13 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

 

MG cars continue to be British cars, Designed in Birmingham UK.

 

I will agree with you that MG cars as just as much British as Volvo cars are Swedish.

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I will agree with you that MG cars as just as much British as Volvo cars are Swedish.

Thankfully, as I wouldn't own a MG if Brit made or designed.  MG's Bourne House 

 

Does anyone believe anything is done there ?  Maybe an office lease for legal & advertising purposes.   For idiots that buy into the '100 History of Motoring' 

 

 

Ingenlath is a very smart guy. It's market manipulation really, but one can see his point. 

 

I would be very wary of getting an EV, the range issue, the price depreciation. One of Toyota's hybrids or perhaps the hydrogen engine could be better choices.

 

35 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Ingenlath is a very smart guy. It's market manipulation really, but one can see his point. 

 

I would be very wary of getting an EV, the range issue, the price depreciation. One of Toyota's hybrids or perhaps the hydrogen engine could be better choices.

 

We've covered Hydrogen, it's failed, too inefficient and too expensive for fuel.

A post linking to a paywall source has been removed

41 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Ingenlath is a very smart guy. It's market manipulation really, but one can see his point. 

 

I would be very wary of getting an EV, the range issue, the price depreciation. One of Toyota's hybrids or perhaps the hydrogen engine could be better choices.

 

You're joking about depreciation right?

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

You're joking about depreciation right?

Clearly the MG EVs are depreciated much faster than expected given the price cuts, or do you disagree? 

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

We've covered Hydrogen, it's failed, too inefficient and too expensive for fuel.

 

It's not failed at all, Toyota is still developing it and pushing it in a major way as we speak. The Hydrogen ICE could still be the future, rather than the EV.

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

You're joking about depreciation right?

 

Why?

 

"Used electric vehicles are depreciating 10 times faster than their gas-powered counterparts, according to a new study from iSeeCars.com

 

https://spectrumnews1.com/ca/la-west/transportation/2024/03/11/used-evs-depreciate-10x-faster-than-gas-powered-cars#:~:text=Used electric vehicles are depreciating,new study from iSeeCars.com.

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

Clearly the MG EVs are depreciated much faster than expected given the price cuts, or do you disagree? 

 

If you compare any vehicle to price cuts, yes indeed.  If you compare it to current RRP, or any EV that hasn't been subject to price cuts, there is no difference between EV and ICE depreciation.  Those cars that had their price cuts some time ago are holding up identically to ICE.

 

Depreciation is a complete non-issue in Thailand.

 

Just now, Cameroni said:

 

It's not failed at all, Toyota is still developing it and pushing it in a major way as we speak. The Hydrogen ICE could still be the future, rather than the EV.

 

Nonsense, who wants to pay 5 times more for fuel.  Not going to happen.

 

Toyota is doing nothing more than spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt), whether it be Hydrogen, Water Engines, Ammonia Engines, New Revolutionary joint-venture engine efficiency it's all nonsense.  Toyota have experimented with Hydrogen cars in both USA & Norway, both were a failure.

 

If we had H2 filling stations all over Thailand, I would still choose EV every time based on running cost.

15 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Nonsense, who wants to pay 5 times more for fuel.  Not going to happen.

 

Toyota is doing nothing more than spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt), whether it be Hydrogen, Water Engines, Ammonia Engines, New Revolutionary joint-venture engine efficiency it's all nonsense.  Toyota have experimented with Hydrogen cars in both USA & Norway, both were a failure.

 

If we had H2 filling stations all over Thailand, I would still choose EV every time based on running cost.

 

Without wanting to deprecate your engineering credentials, the fact that Toyota is pouring billions into the development of the hydrogen motor rather contradicts your claim that the hydrogen motor will be 5 times more expensive than the EV. Clearly Toyota thinks the hydrogen car is very viable economically, and would not pour billions into developing it otherwise. The previous hydrogen cars were milestones along the way which brought a lot of intel, and yes had some issue, but like I said, Toyota is continuing to develop the hydrogen motor with billions as a priority. So I rather doubt your claim it will be 5 times more expensive than the EV, since then Toyota would not be investing in it.

