Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[Celsius]

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There are days like today and posts like yours, that make me pause and wonder if any of this is worth the aggravation and effort.

 

Not really.... no

[TigerCat]

Expat Tax Thailand offers a free 15 minute consultation by video or phone call, and they emailed me a frequently asked questions page that they have - I found both to be very helpful.

 

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/

Edited July 9 by TigerCat

[gamb00ler]

49 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Yes.

 

I remitted one million baht to Thailand this year. It's my Social Security pension for the last decade or so.

 

So I don't have to report it.

The funds in your possession prior to this past Jan.1 are already exempted from Thai tax forever (if the Thai gov't is to be relied upon for their past statements).  You can just omit declaring those funds on any future tax filing but of course retain documentation proving your claim in case of audit.

[Yumthai]

23 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

in case of audit.

There are no audits in Thailand just negotiations.

[bugger bognor]

The UK annual tax  free allowance is 12570 UK pounds approximately 585000 baht  i  transfer less than that amount annually to my Thai bank account !  So am I liable for tax with the UK dual tax treaty ? Also I havent worked in the UK for thee years and have no paperwork to prove anything all my money is lifetime savings how do I prove decades of savings never filed a tax return always Been on PAYE  

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, bugger bognor said:

The UK annual tax  free allowance is 12570 UK pounds approximately 585000 baht  i  transfer less than that amount annually to my Thai bank account !  So am I liable for tax with the UK dual tax treaty ? Also I havent worked in the UK for thee years and have no paperwork to prove anything all my money is lifetime savings how do I prove decades of savings never filed a tax return always Been on PAYE  

Why are you asking, only ****** pay Thai tax, remember,

[Dogmatix]

19 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The twice yearly filing for overseas rental income is only applicable if the income is remitted in the first half of the year. A simple work around is wait until after June before remitting rental income.

 

I receive rental income from overseas and file UK taxes each year. I know what my tax position will be in each country I have income, well in advance of the filing date and I'll be very surprised it others don't know the same. If I file my Thai tax return in mid March, I may have to guess at the numbers for the last two weeks of the UK tax year but I think I can do that with some precision. As it happens, my rental income is die 10th of the month which means by 10th March, I have my complete UK figures.

 

To add: I have huge respect for poster Dogmatix's knowledge and research abilities on the subject of Thai tax and think his contribution to the topic has been truly outstanding. It's worth noting however that much of his interaction with the TRD on tax related matters, appears to pertain to business taxes or taxes relating to business. I'm not convinced if the TRD response to the general public will be the same hence I'm uncertain how much of that experience carries across.  

 

Definitely there is more flexibility on declaring overseas rental income to the RD under the current remittance tax regime but this thread is about the RD's intention to introduce global tax.  That would require you to declare overseas rental income on the same basis as Thai rental income, i.e. file a PND94 in September and a PND90 in March and pay tax twice a year. The basis for tax of property owned by individuals is that you pay tax on 70% of the income.  A deduction of 30% is permitted and, if your expenses and renovations are more than that, you may pay tax on the actual profit but will need to submit audited financial statements audited by a Thai auditor and I doubt that any would accept the job of auditing a foreign rental business. So the tax you pay in the UK is likely wildly different from the tax you pay in Thailand.  If you sell the property in the UK under Thai global tax, it will be taxed as income at your top marginal rate of tax. The current concessions vis a vis UK CGT obviously don't apply.  That the principle private residence exemption is not allowed.  The stepped up valuation as of 5 April 2015 for overseas owners who qualified for the Non-resident CGT scheme prior to 5 April 2015 will which make a huge difference to hose who have owned UK properties for decades. 

 

A real problem for those selling up in the UK to move to Thailand will be Thailand's lack of principle private residence exemption from capital gains tax.  Say a British couple sell their house in the UK free of capital gains tax because they lived in it the whole time they owned it.  Then they move to Thailand in the same year as the sale and before July, so they become tax residents.  Under global tax they will pay full Thai income tax on the gain that was 100% exempted in the UK. On the remittance tax basis they will get the same tax hit, if they remit the entire proceeds to Thailand, perhaps to buy property in Thailand.  A great start to life in Thailand for the unwary!  

 

I thank you for your plaudits but you are jumping to conclusions by saying my experience of Thai tax is limited to corporate taxes.  I have been filing my PND90 online in Thai for over 10 years which I think very few in this thread have done even once. This requires greater knowledge of the Revenue Code than those who go to the RD office and ask an officer to complete their tax return for them.  I also take the documents requested by the RD to the office and, apart from the COVID years, I take the documents requested to the RD office in person, where they open them on the spot and engage in some discussion of my tax return. Last year my Thai wife started to earn enough to be worth doing her tax return separately.  I have also done that for her online and this week will take the requested documents to the RD and discuss her tax return with them.  She is too busy to bother with that herself and, despite being an accountant by training, she has never done any work on tax.  

