Latest carmaker to scale back its EV ambitions amid slowing sales

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, Woke to Sounds of Horking said:

Klous Schwabs, the W-E-F, and communist govts have no intention to allow the expansion of the range of EVs. You will keep to your 15 minute cities and 300 km range because the world is melting. Also they can flip a switch and your car shuts down like The Robocop. With ICE cars no such external controls exist and that is why coal is bad, petrol is bad and you will be shamed for driving an ICE.

 

All new ICE cars are also online and can be shutdown.

[JBChiangRai]

14 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

I'm telling  you these EV drivers are worse, just yesterday I had one of these EV Villeneuve wannabees tailgating, cutting through traffic like he was on the Nuerburgring.

 

The accelaration in EV cars is beyond their capability to harness. The less of these cars we have on the roads the better it will be.

 

I'm detecting a bit of jealousy here.

 

I think two of the most powerful EV's out there are the Tesla Model 3 Performance and BYD Seal Performance and they are both accomplished at handling 500+ hp.

 

 

[ignis]

20 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I'm detecting a bit of jealousy here.

 

I think two of the most powerful EV's out there are the Tesla Model 3 Performance and BYD Seal Performance and they are both accomplished at handling 500+ hp.

 

 

As you expect  as both the Tesla Model 3 and Tesla Model Y use the same battery made by BYD  as do many other makes and model EV's

[lordgrinz]

Just now, ignis said:

As you expect  as both the Tesla Model 3 and Tesla Model Y use the same battery made by BYD  as do many other makes and model EV's

 

Interesting, I wasn't aware that BYD was the battery maker for Tesla, learn something new every day!

[Ralf001]

15 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

I'm telling  you these EV drivers are worse, just yesterday I had one of these EV Villeneuve wannabees tailgating, cutting through traffic like he was on the Nuerburgring.

 

 

 

I love those ones... come up behind me on the motorway... Iam doing 140... and they right up my claker flashing their headlights.

I have a switch wired to my tail lights... throw the switch and brake lights come on.... hilarity unsues !

[lordgrinz]

Just now, Ralf001 said:

 

I love those ones... come up behind me on the motorway... Iam doing 140... and they right up my claker flashing their headlights.

I have a switch wired to my tail lights... throw the switch and brake lights come on.... hilarity unsues !

 

I've always used the left foot brake lightly to turn the light on, while accelerating away. My form of a safe brake check to wake tailgaters up, though if I see someone coming up fast behind me, I usually just move over. Not interested in playing a road-raging game. 

[Ralf001]

10 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

 Not interested in playing a road-raging game. 

 

I enjoy it.... brightens up  what is normally a boring drive to/from work.

[Bandersnatch]

17 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

VW is talking about closing factorys as the cant keep on building expensive ecars they cant sell and also have to faze out ice

 

VW’s falling sales will result in EV maker BYD taking the world number 2 spot very soon

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Interesting, I wasn't aware that BYD was the battery maker for Tesla, learn something new every day!

Yep ... why they are so competitively priced, and other makers have to price drop to be competitive.   When you make the most expensive component of your product, and the rest, most, have to buy from you or CATL (50% of market), it definitely gives you a pricing edge.

 

When the battery sales is you main income flow, you can sell BEVs at cost if really wanting to, and still be profitable.

 

 

 

source

Edited September 11 by KhunLA

[lordgrinz]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Yep ... why they are so competitively priced, and other makers have to price drop to be competitive.   When you make the most expensive component of your product, and the rest, most, have to buy from you or CATL, it definitely gives you a pricing edge.

 

When the battery sales is you main income flow, you can sell BEVs at cost if really wanting to, and still be profitable.

 

The Battery and electric motors would be my biggest issue with a competitor to a mainstream automaker, but I will keep them on my list for when I finally choose one, but I still want to see lighter weight, and faster charging batteries first. But until adaption is over 50%, I don't think I will be buying one anyway. 

