tax that has put in place this year. If I were to bring in 400K to meet the 1.2 million  or 700K to meet 1.5 million in addition to my living expenses I could possible be hit with a much higher tax rate in Thailand. 

 

I don't have a lot keeping me in Thailand other than I like it here. If I have to pay a 25% tax on 700K to meet new retirement visa requirements I think I would leave.

 

 

[ChumpChange]

7 hours ago, Keeps said:

Great post above from CC. Some very useful information and insight. Not very relevant to me regarding the products available, being a Brit. However, the general sentiment is very sound. 

 

I am not yet in need of a retirement visa/extension but will be in the not too distant future. I have been taking advantage of the current exchange rate and have transferred circa 1m THB at rates varying between 45-46.9 to the GBP solely for the purpose of the 'retirement account'. This compares to rates of 40-42 to the GBP in the not too distant past. This, combined with a very buoyant FTSE at the moment has put me in a fairly strong financial position.

 

Make hay whilst the sun shines - it won't stay like this forever. 

 

Thank you. Yes, my general sentiment is that interest rates are all going to fall and western currencies will all weaken against the Baht and all likely by the end of this year. The lower interest rates will occur from central banks cutting interest rates, which will also weaken their currencies (the Euro, Dollar, GBP) against Asian currencies and all will occur around the same time. So it will be a double hit when it happens and the 2 year honeymoon we have had on strong Western currencies since 2022 is about to end. As you said, make hay whilst the sun shines. So covert as much as you can into Baht while rates are high and lock in fixed income rates on bank deposits before interest rates start to fall. The Euro will probably be the first start falling since the ECB already just made their first interest rate cut earlier this week.

 

For GBP and Euros, there are never any fixed income opportunities as good as for USD. Usually you can't get any fixed deposits longer than 1 year for GBP. At the moment though you can get some decent interest rates on the GBP from Interactive Brokers who are paying nearly 4% on cash balances: https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/accounts/fees/pricing-interest-rates.php  - You can also get 3.5%-4% on GBP for a 6 month fixed deposit with UOB Bank in Singapore: https://www.uob.com.sg/online-rates/foreign-currency-fixed-deposits.page - This is about the best you can do. Maybe Lloyds in Isle Of Man and Skipton International in Jersey will offer some decent fixed deposit opportunities on GBP as well. 

 

As for your retirement visa, when you apply for your first 1 year visa extension on the basis of retirement, I believe you will need to prove that the 800K Baht came in from overseas. Not sure if they will accept evidence of inward transfers from a few years back though. There might also be a provision that says if you worked in Thailand and saved up the 800K from working in Thailand before retiring then you might not need to prove it came in from overseas. Someone with more knowledge on this can probably help confirm on those points though.

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan Swift]

On 6/5/2024 at 3:49 AM, ChumpChange said:

If say, within the next 2-5 years, the amount required to keep in a Thai bank (in your name in order to obtain a 1 year visa extension on the basis of retirement) is increased to 1.2 million Baht (50% increase) or to 1.5 million Baht (nearly 100% increase) on the basis of a higher cost of living in Thailand, then would you still consider extending your 1 year type-o visa in Thailand?

I wouldn't even do the 800,000 baht. That is the crazy way to do it. I just show income of $65,000 per month. That is money I can spend and live on, rather than park a huge amount of money uselessly in a bank. 

[Mike Teavee]

23 minutes ago, Jonathan Swift said:

I wouldn't even do the 800,000 baht. That is the crazy way to do it. I just show income of $65,000 per month. That is money I can spend and live on, rather than park a huge amount of money uselessly in a bank. 

 

Ironically, 800K is not a huge amount of money to me, but having to prove that I earn 65,000 THB (Never mind USD 🙂 ) every month is a problem as I live on Dividends/Rental Income which whilst over the 12 months averages out at >65K pm, I can't prove that I earn this every month.  

 

Even if I could use the income method, I'd still just park the money in the Bank as it's easier than having to worry about a payment failing, happening early/late so not hitting in the right month (Somebody mentioned this concern in connection with US Social Security in another thread) , not quite sending across 65K etc...

 

I don't know about everybody else, but I like to keep a proportion (2 years spends) of my "Assets" in cash as I don't want to find myself having to "Fire Sell" assets if I needed some money quickly, so I just look at the 800K in the bank as part of this "Oops Fund".

