Looking to buy a new SUV - any recommendations?

[KhunLA]

7 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

First of all manufacturers are lying about range in the case of BEV. Consumer organizations have shown that the actual range is often way less than the manufacturers advertise.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electric-vehicles-consumer-reports-driving-range-study/

 

As you say yourself, when you're away from the house in areas with no charging infrastructure you quickly get charging anxiety with an electric car.

 

The average range of an electric car this year, 2024, is 320 kilometres on a single charge. Not 500+.

 

https://www.peterhanleymotors.ie/article/electric-cars---is-range-still-an-important-issue-when-buying-a-car

 

 

Can't speed of all manufacturers, but MG info is spot on, and most testing is done by 3rd party, so would think most are accurate ... BUT ... read the tests, speed and conditions of.

 

Our MG ZS is rated ...

NEDC 403 kms (Not Even Damn Close), for 'normal' driving, but saying that, I have actually exceeded a possible 403 kms range, during short distances.

 

WLTP 320 kms, which we consistently exceed, even at highway speeds.  Actually rare we get 320 kms from full charge.  Not that we would ever take it down that low.

 

We top up after 3-4 hrs on Thai roads, if not sooner, as that is long enough for use to be in the car at any one time.

 

The average range is <400 kms, because most people don't need or want to pay for more.   Simple enough.

 

In TH, I've yet to have range anxiety, as more than enough CS, and I've yet the need to Q up at any, and I've driven during long weekends.

 

Your lack of knowledge & experience in mind boggling, but continue to repeat yourself, as I always need a chuckle.

[KhunLA]

17 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

The thing is those arguments could become secondary concerns if a hydrogen car sees production which:

 

1) Like the new Toyota Yaris GRH2 only takes a minute and a half to fill completely full of Hydrogen, is even faster to fill up than a petrol car, let alone 8 hours overnight like for a BEV.

 

2)  Is far more resiliient to hot and cold climates. Lithium batteries can withstand up to -140 degrees Fahrenheit before they start to freeze up, which can still occur occasionally. Hydrogen can withstand -435 degrees Fahrenheit, which shows it is the best choice in cold temperatures worldwide. The same holds true when comparing the hot end of the spectrum: Hydrogen has a much broader climate adaptability than the other two options currently available.

 

3) Which will not run out of material to build batteries, like BEVs soon will. Lithium batteries are not made out of materials that can easily be produced. In fact, many people, such as the CEO of Toyota (former CEO Akio Toyoda), see a shortage of lithium and battery-grade nickel, which means that there will be a lack of materials needed to produce the lithium batteries used in EVs. That could create a major setback in the move towards electric vehicles, which could be avoided by using hydrogen-powered engines if they are engineered to maximize their full potential.

 

4) Sounds like a real car, not like a dead remote.

 

5) Is not as prone to exploding as lithium battery BEVs

 

6) Is much longer lasting than lithium battery BEVs.

 

Given all the above advantages most consumers would then choose a hydrogen car rather than a BEV.

You're a bit behind, as I already posted.  Hydo cars around for 30 years already with plenty of R&D, and still nothing, except failed experiment in Calif, USA.

 

We'll see flying BEVs, and cows & pigs before we see Hydo cars mass produced and on the roads with a topping up network.

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

24 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

I can not only see it, it is happening right now:

 

Green hydrogen: cheaper than fossil fuel hydrogen by 2030

 

Renewable green hydrogen is on track to be less expensive than fossil fuel generated hydrogen by 2030, according to a new Bloomberg report.

 

There are two main reasons for the falling cost of renewable green hydrogen: economies of scale and electrolyser improvements.

 

‘Economies of scale’ is the term used to describe the savings that come from producing something in large quantities, with lots of competitors in the market. That is exactly what’s happening with green hydrogen, with the global market forecast to be worth US$280 million by 2050. Current production is around 2GW, with that predicted to grow to over 100GW by 2030.

 

The second major factor helping drive down costs is electrolyser innovation, including new lower-cost Chinese electrolysers that have achieved world-beating rates of efficiency. The price of all electrolysers is falling, as capacity, competition, and efficiency increase. This will allow for larger facilities to be built, producing more green hydrogen and bringing the cost into line with fossil fuel hydrogens. Then as we keep investing in green hydrogen, it is on track to become even cheaper than the other types. At that point, other types of hydrogen are likely to be slowly phased out as we detransition away from fossil fuels altogether.