Edited July 9 by Dogmatix

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Dogmatix said:

 

Definitely there is more flexibility on declaring overseas rental income to the RD under the current remittance tax regime but this thread is about the RD's intention to introduce global tax.  That would require you to declare overseas rental income on the same basis as Thai rental income, i.e. file a PND94 in September and a PND90 in March and pay tax twice a year. The basis for tax of property owned by individuals is that you pay tax on 70% of the income.  A deduction of 30% is permitted and, if your expenses and renovations are more than that, you may pay tax on the actual profit but will need to submit audited financial statements audited by a Thai auditor and I doubt that any would accept the job of auditing a foreign rental business. So the tax you pay in the UK is likely wildly different from the tax you pay in Thailand.  If you sell the property in the UK under Thai global tax, it will be taxed as income at your top marginal rate of tax. The current concessions vis a vis UK CGT obviously don't apply.  That means that deduction will be allowed for the time the property may have been your principle private residence.  The stepped up valuation as of 5 April 2015 for overseas owners who qualified for the Non-resident CGT scheme prior to 5 April 2015 will which make a huge difference to hose who have owned UK properties for decades. 

 

A real problem for those selling up in the UK to move to Thailand will be Thailand's lack of principle private residence exemption from capital gains tax.  Say a British couple sell their house in the UK free of capital gains tax because they lived in it the whole time they owned it.  Then they move to Thailand in the same year as the sale and before July, so they become tax residents.  Under global tax they will pay full Thai income tax on the gain that was 100% exempted in the UK. On the remittance tax basis they will get the same tax hit, if they remit the entire proceeds to Thailand, perhaps to buy property in Thailand.  A great start to life in Thailand for the unwary!  

 

I thank you for your plaudits but you are jumping to conclusions by saying my experience of Thai tax is limited to corporate taxes.  I have been filing my PND90 online in Thai for over 10 years which I think very few in this thread have done even once. This requires greater knowledge of the Revenue Code than those who go to the RD office and ask an officer to complete their tax return for them.  I also take the documents requested by the RD to the office and, apart from the COVID years, I take the documents requested to the RD office in person, where they open them on the sport and engage in some discussion of my tax return. Last year my Thai wife started to earn enough to be worth doing her tax return separately.  I have also done that for her online and this week will take the requested documents to the RD and discuss her tax return with them.  She is too busy to bother with that herself and, despite being an accountant by training, she has done any work on tax.

You are correct, I had lost sight of the fact this thread discusses worldwide income, my apologies.

[Klonko]

6 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

That will be the consequence. I stop transfer money to my Bank account in Thailand. My solution is now to send the money to my daughters account. She has Thai and Foreign Passport. She study currently in Europe and is less then 180 days in Thailand. So she is not a Thai Tax resident. My daughter give me then her Thai ATM card and Pin, that then I can take out the money I need to support my Thai family in Thailand. LOL. That I am forced to go this way, is stupid. But TiT.

 

2 hours ago, Celsius said:

 

Are you ready to be lectured about your tax dodging skillz?

 

2 hours ago, itsari said:

Depends if his actions are considered avoidence or evasion of tax.

Never heard of tax dodging

 

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

There are days like today and posts like yours, that make me pause and wonder if any of this is worth the aggravation and effort.

I think you are too harsh Mike. There is value in Celsius' (slightly ironic?) post because IMHO, unless it can be qualified as gift of the daughter supporting her family, it is indeed illegal tax evasion which, however, will probably only be detected if TRD matches ATM drawdowns with stays abroad.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Klonko said:

 

 

 

I think you are too harsh Mike. There is value in Celsius' (slightly ironic?) post because IMHO, unless it can be qualified as gift of the daughter supporting her family, it is indeed illegal tax evasion which, however, will probably only be detected if TRD matches ATM drawdowns with stays abroad.

I think that's correct also. My difficulty comes with the posters use of the word lecture, whereas inform is more appropriate.

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, bugger bognor said:

The UK annual tax  free allowance is 12570 UK pounds approximately 585000 baht  i  transfer less than that amount annually to my Thai bank account !  So am I liable for tax with the UK dual tax treaty ? Also I havent worked in the UK for thee years and have no paperwork to prove anything all my money is lifetime savings how do I prove decades of savings never filed a tax return always Been on PAYE  

 

Right, let's start again, shall we.

