UK Considers Sending Prisoners to Estonia to Ease Overcrowding Crisis

[MicroB]

5 hours ago, mrfill said:

You cannot determine if a migrant is illegal until they are processed. Once processing is done, if the application fails, the applicant can be deported without problem (as has been happening a lot more recently owing to the increase in number of processors). The boats only started big time when the previous government closed all the 'safe routes' (where applicants were processed off shore) and reduced drastically the number of processors. This stupidity meant it took anything up to 3 years to process instead of a few weeks and led to putting applicants in closed hotels at huge expense. With faster processing and safe routes open,  there would be no need to line the hoteliers pockets handsomely as happens now. The UK still needs people to work in the NHS, fruit & veg picking, care workers and hospitality staff - all traditionally done by migrant workers - and it needs fewer people believing that the UK can supply all its employment needs. It hasn't managed that for 5 centuries and idiotic and bigoted thinking won't change that.

 

For those arriving by boat, the vast majority are picked up to enter the system. But the numbers of illegal immigrants (people in the UK who should not be here) is much much larger. Its estimated to be 300-600,000, mosrly working in the black economy, completely unknown to the State. Home Office research indicates most of them are visa overstayers, which will include people who have made a simple (innocent) error in their dates. 11,000 are picked up, alive or dead, as stowaways in trucks. Many more are not detected, The Mo Robinson case showed the role of gangs, often with links to organised crime and Irish Nationalist/Loyalist terrorism, the numbers. These people are not going on the dole, drawing benefits. They are going to work in slave sweat shops, probably mostly drugs production.

 

Identifying them would be easily achieved through issuance of compulsory national ID, coupled with intrusive inspection, such as raids in workplaces, check points in railway stations, bus stops, and vehicular inspections of the sort Northern Ireland had. That might pick up 500,000 people quite quickly (compared to the current 100,000 in prison). But where to house them? Bexhill on Sea

 

 

[JonnyF]

Outsourcing the gulag.

 

2 tier Keir is getting a bit over excited.  Calm down son.

[stoner]

23 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Oh a personal attack.

 

Now that’s new.

 

SaYs Mr coy cheap shot king.

[MicroB]

7 hours ago, Homburg said:

Hey Shabana Mahmood, import the World's criminals and the prisons fill up. Who'd have thought?  

 

England/Wales population that are foreign born: 16.8%

 

Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/thechangingpictureoflongterminternationalmigrationenglandandwales/census2021

 

UK prison population that is foreign born:  11.9%

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/66784f50a7a18c1aa1a00efe/Prison-population-31-Mar-2024.ods

 

 

Ergo, a Foreigner in the UK is less likely to be a criminal than a Briton

 

Given current statistics, even if you removed 16.8% of the UK population, because they were born outside of the UK, the prisons would still fill up.

[pegman]

Why not send them Down Under like the old days?

[James9999]

14 hours ago, daveAustin said:

For such a small place that has had a massive impact on the world today (looking to the positives), the UK has regressed into one of the most depressingly pathetic places on the planet... at the behest of its own people no less. Its future does not look good.

Yes quite a 5h1te hole now. I don't understand why so many migrants wants to come here.

[James9999]

8 hours ago, MicroB said:

 

 But the numbers of illegal immigrants (people in the UK who should not be here) is much much larger. Its estimated to be 300-600,000,

 

 

More like 800,000 to 1.2 million. https://jcwi.org.uk/resource/who-are-the-uks-undocumented-population/

[Chomper Higgot]

10 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

No attack. 

 

Just answering your previous comment.

 

If there is a link to explain your lack of comprehension, I must have missed it.

 

Sorry about that.

Oh.

[Chomper Higgot]

I wonder if the minority Opposition party will put a stop to this.

 

I hear it’s a thing.

 

 

[john donson]

why not australia ? the original prison dump

 

make them work and sweat those damn serial criminals

 

why not a muslim country for those of that belief, gaza?

[Doctor Tom]

11 hours ago, MicroB said:

 

Many were also sent to North America to work the tobacco plantations.

Not a fan of humour then? 

[proton]

UK has about 10k foreign nationals in prison out of 95k. It would make more sense to send all these criminals back home. Most are from Albania, Poland and of course, Nigeria and Pakistan.

Edited September 8 by proton

[shackleton]

Bring back hanging plus some  stiffer sentences for serious crimes 

The Country has gone to Woke same with migrants and Illegals 

Send them back to where they came from France  is looking good 

For starters 😱

[josephbloggs]

6 minutes ago, shackleton said:

Send them back to where they came from France  is looking good 

For starters 😱

You mean like we used to be able to do when we were a member of the EU?

[Red Forever]

On 9/7/2024 at 2:05 PM, youreavinalaff said:

Agreed.

 

The current "they" were the ones who constantly derailed the Rwanda project. Finally cancelling it without putting any other project in its place.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The Rwanda fiasco would have dealt with 200 asylum seekers per year. Labour were correct in scrapping this lunacy.

The lack of prison space is firmly the fault of the Tories ripping up our social infrastructure. 

Nice try at deflection.