[KhunLA]

12 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

The Battery and electric motors would be my biggest issue with a competitor to a mainstream automaker, but I will keep them on my list for when I finally choose one, but I still want to see lighter weight, and faster charging batteries first. But until adaption is over 50%, I don't think I will be buying one anyway. 

Depends on one's age.  I didn't want to miss out on the savings, and now realize, after owning, I would have definitely missed out on performance, when needed, or not 😁

 

At 67, knocking on 68 yrs old, when purchased, shy of 2 yrs ago, didn't want to wait much longer.   Especially since they upgraded nicely since first arriving to TH, along govt actually paying me 240k to buy one.  Pretty hard to say no to that at the time.   And already had solar system on order.  Win win all around, since not only avoiding the cost of petrol, don't even have to pay for the electrons 

 

Fast charging only an issue when away from home, which most aren't, so non issue for most.   Balance against the weekly top up of an ICEV, I'm way ahead on spending time at 'top up' stations.  Since I'm there anyway, for a stretch, dog walk, P and a munch, it really doesn't add much, if any to out stops when O&A.

 

Not for everyone of course, but fits perfectly into our lifestyle.

Edited September 11 by KhunLA

[vinny41]

37 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

VW’s falling sales will result in EV maker BYD taking the world number 2 spot very soon

 

 

 

you get a different picture when you look at figures for sales from January to July

However, the picture regarding sales for the year so far was significantly different. Despite its strong showing in July, BYD only managed to clinch eighth place from January to July, based on sales of 1,714,100. Sales for Geely were significantly lower, at 577,700, with the brand managing eighteenth place overall. Once again, Toyota and Volkswagen were in first and second place, respectively, but Honda came in third for the year so far.

https://carnewschina.com/2024/09/04/byd-was-third-best-selling-brand-in-the-world-in-july-this-year/

[ExpatOilWorker]

18 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

you get a different picture when you look at figures for sales from January to July

However, the picture regarding sales for the year so far was significantly different. Despite its strong showing in July, BYD only managed to clinch eighth place from January to July, based on sales of 1,714,100. Sales for Geely were significantly lower, at 577,700, with the brand managing eighteenth place overall. Once again, Toyota and Volkswagen were in first and second place, respectively, but Honda came in third for the year so far.

https://carnewschina.com/2024/09/04/byd-was-third-best-selling-brand-in-the-world-in-july-this-year/

MG is nowhere to be seen on any list. 

Soon RIP MG?

[lordgrinz]

Just now, ExpatOilWorker said:

MG is nowhere to be seen on any list. 

Soon RIP MG?

 

I see so many MG's around here, it would be hard to believe they will RIP.

[JBChiangRai]

16 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

MG is nowhere to be seen on any list. 

Soon RIP MG?

Enter KhunLA stage left…..

[RocketDog]

On 9/9/2024 at 11:00 AM, redwood1 said:

EVs are stupid.....They can hardly give them away...

I totally support greener tech and environmental issues and solutions, but EV are simply not the answer.... not yet. Higher initial cost, high maintenance costs, poor battery life and expensive replacements, and limited charging locations are a reality.

 

Like so many other things, it took a few years of experience for folks to finally realize the fantasy that EV's were sold by and with.

 

As a retired electronic engineer who has studied battery technology for years, I'm still waiting for tech that will make electric cars an embraceable reality. It will probably come, but not tomorrow.

 

It was clear to me from the beginning that cramming a car full of failure-prone cameras and marginally useful electronic gadgets could not compensate for poor battery life and mileage nightmares. Whatever reliability gains made by the inherently simpler EV design are squandered on flashy gee-gaws.

 

In actual fact all that extra crap just makes them more unreliable.  Search for the Arrehnius equation. More crap, more connections, more components equates to higher failure rates.

 

Either way be sure to read the contract before you buy to be sure you're OK with letting all the electronics legally monitor and OWN ALL of your activities in your own car, including sex in Nissan's case. They do a much better job of tracking and compiling every scrap of your data possible than cell phones ever could.

 

Overall, way too many cons to counter the pros IMO. Finally though the hybrid designs are getting the attention and sales they deserve. Most of the gains, less of the problems, more fuel availability and at a more affordable price than an EV.