 

If you've always paid tax using PAYE, that means that you have a UK tax account but have never had to file a return, because your tax has been adjusted via the PAYE system. But you can still access your tax account and see the payments that you've made, and your earnings, and get access to all kinds of useful and relevant tax information and forms, using the HMRC Government Gateway. I suggest you register for an account and log on and see what data exist, under your name.

 

https://www.gov.uk/log-in-register-hmrc-online-services

 

The Thai Revenue doesn't recognise your UK Personal Allowance, instead, they have their own system of allowance and deductions called TEDA. I know this will pain you to do so but I'm afraid you'll finally have to read the Introduction Thai tax which is linked below, if you want to understand this better. You don't say how old you are so it's not possible to establish the amount of your Thai TEDA but for anyone over aged 65, it's likely to be very comparable to the UK Personal Allowance.

 

 

[tomacht8]

6 hours ago, Celsius said:

 

Are you ready to be lectured about your tax dodging skillz?

Come on. Taxes are always a cat and mouse race. There is nothing wrong with thinking about in which hole you can possibly escape into.

 

I have paid taxes all my life and not a little. Apart from the fact that nobody actually has any influence on what a popularly elected or unelected government ultimately does with taxpayers' money, e.g. buying weapons or making politicians personally enrich themselves, I am not prepared to allow myself to be led to the tax slaughterhouse without a fight.

What the Thai government is planning to do is nothing other than pisssssing in the rice bowl of hundreds of thousands of expats who have no lobby or voting rights here anyway. In the end, nothing is being done other than curtailing the lives and freedom of many foreigners through a new, huge bureaucratic tax monster.

 

DTA or not, as always, attempts are ultimately made to take away money from foreigners through paperwork, which they have generally honestly earned and taxed over decades in their home countries. The privilege of being able to stay in Thailand for more than 180 days should be covered by the VAT consumption tax, vehicle tax, insurance  tax, etc. that you pay on everything. For me, the new tax plan is nothing more than pseudo-legalized theft.

That's how I see it on a larger scale.

Edited July 9 by tomacht8

[kinyara]

4 hours ago, bugger bognor said:

The UK annual tax  free allowance is 12570 UK pounds approximately 585000 baht  i  transfer less than that amount annually to my Thai bank account !  So am I liable for tax with the UK dual tax treaty ? Also I havent worked in the UK for thee years and have no paperwork to prove anything all my money is lifetime savings how do I prove decades of savings never filed a tax return always Been on PAYE  

 I'm in the same remittance range as you, ie under my UK personal allowance. In case you haven't already worked it out, in a worse case scenario if you were bringing in £12k at 46/£, were single and under 65 with no other deductable allowances your tax bill would be 26,700 baht - effective rate 4.8%.

 

I personally can't see a scenario even if I double my remittances where it would benefit me to spend less than 180 days in Thailand. Might be more of a consideration for renters rather than homeowners 

[tomacht8]

6 hours ago, TigerCat said:

Expat Tax Thailand offers a free 15 minute consultation by video or phone call, and they emailed me a frequently asked questions page that they have - I found both to be very helpful.

 

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/

You can read there pages. Can you call them anonymous or they want before hand your data? If it's the latter, I'd be careful.

Edited July 9 by tomacht8

[kinyara]

20 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

Hi guys, I have been following this subject on Asean Now closely, ever since the first crazy announcement by the Srettha-government in September 23.

 

All I can say is this, my choice of saving 1 million Baht yearly not to stay in Thailand more than 180 days per year has been surprisingly positive. I have aleady spent 4 months in two other SEA-nations.

 

It's great and truly an eye-opener in many, many, ways.

 

It is difficult to fathom the way Foreigners are treated in Thailand (by the Srettha Government)

 

Cheers

As a single guy if I had a potential tax liability of that magnitude I would definately do as you are doing and spend less than 180 days in Thailand - absolute no brainer.

 

Difficult to impossible however I would have thought for those settled with families who by nature of those they are supporting are likely to bring in more than the average single guy.

[tomacht8]

1 hour ago, kinyara said:

As a single guy if I had a potential tax liability of that magnitude I would definately do as you are doing and spend less than 180 days in Thailand - absolute no brainer.

 

Difficult to impossible however I would have thought for those settled with families who by nature of those they are supporting are likely to bring in more than the average single guy.

agree. It gets quite complicated for many people because of the threat of additional money being lost for zero benefits. I don't think a single foreigner will have any personal benefit from the extra money they have to hand over to the Thai tax office.

