Its Happening - Law to Tax Overseas Income Now in Progress

[Raindancer]

9 hours ago, worrab said:

They say: It follows that at some point, the tax collection agency may link the tax return to the issuance of visas. Certainly, that will be the moment of reckoning.

Pure conjecture on their part.

 

It doesn't necessarily follow that they will link TRD to visa extensions. 

 

Let's cross that bridge if and when it happens.

 

It's really not that big a deal if they do.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 12:26 AM by Raindancer
Amendment

[Fortunateson]

18 hours ago, pablo el sueco said:

I believe I may be negatively impacted by such a scenario.  Dividends earned by investing in municipal bonds are not subject to US taxation, but I believe they are not protected by the DTA; if this is true, such dividends may be subject to the proposed new taxation law in Thailand.  However, when it comes to filing a claim for foreign taxes paid, I believe there is a prohibition against claiming tax paid on income that is not subject to US taxation.  I truly hope I am mistaken.

Very clear explanation and, unfortunately, I do not think you are mistaken

[Albaby]

On 9/11/2024 at 6:03 AM, sandrew33 said:

Although you wouldn’t have no tax if you advised the local authorities that you weren’t tax resident. Consider Australia - the tax free threshold only applies to tax residents. If you have ceased to be Aussie tax resident you should pay tax on your Aussie pension from dollar 1. 
 

But people don’t advise the revenue authority and keep claiming the tax free threshold. 
 

 

First I've heard of it.

[Mason45]

2 hours ago, Albaby said:

First I've heard of it.

Where do I stand? I'm an 80 yo Aussie and I've lived in Pattaya for the past 24 years. I never returned to Australia when I was 63 years old so I don't get the aged pension. I've been assured by the ATO as I earn nothing over the tax threshold in Australia I'm tax exempt. So what would I be considered as for taxation purposes? Would I be a tax resident in Thailand or Australia? The reason I never went back to Australia when I was 63 yo was the fact that I sold my property in Melbourne prior so I would've had no where to live for that 2 year period. I live off investments in Australia but the interest is below the threshold where no tax is payable.

[Mike Teavee]

3 hours ago, Mason45 said:

Where do I stand? I'm an 80 yo Aussie and I've lived in Pattaya for the past 24 years. I never returned to Australia when I was 63 years old so I don't get the aged pension. I've been assured by the ATO as I earn nothing over the tax threshold in Australia I'm tax exempt. So what would I be considered as for taxation purposes? Would I be a tax resident in Thailand or Australia? The reason I never went back to Australia when I was 63 yo was the fact that I sold my property in Melbourne prior so I would've had no where to live for that 2 year period. I live off investments in Australia but the interest is below the threshold where no tax is payable.

 

Do you spend 180+ days in Thailand each calendar (1st Jan - 31st Dec) year? If yes then you are Tax Resident in Thailand if no then you are not. 

 

If you are Tax Resident in Thailand then what Tax you owe will depend on your income source(s) but at 80 the 1st 500K should be tax free (60K Personal Allowance, 190K for being  >65, 100K Income "Expenses" & the 1st 150K is Tax Free)... Add on more allowances if you're married and/or have kids in Thailand. 

 

 

[brfsa2]

Just something I wanted to share, and hear your opinions on this.

 

Does anyone think there is really a lot of control coming from countries and governments? 

Think about, this CRS system is so new and so powerful where all governments can track and assert control, such as denying a marriage visa based on the fact he missed declaring source he had abroad from other means. 

The end of cash and move to digital wallets is the beginning of the end of privacy.

 

What can be the solution? 

I read about what Tornado cash did, allowing fully anonymous transactions on Ethereum. This is huge because any blockchain that is private is banned almost everywhere, like Dash, Firo, But Ethereum? I cannot be banned right?

 

In summary, crypto really is the only way the government cannot track and control. and I think the current price of BTC is very much related to the new worldwide agreement for CRS.

 

Could it be real and happening already? What do you all think?

[nglodnig]

I'll wade in - Switzerland (of which I was a resident for more than twenty years) also have a world-widfe income thing for residents - and basically I just ignored this (claiming lack of German if anyone asked). HOW are the TRD going to track your wealth when you are not a resident of ANY other country apart from Thailand? Send a letter to every country everywhere asking if you heard about you? 

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, brfsa2 said:

Just something I wanted to share, and hear your opinions on this.

 

Does anyone think there is really a lot of control coming from countries and governments? 

