paying taxes in thailand as an american

[EVENKEEL]

On 8/31/2024 at 1:35 PM, redwood1 said:

 

This has to be the most bazaar thing I have seen in my entire life here.....

 

Like who is a Foreigner?

 

Are the Chinese, Japanese , Korean, Russian, Indian expats Foreigners?

 

I guess not, because they dont seem to give a rats azz about any of this tax nonsense......Folks no one but western expats are going to lift a finger to produce document forms tax records bla bla .....

 

But for some strange reason There seem to be loads of retired western farang practically beating down the door at the tax office and demanding that they be given a tax number and insisting come hell or high water they be allowed to pay taxes...

 

The whole thing is beyond strange.......lol

 

The fact that almost no Thais pay taxes. does not bother these desperate to pay taxes expats at all.......

 

 

It is an odd phenomena. Truly unexplainable.

[topt]

9 hours ago, JustinCredible said:

 

I was told by the Revenue Department, just last week, that if you pay tax on the money you bring into Thailand, by Law, you will still be required to submit a Tax Return, together with a Certificate from your home country confirming that you have already paid the Tax.  

When I asked how they would know about money coming into Thailand they said that you would also need to submit a 12 month Thai Bank statement. 

They went on to say that there WILL be additional checks om ALL foreigners. They are currently in discussions with both Thai Banks and Immigration.

 

The above is NOT scaremongering, it is a genuine report of my conversations with the Revenue Office.

And to be clear exactly which Tax office was this ?

[topt]

10 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

The minute ONE person goes to court to say I am sending savings from one bank to another the whole thing will fall apart.  Housing industry will certainly crash immediately if when you send 10 million to buy a house 15% is stolen from you.

 

I would fully support Thailand enforcing the issue on people being paid by a company they work for that is registered abroad and has NOT has any form of tax put on the income. Otherwise its a non starter in my opinion.

 

Imagine telling thais that when they transfer money from one thai bank to another they must pay a 15% tax. 

Please explain where the 15% figure comes from?

 

I am also curious why a Brit is suddenly "contributing" to a tax thread when the title is specifically about an "American"...

[Skeptic7]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:49 PM, EVENKEEL said:

Don't worry till a tax man knocks on your door. Where's that kicking a dead horse emoji when you need it.

My strategy exactly...door knock or other forcing of my hand. 

_{Here ya go}

[Presnock]

9 hours ago, topt said:

And to be clear exactly which Tax office was this ?

I as an American often give my opinion about an issue on this forum for Brits, Aussies, Germans, etalia as this is an open forum and I am a member and welcome any info on interesting issues, especial those issues that could affect all expats.   I especially liked this addition by a "Brit" (I guess) as it could affect all of us and I too would welcome the response as to what RD office advised that we might ALL be under the microscope for taxation purposes.

[Mike Teavee]

2 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I as an American often give my opinion about an issue on this forum for Brits, Aussies, Germans, etalia as this is an open forum and I am a member and welcome any info on interesting issues, especial those issues that could affect all expats.   I especially liked this addition by a "Brit" (I guess) as it could affect all of us and I too would welcome the response as to what RD office advised that we might ALL be under the microscope for taxation purposes.

If they implement NIT (Negative income Tax) then all Thais who earn more than 1THB will be required to file a Tax return so I can see how Expats could get caught up in this & also be expected to File a return (I can't see them giving us any extra money if we're on a very low income!). 

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2855752/a-closer-inspection-of-negative-income-tax

If the NIT system were to be implemented in Thailand, the tax filing requirements under Section 56 of the Revenue Code require amendment. The amendment should state that anyone earning even one baht must file a tax form, ensuring that everyone enters the tax system, while granting the Revenue Department the legal authority to verify individuals' income.

[statman78]

17 hours ago, flexomike said:

Can you explain how the DTA was claimed on your return. Are you also working in Thailand where you are required to pay taxes. My money transfers this year were entirely from direct social security deposits to my Bangkok Bank account. Really hope they come up with a statement that they will not be taxing US Social Security deposits.

It has always been the case where US Social Security money is not subject to tax in Thailand.  This has not changed.  

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, statman78 said:

It has always been the case where US Social Security money is not subject to tax in Thailand.  This has not changed.  

