Don’t kill the golden goose! Tax reforms may drive away expats

[Deputy7]

Many will be moving to Vietnam and the Philippines!!!

[Reddavy]

12 hours ago, zakalwe said:

The golden goose is the stupid tourist, not the savvy expat.

Of course it is. 🤡

[xtrnuno41]

11 hours ago, Andycoops said:

How the hell are they going to find out what your worldwide income is?

 

As a expat here.

 

If you have multiple bank accounts in multiple countries, like some people I know and you tell them you have 1 account in 1 country.

 

They have no way of knowing anything different.

 

Totally absurd.

Ever heard of computer systems? Connect them together, have, probably, an AI now and they know all.

In "my country", I open a new account with bank and they know. Dont have to tell.

I cant do payments over 3000 euro, cash. If I must do then such a payment digital, I probably would get an email what it is for and have to show evidence. If I dont comply, they will kick me out (allowed) and I am on a blacklist.

SO there goes your life.

Banks get big fines if they dont show controlling of money.

For courtesy reasons, they send you the numbers, you get an email and they show what they take.

Kim yung un may be called a dictator, but money system all countries  is another one.

[Chadnik]

Expatriate income is finite. What the government takes is not spent into the economy assisting family, local businesses, hospitals, aesthetic clinic, education, parks, entertainment

 

 

It just disappears

 

I don't even have permeant residency or even resident visa extension. I report to police every 90 days.

[Gottfrid]

5 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

You are misunderstanding this.  Thailand may have a higher tax rate on certain types of income.  If not excluded by DTA, that income can be taxed.  You may, or may not, be able to claim a credit for tax paid to the other country when taxed in Thailand.  You may, or may not, be able to claim a credit for higher tax paid to Thailand.

 

Thailand does not recognize exemptions and allowances and special rates allowed under foreign country tax codes.  Thailand has it's own exemptions and allowances, and will tax the foreign income BEFORE those exemptions/allowances were applied.

 

Your home country may give you a $12,000 personal exemption.  Thailand will give you $1,750 on your foreign income before exemption.

 

Your home country may allow you to offset capital losses against capital gains.  Thailand does not.  You will be taxed on the total capital gains.  Losses are disregarded.

You are going a little bit on the wrong side here, I think.

Sure, Thailand is going to tax income as salary for all that do not work through a registered company. Exactly like in most countries. If you are employed and have a salary, you probably can´t deduct any loss in your home country either. Am I right?

Moreover, if you live and earn an income in Thailand, then you have chosen to live in a country that have a lower amount in exemption. That´s a choice. if you live in any other country, you will have to accept their rules for exemption as well. Same goes for allowances and other exemptions. I still think they will fix it, so that if any amount should be taxed in another country out of some reason, mostly a tax treaty will make a stop for double taxation.

[ikke1959]

1 hour ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Ever heard of computer systems? Connect them together, have, probably, an AI now and they know all.

In "my country", I open a new account with bank and they know. Dont have to tell.

I cant do payments over 3000 euro, cash. If I must do then such a payment digital, I probably would get an email what it is for and have to show evidence. If I dont comply, they will kick me out (allowed) and I am on a blacklist.

SO there goes your life.

Banks get big fines if they dont show controlling of money.

For courtesy reasons, they send you the numbers, you get an email and they show what they take.

Kim yung un may be called a dictator, but money system all countries  is another one.

In Thailand they can't use computers many examples... policecomputers of different areas are not connected, bank offices are not connected , even the living place and the blue family book are not connected... and AI that will take a few decades before Thailand knows what it is 

[NoDisplayName]

51 minutes ago, Gottfrid said:

You are going a little bit on the wrong side here, I think.

Sure, Thailand is going to tax income as salary for all that do not work through a registered company. Exactly like in most countries. If you are employed and have a salary, you probably can´t deduct any loss in your home country either. Am I right?

Moreover, if you live and earn an income in Thailand, then you have chosen to live in a country that have a lower amount in exemption. That´s a choice. if you live in any other country, you will have to accept their rules for exemption as well. Same goes for allowances and other exemptions. I still think they will fix it, so that if any amount should be taxed in another country out of some reason, mostly a tax treaty will make a stop for double taxation.

 

Not salary.  Under discussion is capital gains from sales of stocks or mutual funds.

 

In your home country losses offset gains.  You make $20K on one fund, you lose $20K on another - loss offsets the gain, $0 profit, $0 tax.