[steve187]

8 hours ago, biervoormij said:

No one has talked about the remittance tax that has put in place this year. If I were to bring in 400K to meet the 1.2 million  or 700K to meet 1.5 million in addition to my living expenses I could possible be hit with a much higher tax rate in Thailand. 

 

I don't have a lot keeping me in Thailand other than I like it here. If I have to pay a 25% tax on 700K to meet new retirement visa requirements I think I would leave.

 

 

what new retirement visa regulations, all such talk is just scaremongering

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, Sheryl said:

It is  already effectively 1.2 million (more or less, depending  on your living costs) given that you cannot use the 800k  for living costs for 5 months of the year. 

 

 

The 800,000 was my lifeline when I had to leave LOS. I'd have been in deep doodoo if not for that.

[ChumpChange]

16 hours ago, biervoormij said:

No one has talked about the remittance tax that has put in place this year. If I were to bring in 400K to meet the 1.2 million  or 700K to meet 1.5 million in addition to my living expenses I could possible be hit with a much higher tax rate in Thailand. 

 

I don't have a lot keeping me in Thailand other than I like it here. If I have to pay a 25% tax on 700K to meet new retirement visa requirements I think I would leave.

 

 

I don't know how the new remittance tax applies regarding a lump sum of money being brought in to obtain a retirement visa. It's a good question.
 

Maybe it's been covered in one of those two long threads about the new tax laws for foreigners in Thailand:

 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, ChumpChange said:

I don't know how the new remittance tax applies regarding a lump sum of money being brought in to obtain a retirement visa. It's a good question.

There's not been anything to say that it wouldn't be assessable for tax (same with bringing money over to buy property/cars etc...) so if the monies didn't come from pre-2024 savings & weren't covered by your countries DTA with Thailand then it would be taxable. 

[ChumpChange]

10 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

There's not been anything to say that it wouldn't be assessable for tax (same with bringing money over to buy property/cars etc...) so if the monies didn't come from pre-2024 savings & weren't covered by your countries DTA with Thailand then it would be taxable. 

That's a pity. I think having to pay an additional 20%-30% tax on certain things will prevent people from bringing money in at all for those purchases. 
 

Cars are already taxed at 100% I believe. Add another 30% to that and it seems unrealistic. So this kind of practice can't seem to help the economy. 
 

I wonder if you transfer in foreign currency for visa purposes (and keep the money in Thailand in that foreign currency) if it would still be taxed?
 

Regarding pre-2024 savings, if you can prove that you had (as an example) 500,000 dollars/euros/pounds in savings prior to 2024, then does that mean that you can bring in that amount in total, but split it between various transfers over the next 10-15 years and still have it be tax free?

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, ChumpChange said:

Regarding pre-2024 savings, if you can prove that you had (as an example) 500,000 dollars/euros/pounds in savings prior to 2024, then does that mean that you can bring in that amount in total, but split it between various transfers over the next 10-15 years and still have it be tax free?

Yes, anything that you already had as at end of 2023 can be remitted anytime you like with no tax implications, just be sure to keep records in case you’re ever asked for them. 
 

I don’t think you can use a Foreign Currency account for your retirement extension but @DrJack54might be able to confirm. 
 

[ChumpChange]

6 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I don’t think you can use a Foreign Currency account for your retirement extension but @DrJack54might be able to confirm. 
 

Yes, you can for sure. Many people do it. It just needs to be a FC account at a Thai Bank. I would prefer to have it in Baht though because the value of an FC account balance can fluctuate with exchange rates. 

[ChumpChange]

8 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Yes, anything that you already had as at end of 2023 can be remitted anytime you like with no tax implications, just be sure to keep records in case you’re ever asked for them.

That's interesting. I would want to test it first with a small amount because of the fact that how things work in actual practice can sometimes be different unfortunately. 

[DrJack54]

5 minutes ago, ChumpChange said:

Yes, you can for sure. Many people do it. It just needs to be a FC account at a Thai Bank. I would prefer to have it in Baht though because the value of an FC account balance can fluctuate with exchange rates. 

Correct.

The other thing to consider is that's it my understanding a FC account does not have the "less than one million baht guarantee" 

Happy to stand corrected.