 

https://clarus.co.nz/content-hub/green-hydrogen-cheaper-than-fossil-fuel-hydrogen-by-2030

 

Looks like McKinsey didn't do their homework. This report is by Americans and New Zealanders, looks like they also see hydrogen prices falling substantially. Guess the Japanese at Toyota knew something the McKinsey guys didn't.

 

You're comparing different types of Hydrogen. Try comparing it to the electricity used to make Green Hydrogen. That is the key to the whole issue.  You start with electricity and in your HFCEV you end up with electricity to run your electric motor.

 

The scenarios I gave assumed 100% efficiency in the electrolysis process (which is impossible).

 

Look at the cost of running a Hydrogen car in California.  It costs $180 in Hydrogen for a Toyota Mirai, a Tesla Model 3 charging at home can be only $9.  20 times more.  Green Hydrogen is forecast to drop in price by 50% by 2050 so fueling your Toyota Mirai will only be 10 times more expensive than your Tesla. Future costs of hydrogen: a quantitative review - Sustainable Energy & Fuels (RSC Publishing) DOI:10.1039/D4SE00137K

 

This is why people will always choose BEV's.

 

As for range, you can buy the car with the range you need.  My stated range is 580km on the ridiculous Chinese cycle, realistically it is 500km.  I only need 200km and if I could have saved some money and got a smaller battery, I would have done.

 

Top speed is a non-issue except for a very few drivers who may choose a Porsche Taycan which has a 2-speed gearbox.  There is no issue with power in EV's, mine does 0-100kmhr in 3.8 seconds, I don't know what the top speed is and I have no intention of finding out.  I would like more power, I use all of that when overtaking.

 

I had range anxiety before I bought my first EV, once I had and saw all the chargers in Thailand, I realised it was a non-issue for me.

 

 

[KhunLA]

29 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

A top speed of 170 kph is actually quite low compared to most petrol cars.

I don't need or want to go that fast.  But I can get to 100 kph in ~8 secs, and pass slower cars using much less road than in our ICE version.  Beats the hell out of ~12 seconds in our ICE version of the same.   

 

Don't need to get to 100 kph any faster than 12 seconds, let alone 8 seconds, unless passing, then quite handy.

 

Again, speed limits, 90 & 120 kph.

 

We could have got the X model of our MG ZS EV, instead of D model, for a mere 70k baht.   Actually quite the bargain for the extra electronics & sunroof for that price.   But we didn't want or need, or would use, so why bother.

 

Who the hell needs to go faster than 120 kph, especially if living in TH ?  i rarely drove faster than that in the USA, unless out playin on my scooters.  That's an expensive ticket in the USA, and I lost my license enough times for speeding in USA ... 

[mahjongguy]

Twelve years ago I paid 1.52 mil baht for the top model CRV.  Left it parked outside all day, all night, a few dozen meters from the beach.  Over the years I bought new tires, and replaced some rubber parts in the undercarriage.

 

In March of this year I sold it to a good friend for a few hundred thousand and bought the current top model, the RS hybrid. It's got classic good looks, feels like a spaceship inside. Gets twice the kilometers per liter.  

 

Out the door it was 1.7 mil baht. Is that "over-priced"? 

 

[Cameroni]

35 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Can't speed of all manufacturers, but MG info is spot on, and most testing is done by 3rd party, so would think most are accurate ... BUT ... read the tests, speed and conditions of.

 

Our MG ZS is rated ...

NEDC 403 kms (Not Even Damn Close), for 'normal' driving, but saying that, I have actually exceeded a possible 403 kms range, during short distances.

 

WLTP 320 kms, which we consistently exceed, even at highway speeds.  Actually rare we get 320 kms from full charge.  Not that we would ever take it down that low.

 

We top up after 3-4 hrs on Thai roads, if not sooner, as that is long enough for use to be in the car at any one time.

 

The average range is <400 kms, because most people don't need or want to pay for more.   Simple enough.

 

In TH, I've yet to have range anxiety, as more than enough CS, and I've yet the need to Q up at any, and I've driven during long weekends.

 

Your lack of knowledge & experience in mind boggling, but continue to repeat yourself, as I always need a chuckle.

 

Well, you love your car, and that's understandable. However, impartial reviews of the MG ZS electric of 2022 are not that favourable.