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

 

Without wanting to deprecate your engineering credentials, the fact that Toyota is pouring billions into the development of the hydrogen motor rather contradicts your claim that the hydrogen motor will be 5 times more expensive than the EV. Clearly Toyota thinks the hydrogen car is very viable economically, and would not pour billions into developing it otherwise. The previous hydrogen cars were milestones along the way which brought a lot of intel, and yes had some issue, but like I said, Toyota is continuing to develop the hydrogen motor with billions as a priority. So I rather doubt your claim it will be 5 times more expensive than the EV, since then Toyota would not be investing in it.

He's talking about the fuel, not the price of the car.

8 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Without wanting to deprecate your engineering credentials, the fact that Toyota is pouring billions into the development of the hydrogen motor rather contradicts your claim that the hydrogen motor will be 5 times more expensive than the EV. Clearly Toyota thinks the hydrogen car is very viable economically, and would not pour billions into developing it otherwise. The previous hydrogen cars were milestones along the way which brought a lot of intel, and yes had some issue, but like I said, Toyota is continuing to develop the hydrogen motor with billions as a priority. So I rather doubt your claim it will be 5 times more expensive than the EV, since then Toyota would not be investing in it.

What Toyota says, they are or will do, is not necessarily what they have done or will do.  IMHO

 

Anything other than fossil fuel vehicles cuts into a huge portion of ICEV makers & big oil's profits, so while would the rush to make them.

 

Actually the opposite, as they seem to have done everything possible to delay alternative types of transportation IMHO

 

Been push hydrogen for 30+ years & yet .... nuff said

 

43 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Clearly the MG EVs are depreciated much faster than expected given the price cuts, or do you disagree? 

More price cuts, due to BYD's competitive offerings and pricing.   Something MG didn't have prior to 2022, and basically no competition of the EVs; BEV, HEV, PHEV at their price point.  That all changed 2+ years ago.

 

And Nissan Leaf doesn't count, as only an idiot would be that, and  at 2M baht, was more than any MG back then anyway.

Just now, KhunLA said:

More price cuts, due to BYD's competitive offerings and pricing.   Something MG didn't have prior to 2022, and basically no competition of the EVs; BEV, HEV, PHEV at their price point.  That all changed 2+ years ago.

 

And Nissan Leaf doesn't count, as only an idiot would be that, and  at 2M baht, was more than any MG back then anyway.

Exactly. And as more players enter the market prices will continue to decline which will cause older cars to depreciate even faster. And when a player drops out it's even worse. 

 

I have notices that pricing on used cars in generally are much more attractive than they were in years past. 

30 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

He's talking about the fuel, not the price of the car.

 

The traditional hydrogen fuel cell had higher costs, however, Toyota are betting on the hydrogen ICE which is different. In addition in Denmark researchers at the University of Copenhagen's Department of Chemistry are developing a new type of catalyst that they hope will decrease the cost of fuel cells. So there will be solutions to this issue. They said the same about electric cars.

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

 

The traditional hydrogen fuel cell had higher costs, however, Toyota are betting on the hydrogen ICE which is different. In addition in Denmark researchers at the University of Copenhagen's Department of Chemistry are developing a new type of catalyst that they hope will decrease the cost of fuel cells. So there will be solutions to this issue. They said the same about electric cars.

 

Read the other day they are also going large on burning ammonia????????

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

 

The traditional hydrogen fuel cell had higher costs, however, Toyota are betting on the hydrogen ICE which is different. In addition in Denmark researchers at the University of Copenhagen's Department of Chemistry are developing a new type of catalyst that they hope will decrease the cost of fuel cells. So there will be solutions to this issue. They said the same about electric cars.

 

With engineering successes the fuel may come down to only be 4 times more expensive than fueling a BEV.

 

Do you seriously think people will go for that?

 

 

53 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

If you compare any vehicle to price cuts, yes indeed.  If you compare it to current RRP, or any EV that hasn't been subject to price cuts, there is no difference between EV and ICE depreciation.  Those cars that had their price cuts some time ago are holding up identically to ICE.

 

Depreciation is a complete non-issue in Thailand.

 

 

Nonsense, who wants to pay 5 times more for fuel.  Not going to happen.

