Honda to cease productions in Ayutthaya by 2025, EV competition

[paul1804]

On 7/10/2024 at 9:16 AM, brianthainess said:

So why is the battery only guaranteed for 10 years, or will the car only last 9 ? + the fact will batteries deteriorate in time. 

Yes they will & when they are unservicable where will they be disposed?? Our children will look back on this EV era and shake their heads in disbelief. 

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, paul1804 said:

Yes they will & when they are unservicable where will they be disposed?? Our children will look back on this EV era and shake their heads in disbelief. 

 

Why is your ICE engine only guaranteed for 3 or 5 years?

 

MG EV's batteries, electronics and motors are guaranteed for life.

[brianthainess]

1 minute ago, paul1804 said:

Yes they will & when they are unservicable where will they be disposed?? Our children will look back on this EV era and shake their heads in disbelief. 

Very good point, in ten years there will be thousands if not millions of batteries dumped or burnt out all over the country. 

[Bandersnatch]

3 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Since ICE cars are typically still on the road and performing as intended 20 years after being built

 

Do have a supporting reference for that figure of 20 years or did you just make it up?

 

"What’s the Average Life of a Car?

In the past, the average lifespan of a car was significantly lower than it is today. Now, you can expect a standard car to last around 12 years or about 200,000 miles. More advanced vehicles like electric cars can go even longer, up to 300,000 miles."

 

https://cascadecollision.com/what-is-the-average-life-of-a-car

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, brianthainess said:

Very good point, in ten years there will be thousands if not millions of batteries dumped or burnt out all over the country. 

 

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Why is your ICE engine only guaranteed for 3 or 5 years?

 

MG EV's batteries, electronics and motors are guaranteed for life.

 

Nonsense.  Used EV batteries will be repurposed for Solar power and clearly MG disagree with you as they guarantee for life.

[herfiehandbag]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Why is your ICE engine only guaranteed for 3 or 5 years?

 

MG EV's batteries, electronics and motors are guaranteed for life.

Do they define life - or is It a case of when it stops working it is life expired?

 

The whole point of this debate is that when a part on an ICE fails it can be repaired or replaced, often relatively cheaply and easily, by a wide variety of workshops.

[brianthainess]

10 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Why is your ICE engine only guaranteed for 3 or 5 years?

 

MG EV's batteries, electronics and motors are guaranteed for life.

Enjoy the extra insurance that will now be needed for EVs. 

[transam]

1 minute ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

The difference between you and me handbag is that I own 2 Chinese EVs and you know nothing about the topic being discussed

You will tell us if you ever have a problem with your Chinese purchases, won't you, Bandy........? ......................🤭

[Aussie999]

and another vehicle manufacturer leaves... Thailand, the hub of losing manufacturers.

[JBChiangRai]

You will here BYD are offering a similar guarantee to MG before the end of august.  They are working on it now.

[motdaeng]

48 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Shh transam - I've already caused trouble by expressing an opinion he didn't agree with!

 

your opinion seems neither based on experience nor knowledge.

can you tell us about your background? thank you!

[herfiehandbag]

3 hours ago, motdaeng said:

 

your opinion seems neither based on experience nor knowledge.

can you tell us about your background? thank you!

No I shall not "tell you about my background". It has got the absolute cubed root of bugger all to do with you.

 

Owning or not owning an EV neither qualifies nor disqualifies one from holding or expressing an opinion, in fact I would suggest your last two posts on these topics display a quite astonishing degree of arrogance!

 

Suffice it to say, I do not agree with you. It is too late at night now to expand upon my arguments. If the feeling takes me tomorrow I will do so.

[Bandersnatch]

8 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Owning or not owning an EV neither qualifies nor disqualifies one from holding or expressing an opinion, in fact I would suggest your last two posts on these topics display a quite astonishing degree of arrogance!

 

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”

― Daniel Patrick Moynihan

 

Your opinions are not based on direct experience so are worth less than those of us with that direct experience. 

 

You have demonstrated that you don’t even process basic facts about ICE cars let alone EVs but you have demonstrated a…

 

8 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

quite astonishing degree of arrogance!