If you're an early EV adopter and happy to pay the price then you've played your part in the recent 'epiphany' that so many owners and manufacturers are having. You have saved many others from making a costly mistake.

[RocketDog]

On 9/9/2024 at 1:43 PM, hotchilli said:

I have several close neigbours who now drive EV's, not one of them have said it's a decision that they now regret.

That's good news. (I do wonder how many of them would willingly admit to making an expensive mistake though. Human nature ya know!)

 

I have never replaced an engine 3 years after buying a car. It's only taken about that long for EV owners to gasp at battery replacement cost though.

 

But realize that many of us are thanking them for taking the plunge and demonstrating the major issues plaguing the EV industry. Apparently somebody had to do it. This technology curve is no different than the others we have lived through.

 

Apparently 8 track tape players were NOT  the answer to music-on-demand for cars and Video Dics were NOT the answer for movie players, or hoverboards/segways for personal transportation either; but somebody had to buy them to show it. Sales for these items died in months, not years.

The pattern is just repeating.

[hotchilli]

6 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

That's good news. (I do wonder how many of them would willingly admit to making an expensive mistake though. Human nature ya know!)

 

I have never replaced an engine 3 years after buying a car. It's only taken about that long for EV owners to gasp at battery replacement cost though.

 

But realize that many of us are thanking them for taking the plunge and demonstrating the major issues plaguing the EV industry. Apparently somebody had to do it. This technology curve is no different than the others we have lived through.

 

Apparently 8 track tape players were NOT  the answer to music-on-demand for cars and Video Dics were NOT the answer for movie players, or hoverboards/segways for personal transportation either; but somebody had to buy them to show it. Sales for these items died in months, not years.

The pattern is just repeating.

Time will tell,it's early days yet... they will either make it or die out in favour of ICE's as they did in the early 1900's

[redwood1]

EVs Are Losing Up to 50 Percent of Their Value in One Year

https://www.wired.com/story/evs-are-losing-up-to-50-percent-of-their-value-in-one-year/

 

 

Our first discovery was that, in the UK, various new electric cars lose 50 percent of their value in the first 12 months. Yes, you read that right—some EVs depreciate by 50 percent in a single year.

 

 

Edited September 11 by redwood1

[RocketDog]

2 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

Time will tell,it's early days yet... they will either make it or die out in favour of ICE's as they did in the early 1900's

Don't get me wrong. EV is the very best way to make a car from all the alternatives available. That was true in the 1900's as well. So why did they fail? Read on.

 

There is no way to beat using your own solar collectors to power your car.

The electric motors with high tech magnets are tremendously efficient even without considering regenerative braking which returns some of the energy spent accelerating. Continuously variable transmissions are a breeze to implement. No wasted energy sitting at a stop light. Weight and  service saved on transmissions,radiators, coolong pumps, oil pumps, gas tanks, can be used to pay for a battery pack located where it should be.... the middle bottom of the car. Oh, and no exhaust funds or noise.

 

The only thing holding back the EV  dream is the battery itself. I studied battery chemistry/tech and waited for a revolution all of my 60+ years as an electronic design engineer......I'm still waiting.

 

I would ask a simple question:

Why are we ALL still using lead-acid batteries (they aren't cheap and generally last about 3 years) to start our ICE engines? How about golf carts? Forklifts?....... Lead acid! (Personally I would NEVER fly in a battery powered airplane! Yikes)

 

When that question is satisfactorily answered I will happily go shopping for an EV. (At least these won't fall 10,000 feet unless they go off a mountain LOL.)

[hotchilli]

13 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

When that question is satisfactorily answered I will happily go shopping for an EV.

Nikola Tesla came close to the answer, but the powers to be shut him down.

[RocketDog]

3 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

Nikola Tesla came close to the answer, but the powers to be shut him down.

Funny that you mention that. I have not studied his life exhaustively, but there is no doubt he was a genius.