 

Toyota is doing nothing more than spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt), whether it be Hydrogen, Water Engines, Ammonia Engines, New Revolutionary joint-venture engine efficiency it's all nonsense.  Toyota have experimented with Hydrogen cars in both USA & Norway, both were a failure.

 

If we had H2 filling stations all over Thailand, I would still choose EV every time based on running cost.

Clearly EV Depreciation is a Major issue in Thailand as you told MG that you wanted a

12 months price protection in writing or they can stick their Cyberster where the sun doesn't shine

https://aseannow.com/topic/1310792-byd-seal-tips-tricks-and-help/page/36/#comment-19060935

If EV Depreciation is a non-issue in Thailand no need for a 12 month price protection agreeement

 

1 minute ago, Will B Good said:

 

Read the other day they are also going large on burning ammonia????????

 

Toyota say they are going on all new fads, don't buy a car now as we have a better solution in the future.

 

It's Mythware.

Just now, vinny41 said:

Clearly EV Depreciation is a Major issue in Thailand as you told MG that you wanted a

12 months price protection in writing or they can stick their Cyberster where the sun doesn't shine

https://aseannow.com/topic/1310792-byd-seal-tips-tricks-and-help/page/36/#comment-19060935

If EV Depreciation is a non-issue in Thailand no need for a 12 month price protection agreeement

 

 

Vinny, you are confusing price reduction with depreciation.  Do you need a lesson in the difference?

30 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

What Toyota says, they are or will do, is not necessarily what they have done or will do.  IMHO

 

Anything other than fossil fuel vehicles cuts into a huge portion of ICEV makers & big oil's profits, so while would the rush to make them.

 

Actually the opposite, as they seem to have done everything possible to delay alternative types of transportation IMHO

 

Been push hydrogen for 30+ years & yet .... nuff said

 

 

No, not "nuff said". Of course such major innovations take decades to bring to fruition. However, they are very serious about pushing the hydrogen ICE:

 

"Toyota Is Placing Huge Bets On Hydrogen At Its U.S. Plants

 

Toyota has dedicated various US facilities to testing and perfecting hydrogen-powered cars.

With Toyota rapidly moving in the EV, PHEV, and hydrogen direction, it's worth noting that some of its U.S. factories will see fuel cell batteries manufactured inside of them. According to a press release from Toyota, a dedicated line at Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky (TMMK) will begin assembling integrated dual fuel cell (FC) modules destined for use in hydrogen-powered, heavy-duty commercial trucks. This is likely to spread to other US and global facilities as Toyota ramps up hydrogen production."

 

And it's not just Toyota either. They've joined forces with many other multi-national companies:

 

"Members of the council, such as Air Liquide, Alstom, BMW, Daimler, Shell, and Toyota, have collectively committed $5 billion for hydrogen-related investments over the next five years."

 

https://www.topspeed.com/toyotas-hydrogen-combustion-engine-has-the-potential-to-make-evs-obsolete/

 

They hydrogen engine has way too many advantages not to be built.

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

With engineering successes the fuel may come down to only be 4 times more expensive than fueling a BEV.

 

Do you seriously think people will go for that?

 

 

 

I seriously think your crystal ball to determine the cost of future hydrogen car fuel is not as capable as you may think.

5 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

No, not "nuff said". Of course such major innovations take decades to bring to fruition. However, they are very serious about pushing the hydrogen ICE:

 

"Toyota Is Placing Huge Bets On Hydrogen At Its U.S. Plants

 

Toyota has dedicated various US facilities to testing and perfecting hydrogen-powered cars.

With Toyota rapidly moving in the EV, PHEV, and hydrogen direction, it's worth noting that some of its U.S. factories will see fuel cell batteries manufactured inside of them. According to a press release from Toyota, a dedicated line at Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky (TMMK) will begin assembling integrated dual fuel cell (FC) modules destined for use in hydrogen-powered, heavy-duty commercial trucks. This is likely to spread to other US and global facilities as Toyota ramps up hydrogen production."