 

 

 

[herfiehandbag]

23 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

The difference between you and me handbag is that I own 2 Chinese EVs and you know nothing about the topic being discussed

 

15 hours ago, motdaeng said:

 

your opinion seems neither based on experience nor knowledge.

can you tell us about your background? thank you!

 

12 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

No I shall not "tell you about my background". It has got the absolute cubed root of bugger all to do with you.

 

Owning or not owning an EV neither qualifies nor disqualifies one from holding or expressing an opinion, in fact I would suggest your last two posts on these topics display a quite astonishing degree of arrogance!

 

Suffice it to say, I do not agree with you. It is too late at night now to expand upon my arguments. If the feeling takes me tomorrow I will do so.

 

3 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”

― Daniel Patrick Moynihan

 

Your opinions are not based on direct experience so are worth less than those of us with that direct experience. 

 

You have demonstrated that you don’t even process basic facts about ICE cars let alone EVs but you have demonstrated a…

 

 

 

 

This whole discussion about long term viability of EVs has degenerated into something of a slanging match, essentially based around the presumption that because I no longer drive, nor own an EV, I can not know anything on the subject and cannot hold an opinion. 

 

Let's consider some arguments.

 

Now I am perfectly prepared to admit that the every day running costs, at the point of use, of an electric vehicle (EV) are cheaper than an internal combustion engine vehicle (ICE). They emit, again at the point of use, virtually no pollutants, unlike an ICE vehicle.

 

However, and it is a very big however, the large scale mining operations and associated transport costs for sourcing the raw materials are significant, and do considerable environmental damage.

 

If, as some enthusiasts predict, EVs are to replace ICEs over the next "automotive generation" then a dramatic increase in the supply of electricity will be required. Such an increase, done rapidly, and of course with an eye to profit, means burning more fossil fuels. The demand such expansion would require would not come from renewable sources.

 

On the point of running costs, governments levy tax on motor fuels, rather a lot of tax. It is a significant source of revenue. Can we really expect, if the motor fuel tax take drops rapidly, that they would not look at taxing electricity for EVs accordingly?

 

The creation of infrastructure both for repair and servicing, training staff and the provision of "away from home charging points" will need to be paid for, expensive; all adding to the overall costs of running these vehicles.

 

The manufacturers of EVs are largely Chinese. They are subsidised by the Chinese government, and if we are to believe another thread on this forum are looking to increase subsidies from countries which they see as markets, and over which they wield significant economic influence. There is also the matter of overproduction, to keep the industry into which they have directed such substantial investment "booming" they need to produce more cars, even if they have difficulty in finding buyers for them. That is where my allusion to the Chinese property market come in.

 

Vehicle lifespan is frankly unknown. Yes I know manufacturers are claiming lifetime guarantees, but what exactly is a lifetime? I experienced that question when looking into buying an electric scooter for my daughter. Then of course there is the ever present perception of quality in Chinese products! One cannot deny that they have, shall we say, a somewhat "spotty" reputation.

 

Now I don't drive anymore. I happen to know one of the leading enthusiasts on this forum for EVs. I have seen his car ( although never ridden in it), it looks like a very nice car, and he is understandably pleased and proud of it. Cheaper and less polluting at the point of use it may be, but I still point to the longer term, more remote, economic, pollution and infrastructure questions.

 

For my money, the long term future is the development of more advanced ICE engines - hydrogen seems to have promise - particularly for trucks and buses for which electricity may not be feasible. Cars will benefit from "spin off" technology.

 

Anyway, I said I would expand on my views. I have. Shouting "shut up, you don't know what you are talking about", doesn't really contribute, nor does it come anywhere near debate. EVangelical enthusiasm is one thing, but zealotry is another!

Edited July 12 by herfiehandbag

[retarius]

On 7/10/2024 at 9:49 AM, thesetat2013 said:

I am stunned. However, anyone who knows how Chinese manufactures work would know recall that unless standards are set and met and checked regularly, then the production quality will decrease. Perhaps poor battery quality or some other expensive issue. China sells its best to 1st world countries. Even better than they sell to their own people in China. With even less quality to other Asian nations. Like I said, you get what you pay for. 