 

His work produced the AC Inductance motor with a solid rotor (no copper windings). These are the most ubiquitous motors in the world at this point. The next motor revolution is now under way though. I spent several years designing BLDC (brushless DC) motor controllers. They also have a solid core, in this case a magnetic one but commutation is done electronically with MOSFETs instead of the familiar arcing brushes we commonly see in vacuums and cheaper power tools. Many portable power tool manufacturers are moving to them now. My DeWalt drill has one for instance.

They are more efficient and eliminate worn carbon brushes and inherently allow continuous speed control. AC induction motor speed is purely a function of windings and AC line frequency however. Brushed motors offer speed control but have drawbacks already mentioned.

The very newest motor designs for EV are beyond brushless but with similar theory and will eventually replace BLDC motors sooner than one would think.

But I will spare you the battery rant this time though it still applies.

 

Vehicles are heavy and needs lots of power. Conventional (now) lithium/cobalt or lithium iron phosphate simply does not have the energy density or maximum number of charge cycles personal vehicles require, regardless of motor efficiency. Gasoline has tremendous energy density by comparison. Put a few milliliters of gasoline in a bowl and watch how long it burns!

 

Back to Tesla. IMO he had lifelong mental health issues and his brutal competition with Edison drove him around the bend. His dream of sending power through the air was poorly founded in theory (IMO) and unlikely it could  be achieved with the other technology necessary and available at the time even if sound in theory.  Remember we were just struggling with the new tech called Radio at that time.

Will it ever happen?Maybe, but certainly not in my lifetime.

 

BTW, the government conspiracy thing is grossly exaggerated conjecture IMO.

[redwood1]

17 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

Funny that you mention that. I have not studied his life exhaustively, but there is no doubt he was a genius.

 

His work produced the AC Inductance motor with a solid rotor (no copper windings). These are the most ubiquitous motors in the world at this point. The next motor revolution is now under way though. I spent several years designing BLDC (brushless DC) motor controllers. They also have a solid core, in this case a magnetic one but commutation is done electronically with MOSFETs instead of the familiar arcing brushes we commonly see in vacuums and cheaper power tools. Many portable power tool manufacturers are moving to them now. My DeWalt drill has one for instance.

They are more efficient and eliminate worn carbon brushes and inherently allow continuous speed control. AC induction motor speed is purely a function of windings and AC line frequency however. Brushed motors offer speed control but have drawbacks already mentioned.

The very newest motor designs for EV are beyond brushless but with similar theory and will eventually replace BLDC motors sooner than one would think.

But I will spare you the battery rant this time though it still applies.

 

Vehicles are heavy and needs lots of power. Conventional (now) lithium/cobalt or lithium iron phosphate simply does not have the energy density or maximum number of charge cycles personal vehicles require, regardless of motor efficiency. Gasoline has tremendous energy density by comparison. Put a few milliliters of gasoline in a bowl and watch how long it burns!

 

Back to Tesla. IMO he had lifelong mental health issues and his brutal competition with Edison drove him around the bend. His dream of sending power through the air was poorly founded in theory (IMO) and unlikely it could  be achieved with the other technology necessary and available at the time even if sound in theory.  Remember we were just struggling with the new tech called Radio at that time.

Will it ever happen?Maybe, but certainly not in my lifetime.

 

BTW, the government conspiracy thing is grossly exaggerated conjecture IMO.

 

BTW, the government conspiracy thing is grossly exaggerated conjecture IMO.

 

The subject way to long to go into here.....But many many inventors who have possibly come close to various forums of free energy have met with a amazing array of untimely deaths, went missing, were forced to sell out....bla bla bla its really quite a impressive list.......look it up......

 

Exaggerated? I think not....

Edited September 11 by redwood1

[RocketDog]

4 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

BTW, the government conspiracy thing is grossly exaggerated conjecture IMO.

 

The subject way to long to go into here.....But many many inventors who have possibly come close to various forums of free energy have met with a amazing array of untimely deaths, went missing, were forced to sell out....bla bla bla its really quite a impressive list.......look it up......