 

"The value proposition of the MG ZS EV isn’t well-considered, and it all comes back to range. Promising a 320km WLTP range on a full charge, the MG ZS EV makes non-city travel an anxious pain at best and a poorly planned accident at worst.

 

....charging times are quite slow (generally speaking you’ll often spend about half an hour at a charging station for enough charge to get you to your next stop) and most charging stations only offer two chargers at once (I did have to queue up two out of five times during the trip).

 

The MG ZS EV pushes your range comfort zone to the brink. Offering only 320km WLTP range, the car reports a battery at 100 per cent as 254km range when turned off. I’m not entirely clear why this difference between WLTP range and reported battery range is so dramatically different, but it’s something that I didn’t experience when reviewing the Polestar 2, The Kia EV6 or the Kia Niro EV.

 

Owners of the car have suggested that the range expectation difference could be due to the operating system not being up to date, however when I discussed this with MG, they told me it could be down to the way the car manages battery life. 254km is roughly 80 per cent of the 320km WLTP range this car offers, which is the same percentage the car is meant to lock at to maintain battery life. Once it reaches this point, it can be charged to 100 per cent (or, perhaps more accurately 120 per cent) at a much slower rate, similar to any other EV.

 

If this is the case, then the car didn’t communicate this clearly, as it was reporting 254km… As 100 per cent. Drivers would likely only see the car reach levels of 320km (or above) when having the vehicle on charge for extended periods of time, but this was not something I saw once during my week with the vehicle, aside from when I first picked it up. Regardless, 320km isn’t a lot of wiggle room either.

 

 

And this is absolutely to its detriment. 254km is obviously not a lot and is just under half of what you’d get in a standard Tesla Model 3, Cupra Born, Polestar 2, or Ioniq 5 (cars that, granted, cost over $20,000 more).

This was evident during my trip between the Wallsend NRMA charger (my first charging stop after leaving Sydney) and the Taree Evie charger, about a 162km distance. I charged the car up to about 200km driving range and on arrival, I was down to 12 per cent (31km).

 

This was… Terrifying. I’ve done this exact trip (Wallsend to Taree) in the EV6 and the Polestar, along with the Nissan Leaf, but the MG ZS EV was the first electric car to actually make me anxious about range.

 

https://gizmodo.com.au/2022/10/mg-zs-ev-review/

 

The rest of the review of the MG ZS EV is even worse, to the extent the reviewer says it's only suitable as a side car. Clearly range is still an issue with this car.

[KhunLA]

16 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

A six year pay-back being a tad more. Using your numbers: 

 

I think you need to adjust those numbers  to -0- years, as BEV cost same as ICEV at the moment.

[Cameroni]

37 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

You're comparing different types of Hydrogen. Try comparing it to the electricity used to make Green Hydrogen. That is the key to the whole issue.  You start with electricity and in your HFCEV you end up with electricity to run your electric motor.

 

The scenarios I gave assumed 100% efficiency in the electrolysis process (which is impossible).

 

Look at the cost of running a Hydrogen car in California.  It costs $180 in Hydrogen for a Toyota Mirai, a Tesla Model 3 charging at home can be only $9.  20 times more.  Green Hydrogen is forecast to drop in price by 50% by 2050 so fueling your Toyota Mirai will only be 10 times more expensive than your Tesla. Future costs of hydrogen: a quantitative review - Sustainable Energy & Fuels (RSC Publishing) DOI:10.1039/D4SE00137K

 

This is why people will always choose BEV's.

 

 

 

Sure, but it's clear that hydrogen prices are falling and will continue to fall because of the development of economies of scale on the one hand and technical innovation on the other. Your example above assumes that hydrogen prices will be frozen at that level forever, which is not going to happen. What do you think will happen once Toyota, BMW, Hyundai, Honda et al will start mass producing hydrogen cars? The economies of scale for hydrogen production will expand enormously, making hydrogen much cheaper. That's not even counting the technological innovations.

 

As for range, see the review of the MG ZS electric above to see that range anxiety with electric cars is a very real thing, as this person who reviewed that car for 6 months has clearly shown. And spending half an hour at a charging station is not my idea of fun either.

 

https://gizmodo.com.au/2022/10/mg-zs-ev-review/

[KhunLA]

@fezza while supplies last, they are new cars

 

.

[Yellowtail]

34 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I think you need to adjust those numbers  to -0- years, as BEV cost same as ICEV at the moment.