Are you saying the Chinese can't change? Think back to what the world call cheap crap Japanese motorbikes and cars in the 70s and early 80s. 

[ElwoodP]

Off topic posts removed.

[Bandersnatch]

17 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

However, and it is a very big however, the large scale mining operations and associated transport costs for sourcing the raw materials are significant, and do considerable environmental damage

 

BYD is the top seller of EVs in Thailand and the batteries are LiFePO4 as are the std range Teslas and many other EV manufactures are also making the transition. You are thinking of Cobalt mining in the DRC. You are obviously unaware that petrol and diesel have to be refined with cobalt catalysts that reduce sulphur and nitrous oxide emissions.

https://www.cobaltinstitute.org

 

As for Lithium the top source in the world is Australia with very little environmental damage.

 

30 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

dramatic increase in the supply of electricity will be required. Such an increase, done rapidly, and of course with an eye to profit, means burning more fossil fuels. The demand such expansion would require would not come from renewable sources.

 

Most EV charging in Thailand is either from solar or using half-price overnight TOU electricity.

 

33 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

On the point of running costs, governments levy tax on motor fuels, rather a lot of tax. It is a significant source of revenue. Can we really expect, if the motor fuel tax take drops rapidly, that they would not look at taxing electricity for EVs accordingly

 

“the Oil Fuel fund in the red about 100 billion baht from subsidising the diesel price”

https://www.nationthailand.com/thailand/policies/40036725

 

36 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

present perception of quality in Chinese products! One cannot deny that they have, shall we say, a somewhat "spotty" reputation

 

“Perception” exactly. My first Chinese EV is over 3 years old now and has been faultless, I wouldn’t  have bought another one if it had been otherwise. A number of forum members have bought the BYD Seal which was my second EV and have compared it favorable with BMWs, MBs and Porsches that they have owned.

 

46 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

away from home charging points" will need to be paid for, expensive; all adding to the overall costs of running these vehicles

 

The companies that run them run them at a profit. Buy an MG or BYD EV and every dealership has chargers in every province. As an EV owner I only need to use one on a journey over 600km.

 

51 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

hydrogen seems to have promise

 

 

You can’t buy a H2 car in Thailand and if you could there are no public filling stations.

 

“U.S. Hydrogen Car Sales Are Collapsing. They were already a tiny fraction of the market. Then, last quarter, sales dropped 91%.”

 

 https://insideevs.com/news/725999/us-hydrogen-car-sales-2024q2/

 

55 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Shouting "shut up, you don't know what you are talking about", doesn't really contribute, nor does it come anywhere near debate. EVangelical enthusiasm is one thing, but zealotry is another!

 

Do some research. Test drive my car a BYD Seal AWD Performance and then come back and you will find that you are treated with a bit more respect. 

 

https://www.reverautomotive.com/en/locator/dealer-station

 

In the meantime you can watch one of my videos  - don’t worry the channel isn’t monetized 

 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

On the subject of Hydrogen as a fuel.

 

It is very expensive, you start with electricity to make it and you end with electricity to run the motor.

 

In between these 2 points you waste 70-80% of the energy in losses.

 

More than one country has tried it and consumers didn’t like it

[thesetat2013]

1 hour ago, retarius said:

Are you saying the Chinese can't change? Think back to what the world call cheap crap Japanese motorbikes and cars in the 70s and early 80s. 

Tell you what... China could change, but that would mean paying more to their workers. Charging more for their products. I do not see that happening anytime soon. If it did happen they would probably lose out to other Asian countries willing to charge less for less quality. There will always be a need for something new that is substandard in quality. Poor people want to look rich too. 

[Bandersnatch]

32 minutes ago, thesetat2013 said:

China could change, but that would mean paying more to their workers. Charging more for their products. I do not see that happening anytime soon

Then you clearly don’t know too much about Chinese EV manufacturers many of which have premium brands. 
 