 

And it's not just Toyota either. They've joined forces with many other multi-national companies:

 

"Members of the council, such as Air Liquide, Alstom, BMW, Daimler, Shell, and Toyota, have collectively committed $5 billion for hydrogen-related investments over the next five years."

 

https://www.topspeed.com/toyotas-hydrogen-combustion-engine-has-the-potential-to-make-evs-obsolete/

 

They hydrogen engine has way too many advantages not to be built.

 

It has glaring disadvantages that will make it a "second-choice", EV being first choice.

 

Fuel cost for one.

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

It has glaring disadvantages that will make it a "second-choice", EV being first choice.

 

Fuel cost for one.

 

There are too many variables for you to make such definite statements on fuel costs for hydrogen cars in the future.

 

I admire your confidence, but  it is severely misplaced.

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Vinny, you are confusing price reduction with depreciation.  Do you need a lesson in the difference?

when you buy any vehicle as soon as you take it out of the showroom it loses a % of its value

when Brands decided to reduced the price of their vehicles due to either oversupply or lack of interest by the end buyer that price reduction increases the depreciation of the vehicle that someone purchased at a higher price

How many people on this forum that purchased a MG ZS EV in 2021 when it was priced at

B1.19 million baht would be happy to see the priced reduced to B599,000 price reduction of 49.6%

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

 

I seriously think your crystal ball to determine the cost of future hydrogen car fuel is not as capable as you may think.

 

It's not a case of guessing the future, it's a case of science.

 

All the experts agree that electrolysing water is the way to go.

 

So we start with water and break the bonds produce 2 of H₂ and 1 of O₂

33% of that energy is wasted producing O₂

 

We then compress it (using electricity) which is expensive and produces a lot of waste heat.

 

We transport it all over the country, presumably in a H₂ powered truck.

 

We then pump it into storage tanks at the fuel station (using electricity).

 

We then compress it (using electricity) and pump it into cars.

 

The cars either use an ICE converted to H₂ 

75% wasted energy

 

Or, we use it in a fuel cell car 

40% to 60% wasted, a lot of it heat.

 

Some of these inefficiencies can be optimised, some are scientific limits like 33% wasted in electrolysis producing Oxygen.

 

It is mathematically impossible to get anywhere near the efficiency of a BEV, and let's not forget, HFCEV vehicles still have Lithium batteries because of issues with changing the output of a fuel-cell on the fly.

 

For HFCEV to succeed, we will have both BEV's and HFCEV's sold alongside each other.  Because of the differential in running costs, the HFCEV's will have to be sold cheaper than the BEV's.

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

when you buy any vehicle as soon as you take it out of the showroom it loses a % of its value

when Brands decided to reduced the price of their vehicles due to either oversupply or lack of interest by the end buyer that price reduction increases the depreciation of the vehicle that someone purchased at a higher price

How many people on this forum that purchased a MG ZS EV in 2021 when it was priced at

B1.19 million baht would be happy to see the priced reduced to B599,000 price reduction of 49.6%

 

So you do understand the difference between price reduction and depreciation.

 

If we pose the question "Do BEV's depreciate faster than ICE in Thailand?" the answer to that is a qualified NO.  I say qualified because unless the new price has been discounted subsequently, the depreciation is the same.

39 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Exactly. And as more players enter the market prices will continue to decline which will cause older cars to depreciate even faster. And when a player drops out it's even worse. 

 

I have notices that pricing on used cars in generally are much more attractive than they were in years past. 

What's going to happen to the price of ICEV when most turn to BEV for the savings, and or gov't restriction of sales ?   

 

Just the lower cost of BEV production, being passed onto the consumer, is killing the ICEV market.  You really have to think long and hard (if doing research) before buying an over priced, under performing, more expensive to operate & maintain ICEV vs BEV.

 

I'm being very kind (no name calling), as I have different adjective for those, instead of 'needing to think hard'... 

 

I would never consider another ICEV ... I've seen the light, straight from a higher power 

 

16 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

It's not a case of guessing the future, it's a case of science.

 

 

Yes, you are guessing. About the future. There is a well known book published in 1910, where they lament how harnessing solar energy is sadly economically unviable. Today whole governments bet on solar energy.

 

You simply don't know what the science in 10 years, 20 years or 30 years will look like.