I used your numbers, that you updated. If there is new pricing on the website, post a link to it and I will update, the same way I did last time you made this very claim, and with your "new" number the payback was longer. 

 

Yes, if I compare a new Supra to the Neta V, the Neta V wins. 

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, Cameroni said:

 

Sure, but it's clear that hydrogen prices are falling and will continue to fall because of the development of economies of scale on the one hand and technical innovation on the other. Your example above assumes that hydrogen prices will be frozen at that level forever, which is not going to happen. What do you think will happen once Toyota, BMW, Hyundai, Honda et al will start mass producing hydrogen cars? The economies of scale for hydrogen production will expand enormously, making hydrogen much cheaper. That's not even counting the technological innovations.

 

As for range, see the review of the MG ZS electric above to see that range anxiety with electric cars is a very real thing, as this person who reviewed that car for 6 months has clearly shown. And spending half an hour at a charging station is not my idea of fun either.

 

https://gizmodo.com.au/2022/10/mg-zs-ev-review/

 

I didn't assume Hydrogen prices would be frozen, you missed the bit in my post about the forecast price of hydrogen in 26 years, it's roughly half of what it is today.

 

Most of what you perceive as problems with EV's, the owners don't see any issue with.  Some of them like lack of power are simply dead wrong.

 

If I undertake a long journey, it's only safe to take a break every few hours, mine will go for about 4.5-5 hours before needing recharging for 30 minutes.  I take that long to pee and sandwich.

 

I would rather fly than drive to Bangkok, so the furthest I will go is Sukhothai or Kamphaeng Phet, I would probably need a 10 minute recharge to be safe.

[KhunLA]

59 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I used your numbers, that you updated. If there is new pricing on the website, post a link to it and I will update, the same way I did last time you made this very claim, and with your "new" number the payback was longer. 

 

Yes, if I compare a new Supra to the Neta V, the Neta V wins. 

The 599k & 699k advert is accurate, and available a MG dealer, while supplies last.  And if past sales #s are any indication, they have more than few sitting around.

 

Wife is at MG dealer now, and she asked about the advert, as my link showed.  599k is pretty hard to beat.  I can't think of any ICEV, 'made in TH',  I'd even consider at 800k, for top end sometimes even more,  over the ZS EV, at 599-699-829 or 949K.   599k or 699k takes any pause for thought away.

 

You really got to be an idiot (yea, name calling) to buy some other ICEV, when you can have the ZS for those prices.  MG4 promo is 699k, I think, or 709K now.  Lucky to get AT at those price with ICEV offerings here.

 

Unless budget challenges and going for some 400k baht POS.  

[Cameroni]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I didn't assume Hydrogen prices would be frozen, you missed the bit in my post about the forecast price of hydrogen in 26 years, it's roughly half of what it is today.

 

Most of what you perceive as problems with EV's, the owners don't see any issue with.  Some of them like lack of power are simply dead wrong.

 

If I undertake a long journey, it's only safe to take a break every few hours, mine will go for about 4.5-5 hours before needing recharging for 30 minutes.  I take that long to pee and sandwich.

 

I would rather fly than drive to Bangkok, so the furthest I will go is Sukhothai or Kamphaeng Phet, I would probably need a 10 minute recharge to be safe.

 

You were parting from the current cost for Hydrogen for a Toyota Mirai. But that cost is likely to go down substantially. So your calculation is not accurate, it does not account for "compounding" of price decreases over the years.

 

I can see that for some people, those who don't drive a lot, especially only short distances in the city, the BEV now can make sense.

 

However, even though I also prefer to fly to Bangkok, I would like the freedom to drive in the North of Thailand for longer than just short trips. I can see a BEV as a sensible side car or second car, but not as a main car. Range is still a problem, as you can see from the review of the MG ZS electric, and half an hour to fuel up, it's still too long.

 

[JBChiangRai]

17 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

You were parting from the current cost for Hydrogen for a Toyota Mirai. But that cost is likely to go down substantially. So your calculation is not accurate, it does not account for "compounding" of price decreases over the years.

 

I can see that for some people, those who don't drive a lot, especially only short distances in the city, the BEV now can make sense.

 

However, even though I also prefer to fly to Bangkok, I would like the freedom to drive in the North of Thailand for longer than just short trips. I can see a BEV as a sensible side car or second car, but not as a main car. Range is still a problem, as you can see from the review of the MG ZS electric, and half an hour to fuel up, it's still too long.