Think about, this CRS system is so new and so powerful where all governments can track and assert control, such as denying a marriage visa based on the fact he missed declaring source he had abroad from other means. 

The end of cash and move to digital wallets is the beginning of the end of privacy.

 

What can be the solution? 

I read about what Tornado cash did, allowing fully anonymous transactions on Ethereum. This is huge because any blockchain that is private is banned almost everywhere, like Dash, Firo, But Ethereum? I cannot be banned right?

 

In summary, crypto really is the only way the government cannot track and control. and I think the current price of BTC is very much related to the new worldwide agreement for CRS.

 

Could it be real and happening already? What do you all think?

CRS has been widely used by many countries for about 10 years. 

FATCA is the same,  for the US, even older

[Gobbler]

On 9/7/2024 at 9:12 PM, CharlieH said:

Courtesy of Revenue Dept.

 

The Thai Revenue Department is currently drafting legislation to tax the overseas income of individuals residing in Thailand.

 

According to Kulaya Tantitemit, the director-general of the department, this draft is aligned with the international principle of worldwide income under the residence rule.

 

This principle mandates that an individual's income, regardless of its origin, should be taxed by the country where the individual resides for a specific period.

 

To implement this, an amendment to Section 41 of the Revenue Code is required. The proposed amendment would require individuals residing in Thailand for 180 days or more to pay personal income tax on overseas income, even if that income is not brought into Thailand.

In the first 11 months of the 2024 fiscal year, the Revenue Department collected 1.963 trillion baht, surpassing its target by 0.4% or 8.44 billion baht.

 

This strong performance was attributed to government measures aimed at stimulating consumption, such as the easy e-Receipt program, which boosted the collection of value-added tax from domestic consumption. 

 

Ms. Kulaya anticipates that by the end of this fiscal year on September 30, the department will meet its target of 2.28 trillion baht.

 

For the fiscal year 2025, beginning on October 1, the Ministry of Finance has set a target for the department to collect 2.372 trillion baht.

 

Credit Bangkok Post.

 

2024-09-07

 

 

Get the ASEAN NOW daily NEWSLETTER - Click HERE to subscribe

 

Come on, Charlie. It's becoming clickbait. The primary word is "drafting." The beauty of Thailand is that none of these MPs agree with each other, so the process will not be ready soon. 

 

There's plenty of time to find another place to live.

[CharlesHolzhauer]

11 hours ago, Mason45 said:

Where do I stand? I'm an 80 yo Aussie and I've lived in Pattaya for the past 24 years. I never returned to Australia when I was 63 years old so I don't get the aged pension. I've been assured by the ATO as I earn nothing over the tax threshold in Australia I'm tax exempt. So what would I be considered as for taxation purposes? Would I be a tax resident in Thailand or Australia? The reason I never went back to Australia when I was 63 yo was the fact that I sold my property in Melbourne prior so I would've had no where to live for that 2 year period. I live off investments in Australia but the interest is below the threshold where no tax is payable.

Mate, it looks like you are a tax resident of Thailand and under the current system you may be required paying taxes on your remittances.

This small spreadsheet to compute taxes maybe helpful.
https://aseannow.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=963918&key=3d1fbcad20096f3b29832d1f9cb6f5bd

Credit to: 'pauku1'

<https://aseannow.com/topic/1318120-revenue-department-contact-reports/#comment-18647010>

[Ebumbu]

On 9/10/2024 at 3:40 PM, gamb00ler said:

Prepare a list of questions you have regarding tax credits and post them.  Several regular posters in these tax threads understand them very well.

 

 

 

I will be throwing this mess at a Thai/US accountant and saying "Deal with it." 

[cedel]

They made lately a few visa more attractive.. but why on earth would a wealthy person want to reside in Thailand if his WORLDWIDE income would be taxed more than he managed to do so far? 

Open your eyes, you want more money flow into thai economy, you propose new and easier visa on 1 hand, but on the other hand with the proposals of former PM Sretta of taxing foreigners who stay more than 6 months per year in Thailand you make everyone step back from investing buying properties in Thailand and they will reduce their time to stay less than 6 months per year in Thailand or simply move away, sell their property and consider more friendly, more attractive, and less greedy neighbooring countries like Viêtnam, Cambodia and the Philippines that don't have automatic fiscal exchange like CRS from the OECD, or FATCA and will not want to tax foreigners like that ! 

