Upgrade Solar Inverter+ Batteries now or wait

[eddysacc]

Am thinking about upgrading our home solar farm recently.

 

My idea is to buy a deye 10kw single phase hybrid inverter 

+

About 20 kw of life4po battery capacity 

 

 

 

But battery wise:

 

From my observation the battery prices for life4po LFP batteries have come down quite a bit over the last year or so.

 

But now there are new battery technologies on the horizon.

 

First the sodium lithium batteries which are going to be in mass production soon.

(There have been big projects been built in China recently)

 

I guess the solid state battery technology is not yet on the horizon for many years.

 

--> would it be wise to wait for the sodium batteries ? Opinions?

 

 

Inverter wise:

 

The deye sun hybrid Inverters are many years on the market if I have this right.

 

There was just a polished version of the deye sun announced last week. But all I see is that they put the old technology in a new box and upgraded the display.

 

Actually I am wondering when a new generation of hybrid inverters Will enter the market in thailand.

 

I have got a EV car to charge at home. So an improvement in charging technology would come as a bonus aswell.

 

Any new insights anybody?

 

 

[BritManToo]

I bought a Mr. Power 5k5 hybrid inverter (with wifi) for 13kbht 2-3 years back.

The wifi interface isn't that smart or that pretty, but it works as well.

It's suffered through being shorted out, and a few different power outrages, but keeps on working (after a reset).

 

Can't see the reason for spending big money on an inverter when the cheap ones work just as well.

As for batteries ...... who can predict the future?

 

 

[UWEB]

Do it now or you will wait forever, there are always new improvements on the horizon.

[Pink7]

2 hours ago, UWEB said:

Do it now or you will wait forever, there are always new improvements on the horizon.

True..

 

 

Pink

[lom]

5 hours ago, eddysacc said:

But all I see is that they put the old technology in a new box and upgraded the display.

How do you know what improvements they have made to the new line except for the upgraded display?
 

 

5 hours ago, eddysacc said:

 

Actually I am wondering when a new generation of hybrid inverters Will enter the market in thailand.

What features do you expect to get in a new generation of inverters, what are you missing in the current ones?

[Muhendis]

9 hours ago, eddysacc said:

First the sodium lithium batteries which are going to be in mass production soon.

It is highly unlikely that a sodium lithium battery will ever be invented.

Sodium and lithium are in close proximity to each other on the periodic table so it would not really make sense to include both elements in a battery.

I think what you mean are sodium ion batteries.

These are available now but it may take some time for them to appear on Lazada. They are currently being fitted to some new cars.

You might like to look at lead carbon batteries. I have these in my storage system they are a fairly recent innovation and quite cheap too.

So far mine are doing exceptionally well. I won't go into detail here because all the information is readily available on Google.

 

[Muhendis]

16 hours ago, Muhendis said:

It is highly unlikely that a sodium lithium battery will ever be invented.

Sodium and lithium are in close proximity to each other on the periodic table so it would not really make sense to include both elements in a battery.

I think what you mean are sodium ion batteries.

These are available now but it may take some time for them to appear on Lazada. They are currently being fitted to some new cars.

You might like to look at lead carbon batteries. I have these in my storage system they are a fairly recent innovation and quite cheap too.

So far mine are doing exceptionally well. I won't go into detail here because all the information is readily available on Google.

 

Perhaps I should mention, when looking at lead carbon battery specs., watch out for the maximum life expectancy. This will be either 15 or 20 years.

The difference between the two is the mode of operation. The VRLA type will be 15 years and the 20 year battery will be gel.

The life expectancy is based on standby use with trickle charge. 

In all other respects except one, they perform as well as LiFePO4's.

The exception is: They are heavy.

You wouldn't want one of them in your smart phone.

[eddysacc]

5 hours ago, Muhendis said:

Perhaps I should mention, when looking at lead carbon battery specs., watch out for the maximum life expectancy. This will be either 15 or 20 years.

The difference between the two is the mode of operation. The VRLA type will be 15 years and the 20 year battery will be gel.

The life expectancy is based on standby use with trickle charge. 

In all other respects except one, they perform as well as LiFePO4's.

The exception is: They are heavy.

You wouldn't want one of them in your smart phone.

 

I asked my friend Google indeed and all it showed was carbon lead batteries would have about 2000 cycles.

 

I will give it another try.

 

 

[eddysacc]

On 8/2/2024 at 3:32 PM, lom said:

How do you know what improvements they have made to the new line except for the upgraded display?
 

 

What features do you expect to get in a new generation of inverters, what are you missing in the current ones?

All the most charging features for my ev.

To name is direct communication inveter <-> car battery

This would also.allow Vehicle to grid

 

More efficient charging from.solar. preferably DC to DC

 

 

Some features are available in the US market what I see. But very pricey indeed.