[youreavinalaff]

8 minutes ago, Red Forever said:

You're comparing apples and oranges. The Rwanda fiasco would have dealt with 200 asylum seekers per year. Labour were correct in scrapping this lunacy.

The lack of prison space is firmly the fault of the Tories ripping up our social infrastructure. 

Nice try at deflection.

Illegal immigration will never be stopped completely.

 

The idea is to create deterrents. Rwanda was one. As was witnessed by immigrants fleeing to ROI on the day the plan was passed.

 

Have you not seen Germany's latest plans?

 

The lack of prison space is down to the fact too many people are getting caught breaking the law. That's the decision of the law breakers.

 

No deflection. Just a comment.

Edited September 8 by youreavinalaff

[Will B Good]

 

 

 

 

Shame Russia isn't an option.....then off to the front.

[MicroB]

9 hours ago, James9999 said:

More like 800,000 to 1.2 million. https://jcwi.org.uk/resource/who-are-the-uks-undocumented-population/

 

Yeah, I was only counting adults. Your number includes children of these immigrants.

 

All the more reason to instigate ID cards and government checkpoints, don't you think? Bitte papiere. Or, you regularise them, and offer an amnest, changing them from illegal migrants into taxpayers.

Edited September 8 by MicroB

[youreavinalaff]

2 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

You mean like we used to be able to do when we were a member of the EU?

No.

[Will B Good]

2 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

You mean like we used to be able to do when we were a member of the EU?

 

 

Back of the net.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

There is one likely problem with this idea.

 

Like the failed ‘Rwanda scheme’ it would almost certainly wind up being an exchange program, though hopefully not with the £hundreds of millions price tag attached.

 

Foreign prisoners deported from the UK to serve their time in their home country and British prisoners overseas sent back to Blighty in exchange.

 

I do however think, sentencing guidelines should be amended to include automatic ‘deportation from prison’ with no right of return for crimes of violence and other serious criminal convictions.

 

[MicroB]

6 hours ago, proton said:

UK has about 10k foreign nationals in prison out of 95k. It would make more sense to send all these criminals back home. Most are from Albania, Poland and of course, Nigeria and Pakistan.

 

You can add another 10,000 if you add in those who are automatically Irish by parentage, and instigate laws stripping criminals of dual citizenship.

 

The Chief Inspector of Borders was critical of the previous government over removal of foreign offenders.

 

Quote

 

The Home Office frequently cites its determination to remove foreign national offenders (FNOs) from

the country, pointing to its efforts to do so as one of the key ways it works to keep the public safe.

I indicated my intention to examine Home Office operations to effect the removal of FNOs in my

inspection plan for 2022 to 2023, after the topic was suggested to me by ministers.

 

 

.....

My inspection found FNORC to be a large and complex operation which lacked the ability to track and

monitor the progression of cases, from initial referral to decision outcome. Staff did not have a clear

sense of priorities, and there was a disproportionate focus on managing cases, rather than making

decisions and progressing the removal of FNOs.

Of particular concern was the situation regarding data and management information, with staff

working from unwieldy local spreadsheets rather than a reliable central database that meets the needs

of the business area. This is something that the ICIBI has repeatedly encountered and commented on

in previous reports. It is therefore unsurprising that the Home Office was unable to provide consistent

data sets or complete evidence returns for this inspection. It is unacceptable that the department

cannot produce clear and reliable data on the FNOs for whom it is responsible.

To provide just one illustration of the shortcomings of the data being used to manage criminal

casework, this inspection found that the only way for the Home Office to identify a nationality cohort

awaiting deportation was to manually trawl through multiple spreadsheets. For an operation of this size

to be run like this is unacceptable. For any operation to be effective, there needs to be a single version

of the truth, and for FNOs it does not exist. Worryingly, I found no evidence of a strategy to build one.

Moreover, there is insufficient information to effectively identify which FNOs could be removed from

the country today. The Home Office does not have an overarching view of its caseworking system.

In order to establish the current state of a particular case, case owners have to manually interrogate

individual case records. This is no way to run a government department.

 

 

Who was Home Secretary during the inspection period? Suella Braverman. In fact, the inspection covered the second period of her time in office, after she got her job back after being sacked for sending Restricted and above documents using a personal email address (anyone else would not have gotten their jobs, and usually placed on a 12 month investigation, looking at all aspects of their lives and their families' lives. I know of one poor chap at a defence company who took his laptop home to work on a project over a weekend. His laptop was stolen while he slept. He lost his job, house,and was continually threatened during the investigation, with 30 years. Plus all his familiy, extended and immediate, and neighbours were investigated into their beliefs and political affiliations). She spent her time cobbling up a scheme to remove 200 our of 70,000 refugee claimants  to an African country.

 

So the UK has existing processes and legislation to remove offenders, but the previous government did not think it was a high priority, evidenced by the resources allocated.

 

 

[Chris Daley]

On 9/7/2024 at 7:41 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

Not a bad idea, but perhaps start by repatriating some of the thousands of foreigners in UK prisons.

 

Asking Albania, Poland Romania and Ireland to take care of some of their criminal citizens would put a dent in the over UK Prisons overcrowding problem.