That's without counting that it's still not allowed to buy like almost everywhere in Europe or other continents a real plot of land with the house)(without employing thai nominees in a company to own the Land which is still illegal! although done by hundreds of thousands if not millions of foreigners) and still not allowed to have the same rights on it than locals, plus no social security even if you would pay your taxes in Thailand. add countless reports and paperwork with immigration... and more hassles, time loss and money spent with filing proper tax reports from both sides, paying lawyers/accountants in Thailand as in your home country.. 

I think you can make even free 20 years visa, if you are going into this direction with the taxes, and no advantages for us but only burdens, it's not going to work, that's a fact and logic ! 

[sandrew33]

On 9/12/2024 at 6:49 PM, Mason45 said:

Where do I stand? I'm an 80 yo Aussie and I've lived in Pattaya for the past 24 years. I never returned to Australia when I was 63 years old so I don't get the aged pension. I've been assured by the ATO as I earn nothing over the tax threshold in Australia I'm tax exempt. So what would I be considered as for taxation purposes? Would I be a tax resident in Thailand or Australia? The reason I never went back to Australia when I was 63 yo was the fact that I sold my property in Melbourne prior so I would've had no where to live for that 2 year period. I live off investments in Australia but the interest is below the threshold where no tax is payable.

 

On those facts you are a Thai tax resident. 

 

In Australia you'd be a non tax resident which means you aren't entitled to a tax free threshold as that only applies to tax residents. Given you've been in Thailand for 24 years I'm assuming your Aussie bank has a Thai address for you and is withholding tax on your interest payments at 10% of the interest paid? (that would be your only tax liability in Australia)

 

As a tax resident of Thailand you likely have an obligation to lodge a return there and any Aussie tax paid (say the 10% withholding) would be a credit under the DTA. 

 

I understand that in practice you likely aren't lodging in Thailand and arguably haven't had to under previous laws but if you wanted a technical view under the proposed new rules then I'd suggest that's how it works

[sandrew33]

On 9/13/2024 at 12:01 AM, nglodnig said:

I'll wade in - Switzerland (of which I was a resident for more than twenty years) also have a world-widfe income thing for residents - and basically I just ignored this (claiming lack of German if anyone asked). HOW are the TRD going to track your wealth when you are not a resident of ANY other country apart from Thailand? Send a letter to every country everywhere asking if you heard about you? 

 

It's any country you are resident in or have a legal right of residency typically, so they'll start with the country of your passport. 

 

If the broader question is bureaucrats and bureaucracy are kinda flawed and I am kinda clever and I think I might be able to get away with this then sure.. go for it and good luck to you. Tax avoidance, evasion and fraud are all massive pastimes and many are happy to engage in the lawful, the fringe and the outright unlawful and many get away with it. 

 

For those more risk averse or concerned about this sort of stuff being eventually tied into visas then I guess they'll probably try and comply rather than take the punt. 

 

The smartest course if of course to understand as much as you can about the rules and the practical operation of the rules and then to chart your course based on your own circumstances, risk appetite and stress tolerance 

 

Each to their own. 

[anrcaccount]

2 hours ago, sandrew33 said:

For those more risk averse or concerned about this sort of stuff being eventually tied into visas then I guess they'll probably try and comply rather than take the punt. 

 

The smartest course if of course to understand as much as you can about the rules and the practical operation of the rules and then to chart your course based on your own circumstances, risk appetite and stress tolerance 

 

Each to their own. 

 

What an excellent comment - very well said.

 

This is exactly how the best accounting and taxation professionals frame their advice. 

 

They're not about absolute letter of the law compliance, that's an extreme view. 

 

It's also very important to understand the reality, or as you put it well "the practical operation of the rules". In Thailand, this is particularly relevant vs most other jurisdictions. 

 

Then, chart your own course based on risk assessment.

 

This assessment needs to not only include understanding of the rules but also the practical operation, enforcement or lack of, common practices and local nuances.

 

[redwood1]

On 9/14/2024 at 5:57 AM, cedel said:

They made lately a few visa more attractive.. but why on earth would a wealthy person want to reside in Thailand if his WORLDWIDE income would be taxed more than he managed to do so far? 

Open your eyes, you want more money flow into thai economy, you propose new and easier visa on 1 hand, but on the other hand with the proposals of former PM Sretta of taxing foreigners who stay more than 6 months per year in Thailand you make everyone step back from investing buying properties in Thailand and they will reduce their time to stay less than 6 months per year in Thailand or simply move away, sell their property and consider more friendly, more attractive, and less greedy neighbooring countries like Viêtnam, Cambodia and the Philippines that don't have automatic fiscal exchange like CRS from the OECD, or FATCA and will not want to tax foreigners like that ! 