 

Thailand does not allow for offsetting gains with losses, so you will be paying tax to Thailand on $20K you earned overseas as ordinary income.

[kickstart]

13 hours ago, chiang mai said:

13 hours ago, KannikaP said:

So where do either your monthly transfer, or your living expenses come from please?

Pension into a Thai bank directly?

Mine do, everything is paid directly to Thailand. I only use my UK account to receive monthly rent payments from my agent and pay HMRC any tax due, 

Pluss 1, I am the same Uk pension paid directly to Thailand, UK account to receive rental income, most of that money I keep in the UK as spending for when I go back, a few weeks in the Uk can soon write off a 1000 GBP, and that does not include the return air fare.

[Fortunateson]

4 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

will 100% not stay in Thailand for 180 days+. I have too much to lose financially. I'd rather spend my hard-earned money in other countries. Southern Europe in summer and some months in wintertime like Philippines, Vietnam, etc until the fog of tax uncertainty clears.

I have a similar plan, but 

I strongly suspect that once the global tax change goes into effect, the “stay in Thailand less than 180 days” loophole will also be closed.  Thailand will simply require residence visa holders to be resident in Thailand for 180 days, or the visa will be cancelled.  This is a requirement in most countries for residence visas.  Fir example, take a look at Portugal or UK requirements to be in country 180 days to retain the visa.  If it comes to this, I will give up my visa and simply stay as a tourist

 

[NativeBob]

11 hours ago, Presnock said:

US folks lost over 5 BILLION dollars in cryptocurrencies last year - doesn't sound that attractive to me.

that was trading funny coins like DOGE etc. but you can always buy USDT on Binance and cash it P2P in Thailand. I do, my friends do. 10 minutes.

[Ben Zioner]

6 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

They are doing exactly the opposite to what they have said they want to do - attract well off 'desirable' retired Expats.

This would become true once they remove the LTR visa.

[Gottfrid]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Not salary.  Under discussion is capital gains from sales of stocks or mutual funds.

 

In your home country losses offset gains.  You make $20K on one fund, you lose $20K on another - loss offsets the gain, $0 profit, $0 tax.

 

Thailand does not allow for offsetting gains with losses, so you will be paying tax to Thailand on $20K you earned overseas as ordinary income.

Ok, are you 100% sure about that?

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, Gottfrid said:

Ok, are you 100% sure about that?

Yes, that is true.

[MalcolmB]

10 hours ago, NedR69 said:

My top 3 reasons is clean air, water and safety, with a slew of other crap to deal with here.  The proposed tax, would unlikely  impact me, and if it did likely only a small amount.  And that is a good enough reason with all the other crap in this country.  

It is way too hot here for snowflakes.

[Unamerican]

15 hours ago, MalcolmB said:

They do not have high tax rates anyway.

Are you sure: with what regimes are you comparing the rates?  

I believe that in the good ol’ US of A you do not pay an6 tax on your first 60,000usd per annum of income!! 

[zmisha]

18 hours ago, zakalwe said:

The golden goose is the stupid tourist, not the savvy expat.

Immigration officers in any country become very kind once they see that population is decreasing very fast in the country. I think we will see a small decrease in population of Thailand in the nearest 1-2 year. And the next 3-4 year the decrease will be obvious for everyone. Subsequently, stopping depopulation by welcoming immigrants will be the most probable solution for this even in Thailand.
And the followers of the traditional approach to immigration policies will be forced to retreat.

Edited September 11 by zmisha

[Unamerican]

On 8/24/2024 at 8:37 AM, jimgilly said:

It looks to me like he signed a document where he admitted he was planning to defraud the insurance company otherwise there is no other proof of a crime from what I read. 

 

If he signed a document he didn't understand then he made a serious mistake and now he is paying for it.  I personally know other expats who did the same and ended up on the other side of the law. 

 

Bottom line is never ever sign your name to anything you don't understand no matter if you're being coerced to do so because it will never end well.  In any event, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Mine definitely does not know amy thing about me! 

[Rob Browder]

16 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

16 extensions and all by the book, pay tax in the UK on my 3 small pensions, so they want to tax me again, unfortunately I'm not in the position to leave so I will have to do what they decide to do in the future, doubt I would be able to afford 2 tax bills.

Just done my new extension so I'm okay untill 2025.