 

 

 

 

[Muhendis]

32 minutes ago, eddysacc said:

 

I asked my friend Google indeed and all it showed was carbon lead batteries would have about 2000 cycles.

 

I will give it another try.

 

 

OK

2,000  cycles would probably be at 80% dod. That's still good for 5½ years

My target dod is 30% which is good for about 10 and a bit years.

Here's the spec sheet for my batteries. You will need to scroll down to get to the interesting bits.

https://www.csbatterycn.com/hdc12-250-12v-250ah-fast-c-lead-carbon-battery_p289.html

Note the temperature range and charge acceptance (speed of charge) figures.

I have 12 of them at 48v which gets me 36kW 

My inverter is home brew 8kW low frequency.

Charge controllers are 2x60A

Solar panels are 2 strings of 6 panels 550W each.

[eddysacc]

Looking up the prices at lazada.

 

 It's about 15k thb for a 12V 150AH lead carbon battery of the type you presented.

 

On the other side the prices for Life4po LFP batteries are the better choice in terms of bang for the buck.

 

To my understanding the life time with 6000 cycles is considerably higher with LFP.

 

So it's a no brainer to buy LFP battery at this point of time.

 

 

Correct me where I go wrong.

 

 

I think there are at least 3 to 4 decades ahead in my life to benefit of the >6000 cycles of a LFP battery.

 

Sodium ion batteries with their even more cycles could last even longer. 

But who knows how long we may benefit of the globalised world supply chains. There are strong  forces to bring the established system to a halt. That's for sure.

 

 

[eddysacc]

Just an example for LFP battery 

 

[patman30]

look into NiFe batteries
they cost a bit more but should never need replacing so work out cheaper in the long run
they also do not mind being fully charged and fully discharged
(which a 20KW batt would likely be)
my next setup will use NiFe batteries
(currently off grid, 15KW with 60KW SOC)
 

[Muhendis]

1 hour ago, eddysacc said:

It's about 15k thb for a 12V 150AH lead carbon battery of the type you presented

Ouch!

At those sort of prices you're right to go for the LiFePO4's

I paid just over 9K each for mine including taxes and delivery.

I bought them direct from CS Power just short of a year ago.

[Muhendis]

1 hour ago, eddysacc said:

To my understanding the life time with 6000 cycles is considerably higher with LFP.

What's the dod for 6k cycles?

[eddysacc]

It is often said thst Lead Acid and AGM batteries exhibit a DoD range of 50% to 80%, emphasizing the need for cautious discharge levels. Lfp batteries, boasting a range of 90% to 95%, provide exceptional flexibility without compromising longevity.

 

I think to be on the super safe side and maxing out lfp battery life span it would be a good idea to not exceed the dod to excess and use only 85 to 90 % of its capacity.

 

 

That's what I do with my EVs lfp battery by the way. It seems to be working from the battery health measurements.

[Muhendis]

2 hours ago, eddysacc said:

It is often said thst Lead Acid and AGM batteries exhibit a DoD range of 50% to 80%, emphasizing the need for cautious discharge levels. Lfp batteries, boasting a range of 90% to 95%, provide exceptional flexibility without compromising longevity.

 

Lead acid and AGM are the same thing and I agree caution about dod ranges. At 80% dod you'd be doing well to get 300 cycles out of them.

Lead carbons, whilst still the same basic chemistry, are a whole world different as I expect you have already noticed. 

You quoted 6k cycles earlier

On 8/4/2024 at 12:36 PM, Muhendis said:

To my understanding the life time with 6000 cycles is considerably higher with LFP.

Are you able to say at what dod this number of cycles refers? 

We'd be looking at just under 16½ years life expectancy.

That's a huge number of cycles and well worth the investment if the price is right.

2 hours ago, eddysacc said:

I think to be on the super safe side and maxing out lfp battery life span it would be a good idea to not exceed the dod to excess and use only 85 to 90 % of its capacity.

Remaining capacity and hence life expectancy of batteries is based on the number of cycles at a particular dod. Once the capacity has dropped to 80%, that is when the battery is considered to be at the end of it's useful life.

Have you looked at flow batteries? they can go on forever at 100% dod. They will occasionally, after many years, require membrane replacement and maybe electrolyte top up. The only downside for us mere  mortals is the mortgage needed for the original purchase.

 

[Ben Zioner]

On 8/2/2024 at 9:58 AM, eddysacc said:

Am thinking about upgrading our home solar farm recently.

 

My idea is to buy a deye 10kw single phase hybrid inverter 

+

About 20 kw of life4po battery capacity 

 

 

 

But battery wise:

 

From my observation the battery prices for life4po LFP batteries have come down quite a bit over the last year or so.