 

Good for those who may still have a base in their home country or the flexibility to stay under 180 days. I have my doubts as to whether the idea of asking all foreigners (>180 days in Thailand) to pay extra taxes is worth it for Thailand. There are currently 4 groups for me.

 

1. All standard pensioners with normal cash transfers that are just below or above the allowance limit. They can submit their tax forms without any pain. This means a lot of work and additional staff for the tax authorities with minimal revenue.

 

2. The big fishes with millions of dollars in their overseas accounts. These usually have top tax and legal professionals, as well as high-level relationships with banks and government agencies. They know all the ways to transfer large sums of money to Thailand over or under the table. It is rather unlikely that any of them will fall into the new tax net.

 

3. All those who are currently planning to retire in Thailand and want to sell their home for 200-600K dollars or euros and thought they could transfer their money to Thailand tax-free as before. Likewise, everyone who has planned to buy a condo or make larger investments in Thailand. This group will probably be wise to put on the brakes and wait. Thailand will definitely lose a lot of foreign currency inflow.

 

4. All those who have previously transferred yearly an estimated 1-5 million THB to Thailand. I belong to this group too. I think the majority of this group will not run into the open knife and think of evasive strategies. Be it reducing money transfers, staying in the country for less than 180 days, simply importing more cash, letting tourist friends exchange there money, using many transfer channels (Wise, Crypto, Papal, etc.) or working with gift transfers, etc. I have my doubts as to whether Thailand can easily generate the fat tax money they dream off with there new tax plans.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

agree. It gets quite complicated for many people because of the threat of additional money being lost for zero benefits. I don't think a single foreigner will have any personal benefit from the extra money they have to hand over to the Thai tax office.

 

Good for those who may still have a base in their home country or the flexibility to stay under 180 days. I have my doubts as to whether the idea of asking all foreigners (>180 days in Thailand) to pay extra taxes is worth it for Thailand. There are currently 4 groups for me.

 

1. All standard pensioners with normal cash transfers that are just below or above the allowance limit. They can submit their tax forms without any pain. This means a lot of work and additional staff for the tax authorities with minimal revenue.

 

2. The big fishes with millions of dollars in their overseas accounts. These usually have top tax and legal professionals, as well as high-level relationships with banks and government agencies. They know all the ways to transfer large sums of money to Thailand over or under the table. It is rather unlikely that any of them will fall into the new tax net.

 

3. All those who are currently planning to retire in Thailand and want to sell their home for 200-600K dollars or euros and thought they could transfer their money to Thailand tax-free as before. Likewise, everyone who has planned to buy a condo or make larger investments in Thailand. This group will probably be wise to put on the brakes and wait. Thailand will definitely lose a lot of foreign currency inflow.

 

4. All those who have previously transferred yearly an estimated 1-5 million THB to Thailand. I belong to this group too. I think the majority of this group will not run into the open knife and think of evasive strategies. Be it reducing money transfers, staying in the country for less than 180 days, simply importing more cash, letting tourist friends exchange there money, using many transfer channels (Wise, Crypto, Papal, etc.) or working with gift transfers, etc. I have my doubts as to whether Thailand can easily generate the fat tax money they dream off with there new tax plans.

Re. 3 above.

 

Worst case scenario AT PRESENT is to not be Thai tax resident when the overseas property is sold and the funds are remitted to Thailand, thereafter they are free of Thai tax. Under worldwide income, the picture changes of course.

[kinyara]

56 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

agree. It gets quite complicated for many people because of the threat of additional money being lost for zero benefits. I don't think a single foreigner will have any personal benefit from the extra money they have to hand over to the Thai tax office.

 

Good for those who may still have a base in their home country or the flexibility to stay under 180 days. I have my doubts as to whether the idea of asking all foreigners (>180 days in Thailand) to pay extra taxes is worth it for Thailand. There are currently 4 groups for me.

 

1. All standard pensioners with normal cash transfers that are just below or above the allowance limit. They can submit their tax forms without any pain. This means a lot of work and additional staff for the tax authorities with minimal revenue.

 

2. The big fishes with millions of dollars in their overseas accounts. These usually have top tax and legal professionals, as well as high-level relationships with banks and government agencies. They know all the ways to transfer large sums of money to Thailand over or under the table. It is rather unlikely that any of them will fall into the new tax net.

 

3. All those who are currently planning to retire in Thailand and want to sell their home for 200-600K dollars or euros and thought they could transfer their money to Thailand tax-free as before. Likewise, everyone who has planned to buy a condo or make larger investments in Thailand. This group will probably be wise to put on the brakes and wait. Thailand will definitely lose a lot of foreign currency inflow.