Thai national recipients of US SSc who reside in Thailand are taxable on that income, just as non-US citizens who ae recipients of US SSc are when they reside in their home country and that country's DTA doesn't prevent taxation. Which is a slightly odd scenario because the US/Thai DTA specifies SSc is not taxable and DTA rules take precedent over national tax rules.

[Presnock]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Thai national recipients of US SSc who reside in Thailand are taxable on that income, just as non-US citizens who ae recipients of US SSc are when they reside in their home country and that country's DTA doesn't prevent taxation. Which is a slightly odd scenario because the US/Thai DTA specifies SSc is not taxable and DTA rules take precedent over national tax rules.

 

18 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Thai national recipients of US SSc who reside in Thailand are taxable on that income, just as non-US citizens who ae recipients of US SSc are when they reside in their home country and that country's DTA doesn't prevent taxation. Which is a slightly odd scenario because the US/Thai DTA specifies SSc is not taxable and DTA rules take precedent over national tax rules.

Especially since in the DTA, the Article 21 just following the SS Article 20, specifically mentions that US govt pensions could be taxed by Thailand if the recipient is a Thai tax-resident and also a Thai native.  This is one question that I am sure will be thought about by the Thai Revenue Department.

[fceligoj]

For all americans, you may want to check out the Double Taxation Agreement between the USA and Thailand, interpretation by HLB Thailand (a part of HLB International.)  For me, I am paying specific attention to Article 20 Pension and Social Security Payments and the exmples they have presented,  They assess all Articles of the Agreement if you are interested.

 

https://www.hlbthai.com/double-tax-agreement-between-the-united-states-of-america-and-thailand-including-examples/#article-20

 

[BKKKevin]

I have applied to the SSA to have my social security direct deposited to my Bangkok Bank account thru the IID system… This gives me a clean easily provable stream of incoming cash that I can say is not taxable due to treaty obligations… 

Then it’s my understanding that one get a 60k personal deduction, a 190k 65yo+ deduction and the first 150k has a tax rate of zero… That’s 410,000 I can transfer from my personal US account with no tax due… Anything above that I plan on transferring to my Thai partners bank account as Thai tax law allows for a lifetime 10 million baht gift tax exemption…

 

As to whether I will be required to file a tax return here… I don’t see this happening any time soon… NO Thai government entity is capable of administering the setup of a tax ID and processing a tax return for several hundred thousand expats from 50 different countries…

 

Just look at how well the administrate the online 90 day reporting… 

[statman78]

8 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Thai national recipients of US SSc who reside in Thailand are taxable on that income, just as non-US citizens who ae recipients of US SSc are when they reside in their home country and that country's DTA doesn't prevent taxation. Which is a slightly odd scenario because the US/Thai DTA specifies SSc is not taxable and DTA rules take precedent over national tax rules.

If I understand you correctly, since I am a US citizen living in Thailand my US Social Security benefits will not be taxed in Thailand.  This has always been my understanding and was confirmed by my tax accountant located in Bangkok.  However, when I pass away and my Thai wife gets survivor benefits does this mean she would be taxed?

[chiang mai]

34 minutes ago, statman78 said:

If I understand you correctly, since I am a US citizen living in Thailand my US Social Security benefits will not be taxed in Thailand.  This has always been my understanding and was confirmed by my tax accountant located in Bangkok.  However, when I pass away and my Thai wife gets survivor benefits does this mean she would be taxed?

If your wife is not a US citizen and is in receipt of US SSc, it will be taxable. However, I cannot be certain about Survivor Benefits which could be different....don't know.

[JohnnyBD]

2 hours ago, statman78 said:

If I understand you correctly, since I am a US citizen living in Thailand my US Social Security benefits will not be taxed in Thailand.  This has always been my understanding and was confirmed by my tax accountant located in Bangkok.  However, when I pass away and my Thai wife gets survivor benefits does this mean she would be taxed?

Just curious. Did your Thai wife live in the US for a total of 5 years or more? When I started my SS in 2023, I asked the SSA, and they told me my Thai wife would need to live in the US for a cumulative total of 5 years before she would qualify for SS spousal or survivor benefits. I'm just wondering if the rules changed or whether what they told me was incorrect?