 

But now there are new battery technologies on the horizon.

 

First the sodium lithium batteries which are going to be in mass production soon.

(There have been big projects been built in China recently)

 

I guess the solid state battery technology is not yet on the horizon for many years.

 

--> would it be wise to wait for the sodium batteries ? Opinions?

 

 

Inverter wise:

 

The deye sun hybrid Inverters are many years on the market if I have this right.

 

There was just a polished version of the deye sun announced last week. But all I see is that they put the old technology in a new box and upgraded the display.

 

Actually I am wondering when a new generation of hybrid inverters Will enter the market in thailand.

 

I have got a EV car tf o charge at home. So an improvement in charging technology would come as a bonus aswell.

 

Any new insights anybody?

 

 

Have you tried to calculate the cost of production and storage per KWh and compared the result to the PEA Unit price?

 

For instance if the battery has a life expectancy of 10 years and costs 300000 Baht the storage would cost 300000/ (20KHh x 3652.5 deep cycles). That's about 4.1 Baht for storage only. 

 

AFAIC this leads me to an on grid setup just large enough to keep the house nicely cool at day time .

[lom]

10 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

For instance if the battery has a life expectancy of 10 years and costs 300000 Baht the storage would cost 300000/ (20KHh x 3652.5 deep cycles). That's about 4.1 Baht for storage only. 

well, a 20KWh lifepo4 battery doesn't cost 300.000, it doesn't even cost half of that. Your example of battery life expectancy is also on a very low side

[UWEB]

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

Have you tried to calculate the cost of production and storage per KWh and compared the result to the PEA Unit price?

 

For instance if the battery has a life expectancy of 10 years and costs 300000 Baht the storage would cost 300000/ (20KHh x 3652.5 deep cycles). That's about 4.1 Baht for storage only. 

 

AFAIC this leads me to an on grid setup just large enough to keep the house nicely cool at day time .

I just have got 3 x 10 kwh Batteries installed, price was 75.000 THB each including all necessary installations.

[Ben Zioner]

25 minutes ago, UWEB said:

I just have got 3 x 10 kwh Batteries installed, price was 75.000 THB each including all necessary installations.

Ok, see you in ten years.

 

But you might be lucky. I base my caution on what EV manufacturers offer in terms of warranty, etc.. And most car batteries will be submitted to less deep depletions than domestic off line storage. Also do we know anyone who used these super duper lifepo4 batteries for more than 5 years?  Do we know which supplier is reliable? 

 

[Crossy]

We got two new 280Ah 48V (about 14kWh each) LiFePO₄ packs from Shenzhen Luyuan Technology Co., Ltd.

 

All in USD3,774 (134,000 Baht) for two including DDP shipping to Thailand. Saved a few hundred $$ by ordering them as kits rather than fully assembled. Amy Wan and Shenzhen Luyuan come highly recommended on other solar power forums.

 

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/14KW-48V-51-2V-280AH-Pre_1600894719244.html

 

We treat our batteries reasonably gently with our battery capacity (about 70kWh in total) being about double our total daily energy usage (30-40kWh) so we are not often below 50-60% remaining before the sun wakes up and recharges them (we used 25kWh from the batteries overnight with them being at 60% this morning). I expect them to go on for a goodly while. 

 

It's worth remembering that most EV manufacturers offer an 8-year guarantee on their batteries with at least one (MG, I expect others to follow suit) being unlimited mileage. The warranty being that the pack will retain at least 80% of its capacity.

[eddysacc]

Does the importet battery come with warranty?

I see some batteries on lazada coming with a 5 year warranty.

I assume I would not be easy to enforce a warranty claim in thaialnd though.

 

May I ask you how long was the delivery time?

What currency did you pay,USD? Credit card or bank wire?

 

The battery looks very nicely priced.

But what if they scam me?

 

[Crossy]

3 hours ago, eddysacc said:

Does the importet battery come with warranty?

I see some batteries on lazada coming with a 5 year warranty.

I assume I would not be easy to enforce a warranty claim in thaialnd though.

 

May I ask you how long was the delivery time?

What currency did you pay,USD? Credit card or bank wire?

 

The battery looks very nicely priced.

But what if they scam me?

 

 

Luyuan are well respected on several other DIY solar forums, never heard of any scams involving them.

 

Delivery is by road, IIRC it took a couple of weeks after actual dispatch.

 

Payment is via Alipay use Yuan or USD (get a small discount for Yuan), several options, I use my UK credit card. I did have to talk to the fraud department in order to authorise the first payment but since then no issues.

 

Warranty is, I believe, 1 year, but verify with them, you have to use chat to sort out all the options and agreed price.