 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/872023/leading-nationalities-of-foreign-prisoners-in-england-and-wales/

 

What a well trained sheep.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, Chris Daley said:

 

What a well trained sheep.

What?

 

[MicroB]

36 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Illegal immigration will never be stopped completely.

 

The idea is to create deterrents. Rwanda was one. As was witnessed by immigrants fleeing to ROI on the day the plan was passed.

 

Have you not seen Germany's latest plans?

 

The lack of prison space is down to the fact too many people are getting caught breaking the law. That's the decision of the law breakers.

 

No deflection. Just a comment.

 

People will always dream of a better life somewhere else in the world. Which is why this forum exists, and why there is so much discussion about the ins and outs of the Thai immigration system, including on occasion, discussion on how to game the process, tax evasion, bordering criminality.

 

The case of Maurice (Mo) Robinson illustrated the complex nature of the criminal gangs involved. Mo Robinson was the trucker found in Essex with a container full of dead  Vietnamese in October 2019. After crossing from Belgium, Robinson was supposed to proceed to a truck stop, and meet men in various cars to take away his load of people.

 

Gangs in Vietnam arranged for these people to travel to Europe, and had obtained for many, actual visas. Some got study visas in Poland. Others worked as fruit pickers in Hungary. They were instructed to proceed to a farm outside of Paris. Some had told worried relatives back home, that they were using a "VIP Package", which wouldn't involve going in the back of a lorry, and they could pay the £10,000-20,000 fee upon arrival in the UK. The men convicted in the UK were from Romania, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. It involved men who were well known in the Loyalist community and men known from the Republican side. It involved British truck companies who register their trucks in Bulgaria to avoid UK MOT and insurance requirements. So far, while there are Vietnamese gangs, in Vietnam and in the UK, related to this particular car, none have been convicted yet, though I see reports of various Vietnamese involved in other cases being sentenced.

 

The focus should really be on breaking the gangs, involving multi-national police investigations. Very complex.

 

[retarius]

I also read that Germany is considering using the facilities Britain has established in Rwanda for deportees....apparently it is illegal to deport British asylum seekers there , but not German ones. Go figure. 

[MicroB]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There is one likely problem with this idea.

 

Like the failed ‘Rwanda scheme’ it would almost certainly wind up being an exchange program, though hopefully not with the £hundreds of millions price tag attached.

 

Foreign prisoners deported from the UK to serve their time in their home country and British prisoners overseas sent back to Blighty in exchange.

 

I do however think, sentencing guidelines should be amended to include automatic ‘deportation from prison’ with no right of return for crimes of violence and other serious criminal convictions.

 

 

 

Estonia has offered to take prisoners. But its not going to be huge numbers. Estonia has about 1800 prisoners, one third of them foreign, and a prison capacity of just over 3000. These are mostly foreigners convicted in overseas courts.

 

https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/estonia

 

Remarkably, Estonia has been reducing its prison population. Tartu Prison is apparently almost entirely empty. And its not some Soviet era gulag. It was built in 2000, by a Swedish firm. Very Scandi. It can house 900 prisoners.

 

 

 

[MicroB]

5 minutes ago, retarius said:

I also read that Germany is considering using the facilities Britain has established in Rwanda for deportees....apparently it is illegal to deport British asylum seekers there , but not German ones. Go figure. 

 

No, what you read was a junior minister in one of the minority parties suggesting it. What you didn't read was the German Chancellor being opposed to the suggestion, citing, among other things, the legality of the scheme. So it is probably illegal for Germany to do that.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/rwanda-plan-germany-ambassador-tories-migrants-channel-asylum-seeker-b1180459.html

 

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/uproar-germany-copy-failed-rwanda-refugee-scheme-3265392

 

They are looking at third country schemes but have ruled out the British and Italian models.

[James105]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There is one likely problem with this idea.

 

Like the failed ‘Rwanda scheme’ it would almost certainly wind up being an exchange program, though hopefully not with the £hundreds of millions price tag attached.

 

Foreign prisoners deported from the UK to serve their time in their home country and British prisoners overseas sent back to Blighty in exchange.

 

I do however think, sentencing guidelines should be amended to include automatic ‘deportation from prison’ with no right of return for crimes of violence and other serious criminal convictions.

 

 

How are you going to get past the ECHR with this suggestion?   It's almost impossible to deport criminals from the UK as even if they get a 12 month sentence which is supposed to come with automatic deportation they typically appeal due to "a right to a family life" which means they cannot be deported.   

 

Surely you are not suggesting the UK should leave the ECHR?   

[Chomper Higgot]

38 minutes ago, James105 said:

 

How are you going to get past the ECHR with this suggestion?   It's almost impossible to deport criminals from the UK as even if they get a 12 month sentence which is supposed to come with automatic deportation they typically appeal due to "a right to a family life" which means they cannot be deported.   

 

Surely you are not suggesting the UK should leave the ECHR?   

Criminals are frequently deported.

 

And no I am not suggesting the UK leave the ECHR, I’m not, as you are aware, an adherent of such rightwing lunacy.

Edited September 8 by Chomper Higgot