 

Exaggerated? I think not....

So literally thousands of folks over several decades we're in the 'true know' but have kept silent about it? Paid off? How many millions did that take?

Fake moon landing? Aliens at Roswell?

5G causing cancer?

Microchips in vaccines?

 

I think not.

Humans like to talk and famously can't keep a secret. Look at social media today.

 

This very fact is the downfall of most conspiracy theories which depend on lifelong secrecy from way too many people.

 

 

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

2 hours ago, RocketDog said:

Higher initial cost, high maintenance costs, poor battery life and expensive replacements

Just your opinion based on not actually owning an EV. 
 

How about some facts instead?

The MG EP is known as the MG 5 in other countries and if you want to know what they look like after 120,000 miles:

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

2 hours ago, RocketDog said:

limited charging locations are a reality.

I own 2 EVs and have been driving EVs in Thailand for over 4 years and never had a problem changing away from home.

 

Try the PlugShare app - screen shot below

 

My latest EV has a 600km range 

 

 

[hotchilli]

2 hours ago, RocketDog said:

BTW, the government conspiracy thing is grossly exaggerated conjecture IMO

But strange how they shut him down, confiscated all his notes and records and took all his devices and equipment.

Maybe conspiracy I don't know, but maybe he was onto something.

Thanks for your interesting post.

[RocketDog]

52 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

But strange how they shut him down, confiscated all his notes and records and took all his devices and equipment.

Maybe conspiracy I don't know, but maybe he was onto something.

Thanks for your interesting post.

Agreed. It would have changed the world. Too bad we will never know. After do many years it seems likely that DARPA would have released and claimed it as their own work though. The military advantages would have been to tempting to let it lie fallow.

 

The simple explanation however is that the gov would want it all if he had succeeded; they just didn't know and definitely didn't want it falling into enemy hands.

Occam's Razor explanation.

 

Thanks for a thought-provoking question and civil discussion. It was refreshing.

[RocketDog]

3 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

Just your opinion based on not actually owning an EV. 
 

How about some facts instead?

The MG EP is known as the MG 5 in other countries and if you want to know what they look like after 120,000 miles:

 

 

I don't have to buy stuff and then regret it to know that it's not worth my money. If you are different then you're a lucky guy indeed despite following very unwise purchasing practice.

 

I'm glad you are happy with your purchase. There are certainly many buyers who aren't,  and no, I won't provide links for you.

As for your second reply just remember that there are over 130 countries in the world and they are not so richly endowed with redundant charging stations as Thailand apparently is.

The Hub of EV Charging for the world?😁

 

Here's a fact though. Many large car makers are reverting on their large investments and marketing efforts of EV. Alternatively, even though my arguments fall flat for you apparently they don't for car buyers now.

 

Why do you suppose they are doing so? What do you know that they and I don't know?

 

Come on. Give us a clue....

or start a EV car company and make your fortune quickly based on your inside knowledge.

 

Here's my guess again though. People are seeing the current products won't fit their needs and have decided not to buy now. The car companies, not being stupid or emotional, have figured that out. I also strongly suspect that most of them didn't have to purchase an EV to make their decision.

 

No worries though as I'm sure your vehicle will perform flawlessly for decades to come.

 

 

 

[retarius]

On 9/9/2024 at 10:00 PM, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

It is complete rubbish to say all major car companies are scaling back their EV plans.

 

Change that statement to "many major car companies that can't compete with Chinese manufacturers are scaling back their EV plans." and we're getting nearer the truth.

 

Now ask why?

 

Is it because people don't like EV's?  No, that can't be it because EV demand is growing month on month all over the world.

 

Is it because their EV's are more expensive than Chinese EV's? Yes, that's one of the reasons.

 

Is it because their technology is not as advanced as Chinese EV's? Yes that is another of the reasons.

 

Is it because they have to buy their batteries from Chinese companies? Yes, that is another of the reasons.

 

Next year's, Toyota & Mercedes EV's will have BYD batteries.

Usual nonsense. Get an education and learn to read.