 

4. All those who have previously transferred yearly an estimated 1-5 million THB to Thailand. I belong to this group too. I think the majority of this group will not run into the open knife and think of evasive strategies. Be it reducing money transfers, staying in the country for less than 180 days, simply importing more cash, letting tourist friends exchange there money, using many transfer channels (Wise, Crypto, Papal, etc.) or working with gift transfers, etc. I have my doubts as to whether Thailand can easily generate the fat tax money they dream off with there new tax plans.

 

A realistic summary I think.

 

Even though I won't have large financial exposure I've already thought out what I think is a sensible approach for me with the current information available.

 

1) Brought in 2024 living money in 2023

2) Bring in minimal transfer of only 60,000 during 2024.

3) Bring in home currency cash from my annual trip overseas to exchange to Thai Baht in small amounts to cover one off item purchases or internal travel.

4) Withdraw the same amount each month from my bank account receiving overseas transfers to demonstrate a regular pattern and leve of living expenditure.

5) Follow closely the experience of those first timers who file between Jan-Mar 2025.

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

13 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

with holding 15% tax on interest is a logical move, making the people reclaim it if they don't owe tax. 

 

Do banks withhold 15% interest tax on accounts held by Thais?  Wife has four savings accounts and one fixed at three banks, no tax withheld.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, NoDisplayName said:

 

Do banks withhold 15% interest tax on accounts held by Thais?  Wife has four savings accounts and one fixed at three banks, no tax withheld.

Yes they do, the rules apply to everyone. But Thai's are able to receive the first 20k of interest tax free, because their ID card is their TIN. Foreigners can also show their bank their TIN and get the same treatment, I do.

[DrJoy]

On 7/4/2024 at 3:17 PM, Mike Lister said:

 

It isn't that "experts" are saying anything, it's what the TRD Code says.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21987.html

Why are you so excited ? What's in it for you?

[Mike Lister]

23 minutes ago, DrJoy said:

Why are you so excited ? What's in it for you?

Not so much excited as annoying when some people are unable to distinguish between what is written in law and the throw away lines that are little more than guesses. The problem arises when others read what is written and take the throw away lines as fact.

[Banana7]

Very valuable information here, from a professional lawyer in Bangkok. I highly recommend watching this video

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

1 hour ago, Banana7 said:

Very valuable information here, from a professional lawyer in Bangkok. I highly recommend watching this video

 

 

Good video pretty much sums it all up.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

 

Good video pretty much sums it all up.

 

3 hours ago, Banana7 said:

Very valuable information here, from a professional lawyer in Bangkok. I highly recommend watching this video

 

 

The video was the subject of an earlier debate, there is incorrect information in there so be careful. I'll look tomorrow doe that discussion and try to give you the link.

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

 

Good video pretty much sums it all up.

You know, there was a tax expert who gave an interview to an English language newspaper in Thailand recently and his information was so wildly wrong that it was sad. Within two days, he and the newspaper were extending their apologies and he was saying he was mistaken. At that point it's way too late, gullible people will already have seen it and said exactly what you did, "good video", after which they will have not reading anything further because they think they already have the answers, sadly, the wrong ones.

 

If you want answers on tax, read the Revenue or the Big 4 Accounting companies or in Thailand, Sherrings or Mazars but stop watching Youtube videos for god's sake.

[Presnock]

8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Not so much excited as annoying when some people are unable to distinguish between what is written in law and the throw away lines that are little more than guesses. The problem arises when others read what is written and take the throw away lines as fact.

Amen to that!  even though you provide them with the link so they can read it for themselves...I am not sure I understand where many of these folks are coming from.  Maybe some left their thinking in the laws of their home country.

[TigerCat]

13 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

You can read there pages. Can you call them anonymous or they want before hand your data? If it's the latter, I'd be careful.

They did not ask for my data before hand.

Edited July 9 by TigerCat

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, TigerCat said:

They did not ask for my data before hand.

You can also call the TRD call center,  the number has been mentioned before,  iirc 1161.

 

[Fat Bob]

So apparently with the new destination thailand visa foreign income is exempt from tax. It‘s starting to make a lot of sense on how it works. I feel totally jypped i haven’t even moved and gotten my elite visa stamp yet. 😂 I had a feeling there‘s always a way with Thailand. Might even get that visa to not worry about tax and just use the elite for the airport rides and travel more to max them out so I feel less taken advantage of. It‘s almost certain that there’s not gonna be any sales of the privilege visas and I really hope they don‘t close down. Still want my option to stay for 20 yrs if I like it there.

Edited July 11 by Fat Bob