Denza, BYD’s JV with Mercedes-Benz Is one and here is another 

 

 

[BE88]

On 7/10/2024 at 8:01 AM, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

In the case of BYD, they were originally a battery maker.  Most people who understand batteries agree that BYD's blade battery is a leap forward in technology.

 

BYD and Tesla are a bit different.  They both looked at the market and thought outside the box about how to do it better.  Tesla have the lowest cycle time of any auto maker peaking at 38 seconds, Ford previously set the record at 53 seconds.

 

BYD looked and noticed that 70% of a car's parts are outsourced from OEM's and BYD decided to make their own parts and it's entirely the other way around in a BYD.  They even make the semiconductors in the computers/inverters etc.  This is the reason that they have much higher margins and sell so cheaply.

 

Look at it like this.  Toyota announces their new Camry is AWD, silent, has a 5 litre twin turbo engine with over 500hp, uses a quarter of the fuel of its 2 litre version and comes with 8 years free servicing and warranty, not only that, but it is also 15% to 20% cheaper.  I have just described a BYD Seal Performance.

 

We are not witnessing the usual incremental increase in quality, price and every other metric.  We are witnessing a revolution.

 

I agree that we are witnessing a revolution but I should wait at least another 5 or 10 years for it to materialize with new technologies especially on the battery because it becomes cheaper and more reliable and safer with greater autonomy of at least 3000 km.

[JBChiangRai]

17 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

I agree that we are witnessing a revolution but I should wait at least another 5 or 10 years for it to materialize with new technologies especially on the battery because it becomes cheaper and more reliable and safer with greater autonomy of at least 3000 km.

I think you can always wait for better technology.  ICE technology has come on leaps and bounds in the last 10 years. 
 

I can’t wait 120 years, BEV’s are good enough for me now.

[BE88]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think you can always wait for better technology.  ICE technology has come on leaps and bounds in the last 10 years. 
 

I can’t wait 120 years, BEV’s are good enough for me now.

 

If you are in a hurry and don't want to wait for the technology to improve, it's all at your own risk as the Chinese guarantees. This is why Japanese companies don't want to go down the same path while the Chinese have nothing to lose other than making money with hard-pressed buyers like you.

 

[Bandersnatch]

52 minutes ago, BE88 said:

agree that we are witnessing a revolution but I should wait at least another 5 or 10 years for it to materialize

So you’re happy to continue to drive your slow, noisy, dirty fossil wagon for another 10 years because you think EVs will be better then.
 

Of course they will be better, but I will be on my 4th EV by then having had the pleasure of driving fast, quiet, clean cars  all that time.

[bokningar]

On 7/10/2024 at 1:30 AM, JBChiangRai said:

The writing on the wall has been “EV” for many years. You can’t fix Stupid and the Japanese have been that with a capital S.

 

February through June this year has seen the EV share of vehicles increase every month and the ICE share decline.

 

Price being equal, consumers choose EV.

The EV market is subsidized all over the world, and the Chinese is laughing.

To man EV cars is produced.

 

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

57 minutes ago, bokningar said:

The EV market is subsidized all over the world, and the Chinese is laughing.

That is not the case. EV subsidies tend to be introduced to pump prime EV demand then they are phased out.
 

There are no direct subsidies in mature EV markets like Norway and the UK.

 

Thailand has a plan for both tax and non-tax incentives from 2022 until 2025.

 

Don’t forget the Diesel subsidies in Thailand far exceed EV subsidies 

 

“the Oil Fuel fund is in the red about 100 billion baht from subsidising the diesel price”

https://www.nationthailand.com/thailand/policies/40036725

 

 

 

 

[BE88]

1 hour ago, Bandersnatch said:

So you’re happy to continue to drive your slow, noisy, dirty fossil wagon for another 10 years because you think EVs will be better then.
 

Of course they will be better, but I will be on my 4th EV by then having had the pleasure of driving fast, quiet, clean cars  all that time.

 

I have no car and no interest in driving your dirty "ecological" car that you pride yourself on driving.