[BKKKevin]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

If your wife is not a US citizen and is in receipt of US SSc, it will be taxable. However, I cannot be certain about Survivor Benefits which could be different....don't know.

Also I think your spouse would have to reside in the US to receive benefits…

 

https://creativeplanning.com/international/insights/financial-planning/foreign-spouse-social-security/

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, BKKKevin said:

Then it’s my understanding that one get a 60k personal deduction, a 190k 65yo+ deduction and the first 150k has a tax rate of zero… That’s 410,000 I can transfer from my personal US account with no tax due… Anything above that I plan on transferring to my Thai partners bank account as Thai tax law allows for a lifetime 10 million baht gift tax exemption…

You have seriously underestimated the amount you can transfer without paying tax.

Also if you are married to your partner it is 20 million, you will need the correct paperwork for any gift.

[JimTripper]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:00 PM, BananaBandit said:

So, in the event that the Thai authorities start enforcing this stuff, how will they know the amount that we must pay?

 

Will they just tell us to state a number, or will they ask to see the U.S. tax returns?

Probably more like tracking deposits in Thai banks, deposits for retirement visa's, moving money in to buy property, etc. If you don't have a bank account here you're probably safe for now.

[chiang mai]

17 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

Probably more like tracking deposits in Thai banks, deposits for retirement visa's, moving money in to buy property, etc. If you don't have a bank account here you're probably safe for now.

The TRD is highly unlikely to be interested in tracking deposits for retirement visa's but large sums for property purchase may well attract at least a glance (they did with me nearly 20 years ago when I was asked by BOT what I was doing bri9ning 6 mill. into Thailand).

 

But none of those things should prevent people from opening bank accounts here or important reasonable amounts of money to live on, those people are in no way targets. Remember, this rule change was enacted to capture Thai's investing offshore, not foreign retirees.

[BKKKevin]

11 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You have seriously underestimated the amount you can transfer without paying tax.

Also if you are married to your partner it is 20 million, you will need the correct paperwork for any gift.

Yes, 20 million for married spouse... But I'm not married to my Thai partner so 10 million... 

 

What other tax free transfer options have I underestimated?

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, BKKKevin said:

Yes, 20 million for married spouse... But I'm not married to my Thai partner so 10 million... 

 

What other tax free transfer options have I underestimated?

There is another deduction you can take for remitting pension income, 50% of the value of the remittance per year, a maximum of 100k. If you have Thai life insurance or medical insurance, those costs are deductible. Your total tax free income should be at least 500k A more complete list of all the TEDA is linked below:

 

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/deductions

 

or

 

 https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

[Mike Teavee]

19 minutes ago, BKKKevin said:

Yes, 20 million for married spouse... But I'm not married to my Thai partner so 10 million... 

 

What other tax free transfer options have I underestimated?

It's 10 Million per year (Not lifetime allowance) BUT the burden of proof for sending Gifts to a non-relative/spouse is likely to be much higher (i.e. you will likely need a reason to send the Gift like a significant date/event etc...)

 

Edit: Do note that there are a lot of discussions in the other Tax threads where some guys (& a number of the Tax "Experts") believe that you (as the "Gifter") could still be liable for Income Tax on the Remittance so the safest approach is to make the Gift outside of Thailand and then have your Partner remit the money to themselves.... I know, not easy if your partner doesn't have a Bank Account in your home country. 

[chiang mai]

I think it's highly probable that Gift Tax rules may be amended, if as guessed there is a sudden surge in using these tax free gifts. Even 10 mill per year is a ridiculously high number compared to the average income.

[DrPhibes]

On 8/31/2024 at 1:54 PM, CMBob said:

I don't question that somebody at the RD may have told you that (or that's what you understood they were saying). however, let's use our brains to understand how this will work per what you say you were told (and I'll use 2024 tax year as an example and presume you're a US citizen).

(1)  The Thai tax return would be due to be filed by March 31, 2025.

(2)  The US tax return for an expat isn't due to be filed until June 15th, 2025 (although one has the right to file early, let's say by April 15th, 2025).