 

 

There isn't anywhere North of Chiang Mai I can't get to without recharging.  And there are lots of fast DC Chargers, 3 on the 118 before Chiang Rai, lots in the city, more in Ban Du, more on the way to the border.

 

People who don't own an EV see a few charging stations and compare them to petrol stations and think there's not enough.  

 

You don't need any charging stations within 150-250km of your home if you charge at night.  It's completely different from owning an ICE.

 

I have only used a fast DC charger once in the last 3 years when I needed to, for 11 minutes.  I have used the BYD ones a few times because the electricity is free, just to iron the kinks out of using them.  My electricity at home is also free because I have solar.

 

 

[leclec]

OP, check out the Mazda CX-8 or Honda CRV, they will suit your needs. If you want bit more luxury and don’t mind used, volvo XC 90 or Merc GLC/BMW X3 Audi Q7 all fall in that 2mi thb range.

 

It’s a pity this thread has gone to the <deleted>s with the EV guys and EV haters posting off topic related answers with their own agendas.

 

FYI, I’m an EV owner but believe that ICE car still has its place depending on individual needs. Stop forcing your opinion onto others, EV guys and EV haters. 

 

This sub has gone down hill with stupid bickering between both camps and needs to stop.  Do it at the EV debate thread. It’s getting annoying.

[GarryP]

41 minutes ago, leclec said:

OP, check out the Mazda CX-8 or Honda CRV, they will suit your needs. If you want bit more luxury and don’t mind used, volvo XC 90 or Merc GLC/BMW X3 Audi Q7 all fall in that 2mi thb range.

 

It’s a pity this thread has gone to the <deleted>s with the EV guys and EV haters posting off topic related answers with their own agendas.

 

FYI, I’m an EV owner but believe that ICE car still has its place depending on individual needs. Stop forcing your opinion onto others, EV guys and EV haters. 

 

This sub has gone down hill with stupid bickering between both camps and needs to stop.  Do it at the EV debate thread. It’s getting annoying.

Totally agree. My next car will be an ICE SUV. That is what I am interested in and what the original poster in this thread wants. I wish posters would answer the original question and not get on their high horses and start banging their effin drums. 

[Yellowtail]

See 'em all, big or small, going all week, ends Sunday.

 

 

 

[LennyW]

20 hours ago, GarryP said:

Totally agree. My next car will be an ICE SUV. That is what I am interested in and what the original poster in this thread wants. I wish posters would answer the original question and not get on their high horses and start banging their effin drums. 

The EV brigade are like the Vegans of the motoring world, always forcing their opinions on others whether asked or not!!

[motdaeng]

14 minutes ago, LennyW said:

The EV brigade are like the Vegans of the motoring world, always forcing their opinions on others whether asked or not!!

 

i would say it differently: some ev owners offer an other option based on their long experience with ice and ev cars ... i haven't seen someone is forcing anyone to buy an ev ... ev's aren't for everyone ... 

 

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, LennyW said:

The EV brigade are like the Vegans of the motoring world, always forcing their opinions on others whether asked or not!!

That is nonsense. As motdaeng says the EV owners on here are constantly saying that EVs are not for everyone.

If someone comes on here and asks for recommendations for an SUV what is wrong with giving recommendations on a new SUV? The first EV owner to respond gave his opinions on ICEV vehicles and didn't even mention EVs. 

The rest of the time the EV owners usually only pipe up when someone comes along with totally wrong (mis)information like "There are no charging stations", "EVs are worthless after xxx years", "They always catch fire" or other nonsense. Then the thread can be hijacked but it is never started by the EV owners in my opinion.

To use your analogy, imagine if someone asked for restaurant recommendations and someone recommended a great Indian vegan or vegetarian place. Fair enough, take it or leave it. But then if all the meat eaters piled in with lies about vegetarianism or veganism they would be right to point it out. A vegan restaurant is still a restaurant. An EV is still a car.

I don't see anyone forcing anything, only the anti-EV brigade forcing their lies down people's throats which may have a negative influence on the OP reflecting on what their choices are.

 

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, motdaeng said:

 

i would say it differently: some ev owners offer an other option based on their long experience with ice and ev cars ... i haven't seen someone is forcing anyone to buy an ev ... ev's aren't for everyone ... 

 

In much the same way as vegans with their long experience eating normally. 

 

Long experience with EVs?