That's without counting that it's still not allowed to buy like almost everywhere in Europe or other continents a real plot of land with the house)(without employing thai nominees in a company to own the Land which is still illegal! although done by hundreds of thousands if not millions of foreigners) and still not allowed to have the same rights on it than locals, plus no social security even if you would pay your taxes in Thailand. add countless reports and paperwork with immigration... and more hassles, time loss and money spent with filing proper tax reports from both sides, paying lawyers/accountants in Thailand as in your home country.. 

I think you can make even free 20 years visa, if you are going into this direction with the taxes, and no advantages for us but only burdens, it's not going to work, that's a fact and logic ! 

 

This is all 100% correct...

 

The most funny thing about their freaking stupid tax ideas is they will get virtually ZERO farangs to pay any tax .....Farangs will do any thing and every thing to avoid paying......Every last one of them.......Even the sad farang who will be putting a confused emoji face on this post will be looking to pay zero taxes....lol.......I guarantee it.......lol

Edited Sunday at 07:44 AM by redwood1

[motdaeng]

16 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

This is all 100% correct...

 

The most funny thing about their freaking stupid tax ideas is they will get virtually ZERO farangs to pay any tax .....Farangs will do any thing and every thing to avoid paying......Every last one of them.......Even the sad farang who will be putting a confused emoji face on this post will be looking to pay zero taxes....lol.......I guarantee it.......lol

 

not all foreigners are millionaires or have businesses or income from their home country. many foreigners don't have to pay any taxes in thailand ...

[chiang mai]

17 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

This is all 100% correct...

 

The most funny thing about their freaking stupid tax ideas is they will get virtually ZERO farangs to pay any tax .....Farangs will do any thing and every thing to avoid paying......Every last one of them.......Even the sad farang who will be putting a confused emoji face on this post will be looking to pay zero taxes....lol.......I guarantee it.......lol

 

29 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

not all foreigners are millionaires or have businesses or income from their home country. many foreigners don't have to pay any taxes in thailand ...

 

Well said motdaeng.

 

RW: Surely you must realise that Immigration sees the financial status of all foreigners on long stay visa's and that information is relayed to the TRD, in order to help decide tax policy. TRD knows with great certainty that historically, the average retiree came here and lived on about 65k per month, the same today as a middle class Thai's might earn, perhaps 50k a month for married foreigners.  Thailand has been a historically cheap place to live, less so today as inflation has increased.

 

Trying to aim tax policy at wealthy westerner retirees is a futile and pointless exercise, that is the group that is the smallest and the most mobile. The average foreign retiree will end up paying little or no tax, the TRD knows this otherwise they would be seen as a pirah in the eyes of the international community. The more wealthy group may need to cough up but that the price they pay from trying to escape tax by living here in the first place. And if none of that sits well with you, there's always, dear old home sweet home, back across the water.

[Rolo89]

17 hours ago, redwood1 said:

The most funny thing about their freaking stupid tax ideas is they will get virtually ZERO farangs to pay any tax .....Farangs will do any thing and every thing to avoid paying......Every last one of them

I'd happily pay 17%, zero tax will catch up with someone seeing as most countries share information thesedays

 

But yes Thai's stand to lose the most from the tax changes with their investments and not as mobile. 

[jwest10]

On 9/12/2024 at 9:39 PM, Mike Teavee said:

 

Do you spend 180+ days in Thailand each calendar (1st Jan - 31st Dec) year? If yes then you are Tax Resident in Thailand if no then you are not. 

 

If you are Tax Resident in Thailand then what Tax you owe will depend on your income source(s) but at 80 the 1st 500K should be tax free (60K Personal Allowance, 190K for being  >65, 100K Income "Expenses" & the 1st 150K is Tax Free)... Add on more allowances if you're married and/or have kids in Thailand. 

 

 

Agree, Mike and maybe wrong but believe most British ex-pats will receive  less than the thresholds and if married can claim 60 on your wife but has to be claimed on a dual tax return.
On the question of tax  forms the 2024 ones if and when end of Oct/Nov but been told from the Tax Office Kanchanaburi / Danmakhamtia I would not need to file one and they stated this a few times.