I don't have any bank accounts in the UK only Thailand.

Isn't your UK pension protected by the double-tax treaty?   I know the USA Social-Security is by our treaty, and thought I read a Brit say they had the same.   

 

The only people this would affect are those with significant income beyond retirement payments, or without a good dual-tax treaty - but, sadly for Thailand, that includes those who spend the most here. 

 

Now, at least 1/2 of their spending-money will be spent elsewhere - and many will leave permanently to where they are not taxed.  And for what - to pay for the "digital wallet" CCP-money spy-and-control scheme's Billions is debt-spending?

 

But, just look at Immigration at Bangkok Airports - refusing entry to repeat-customers who spend their money here - even falsifying the reason for denying entry to do it - all to get them to pay through their agent-partners. 

 

And it isn't just us foreigners.  Ask any Thai what happens when they have to deal with a govt-agency - some form of extortion is highly-likely.  All the little sub-fiefdoms here are so caught up in their own little greedy schemes - none give a dang about Thai people or the good of the country. 

Thais deserve better than this.  We at least have multiple other options - but they don't.

[tomacht8]

3 hours ago, Fortunateson said:

I have a similar plan, but 

I strongly suspect that once the global tax change goes into effect, the “stay in Thailand less than 180 days” loophole will also be closed.  Thailand will simply require residence visa holders to be resident in Thailand for 180 days, or the visa will be cancelled.  This is a requirement in most countries for residence visas.  Fir example, take a look at Portugal or UK requirements to be in country 180 days to retain the visa.  If it comes to this, I will give up my visa and simply stay as a tourist

 

The immigration and tax authorities working together in a coordinated manner will not happen any time soon. There is no central data network at all. And there are still many hurdles.

 

What about those who want to extend their annual stay between January and March but have not yet submitted their tax return for the old year? As a taxpayer, if you know that you must pay something, submit your tax return on the last possible day (in Thailand March 31st). How long does it take the regional tax offices to prepare the tax invoice, including the specific DTA of my home country? That the regional Tax Somchai should be able to calculate this correctly with his Excel 95 program so that I receive my tax OK document so that I can apply for my annual extension? Lol

 

Or what generally happens if you were in Thailand for fewer than 180 days a year in the previous year. Will you then be denied the extension for another year (which in 99% of all cases overlapping 2years, i.e. does not correspond to the calendar year)?

 

Or what happens if I swap for 2 weeks between March 25th. and April 10th.  my place of residence with TM30 notification? That would mean that on March 31st. another regional tax office would be responsible for me. Currently it will probably take at least many months for this information to travel from regional tax office Ban Nok in Nongkai to the tax office in Ban Durian in Surattani. 

Edited Wednesday at 04:54 PM by tomacht8

[Unamerican]

33 minutes ago, Rob Browder said:

Isn't your UK pension protected by the double-tax treaty?   I know the USA Social-Security is by our treaty, and thought I read a Brit say they had the same.   

 

No it is not.  And why is the US treaty relevant?? 

[Danderman123]

3 hours ago, Fortunateson said:

I have a similar plan, but 

I strongly suspect that once the global tax change goes into effect, the “stay in Thailand less than 180 days” loophole will also be closed.  Thailand will simply require residence visa holders to be resident in Thailand for 180 days, or the visa will be cancelled.  This is a requirement in most countries for residence visas.  Fir example, take a look at Portugal or UK requirements to be in country 180 days to retain the visa.  If it comes to this, I will give up my visa and simply stay as a tourist

 

Do you think they will enforce the motorcycle helmet laws anytime soon?

[Rob Browder]

44 minutes ago, Unamerican said:

No it is not.  And why is the US treaty relevant?? 

I thought I read a quote from a UK citizen, quoting your double-tax treaty with that info.   I am sorry to hear if you aren't protected from being taxed on pension-income by your treaty.

[Rob Browder]

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

Or what generally happens if you were in Thailand for fewer than 180 days a year in the previous year. Will you then be denied the extension for another year (which in 99% of all cases overlapping 2years, i.e. does not correspond to the calendar year)?

How long you were in Thailand the previous year is easily visible in your passport.  Less than 180 days = no income-taxes due on foreign income - remitted or otherwise.

 

As to those required to pay tax, proof of submitting your Thai return should be sufficient for Immigration purposes - if/when Immigration require such. 