(3)  If you're real lucky, obtaining a tax clearance certificate (a/k/a Tax Compliance Report) from the IRS would take 6-12 months after you've filed and paid taxes involving your 2024 return.

(4)  It'll be just a wee bit difficult (read: impossible) to have an IRS tax clearance certificate available when you file your Thai tax return.

 

Tax Compliance Letter 6201 is available in your IRS online account approx 7-10 business days after your return or payment is processed (not submission date).  It does not show your income but does show if you still have tax due or making payments or have outstanding payments from past years.  Does show the last 6 years of missing returns or late filed returns.

 

If you wish to learn more:

 

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/tax-compliance-report

[BKKKevin]

41 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I think it's highly probable that Gift Tax rules may be amended, if as guessed there is a sudden surge in using these tax free gifts. Even 10 mill per year is a ridiculously high number compared to the average income.

Don’t underestimate the political power of the Thai elite who have used this tax rule to the limit for years…

[atpeace]

On 8/31/2024 at 8:35 PM, EVENKEEL said:

It is an odd phenomena. Truly unexplainable.

No, they aren't banging on any doors but simply scared of their own shadows.  They are shivering behind their keyboards imagining terrible outcomes and relying on tax experts here on AseanNow-LOL. 

 

 Since October last year they have been chasing their tails trying to find answers.  It is extremely entertaining and even Mike Lister, the ring master seems to have thrown in the towel.  The mob was even starting to turn on him when he started admitting there is no new info to obtain and just calmly wait and see.

 

I'm only hoping the Thai tax authorities make another ambiguous statement that is poorly reported on some outlet.  These threads are less entertaining because the nutters have lost their position of power but still fun.

[atpeace]

1 hour ago, DrPhibes said:

Tax Compliance Letter 6201 is available in your IRS online account approx 7-10 business days after your return or payment is processed (not submission date).  It does not show your income but does show if you still have tax due or making payments or have outstanding payments from past years.  Does show the last 6 years of missing returns or late filed returns.

 

If you wish to learn more:

 

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/tax-compliance-report

So it provides no useful info? Wouldn't they want info on taxes paid?  A new Thai tax law that requires filing in your home country is a new concept and form 6201 would meet this new requirement. Back to the real world....

[BKKKevin]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

I think it's highly probable that Gift Tax rules may be amended, if as guessed there is a sudden surge in using these tax free gifts. Even 10 mill per year is a ridiculously high number compared to the average income.

How many of you have told your wives they are allowed 20 million a year in gifts tax free?.. 😂

[statman78]

13 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just curious. Did your Thai wife live in the US for a total of 5 years or more? When I started my SS in 2023, I asked the SSA, and they told me my Thai wife would need to live in the US for a cumulative total of 5 years before she would qualify for SS spousal or survivor benefits. I'm just wondering if the rules changed or whether what they told me was incorrect?

I haven’t checked into the requirements but my wife lived in the US for 9 years and became a US citizen.  Unfortunately she did not work long enough to qualify for her own benefits even though she paid into the system.  I believe that a person needs to pay into the system for 40 quarters.

[statman78]

13 hours ago, BKKKevin said:

Also I think your spouse would have to reside in the US to receive benefits…

 

https://creativeplanning.com/international/insights/financial-planning/foreign-spouse-social-security/

Thanks for the link. Very informative.  It looks like my wife should be able to receive survivor benefits.  We were married and lived in the US for 9 years.  Also, she became a US citizen during that time.  Hopefully she doesn’t need to collect survivor benefits for a long time. 

[EVENKEEL]

36 minutes ago, atpeace said:

No, they aren't banging on any doors but simply scared of their own shadows.  They are shivering behind their keyboards imagining terrible outcomes and relying on tax experts here on AseanNow-LOL. 

 

 Since October last year they have been chasing their tails trying to find answers.  It is extremely entertaining and even Mike Lister, the ring master seems to have thrown in the towel.  The mob was even starting to turn on him when he started admitting there is no new info to obtain and just calmly wait and see.

 

I'm only hoping the Thai tax authorities make another ambiguous statement that is poorly reported on some outlet.  These threads are less entertaining because the nutters have lost their position of power but still fun.

The grand master instigated the fear. The sheep loved it.