 

But, another scenario, is - if the tax-authorities have a problem with you, then they would flag you in a system which immigration checks before issuing extensions or stamping you out of the country. 

[aussienam]

19 hours ago, norsurin said:

Agree..i used to stay about 180 days before.Had a house.Now i dont owing anything and just rent or stay in hotel 3-4 months a year I dont take any chances about Thailand anymore.

It is getting riskier and riskier staying here.  And cost benefit analysis?  There is no cost benefit if all these taxes come to fruition. Zero benefit for the expat. 

In my opinion, now that this is all being proposed, mentioned by government, etc: it means there are many financial risks staying here in Thailand.

 

Global taxation means risk of taxing offshore wealth, sale of personal assets and preserved funds (such as Superannuation) where tax exemptions and discounts would normally mean zero to minimal tax, could be taxed at much higher rates by Thailand. Unremitted money being taxed?  Money not destined for Thailand taxed?Nightmare scenario. 

 

Massive headaches filing tax paperwork, double accountants (more expenses) and early tax reports for mismatched financial years in countries where tax years end different months.  

The ones that are 'tut tutting' the rest of us, are generally those who have their own circumstances where they are tax-exempt, pay taxes already via business etc in Thailand, have a tax advantage paying tax here or are just masochists.  The majority of us do not have any advantage whatsoever. 

 

Anyone buying a condo or a new car this year, or any other big ticket item from remitted money is crazy IMO.  You could face a massive massive tax bill, making that purchase a huge capital loss overall and therefore a very bad investment.  I will not be buying any more condo or items here, am planning to exit and spending frugally.  I may be taxed a bit next year but that will be the last time.  And ready for an exodus. 

[aussienam]

11 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I think you are right. But you are referring to the wealthy and middle class Thais - IMO the majority of Thais (such as those whose votes dont count) want Expats to stay and more to come.  But not only does their votes not count, their opinions and wants dont count either. 

 

If you recall, in September 2023 there was an article in the BP that was from TAT, and it spoke of the decline in Expats working and living in Thailand (especially the Japanese and Koreans), and it stated that "The Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT) is dedicating 2024 to expats by offering benefits to this segment.  Thapanee Kiatphaibool, the TAT governor, said the agency is preparing privileges for expats including perks they have requested for many years, such as lowering entrance fees to national parks and other attractions to the same rate as Thais."

 

And then not long after TRD announced they are going to include Expats in the 'new taxation regime' and the TAT Expat Program disappeared into the great black hole that is full of previous Thai Govt statements, promises and proposals. 

Yeah, let's dangle that carrot 🥕 - expats farangs can now pay Thai rates to national parks, ...... but we we are going to absolutely smash you with tax.  That's fair?  How about it!  

[geisha]

19 hours ago, StevieAus said:

You are correct most countries have legislation preventing the disclosure of information. 

I rightly have to go through a rigorous check list if I ring my pension fund in Australia.

I rang my Aus bank recently and was on speaker they heard my wife and said she had to leave the room while they spoke to me. 

That's why the income method for the retirement extension stopped most countries including  Australia wouldn't disclose the information for  Thai Immigration

With all the Russians in Thailand with their villas / businesses etc, I’d love to know how the Thai authorities are going to find their worldly possessions and bank accounts.

[geisha]

5 hours ago, Fortunateson said:

I have a similar plan, but 

I strongly suspect that once the global tax change goes into effect, the “stay in Thailand less than 180 days” loophole will also be closed.  Thailand will simply require residence visa holders to be resident in Thailand for 180 days, or the visa will be cancelled.  This is a requirement in most countries for residence visas.  Fir example, take a look at Portugal or UK requirements to be in country 180 days to retain the visa.  If it comes to this, I will give up my visa and simply stay as a tourist

 

But what about the new 60 days exempt ??  You  think they can tax bona fide tourists?? 

[Banana7]

54 minutes ago, geisha said:

With all the Russians in Thailand with their villas / businesses etc, I’d love to know how the Thai authorities are going to find their worldly possessions and bank accounts.

In many countries that signed onto that new international tax treaty, like Canada, they are asking for certification of tax status. Canada has just started rolling out the process for everyone that has investment or bank accounts. Attached is one of the forms used in Canada. It collects tax ids in other countries so it will be easy to accumulate and share all income data with relevant countries.

[tomacht8]

3 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

How long you were in Thailand the previous year is easily visible in your passport.  Less than 180 days = no income-taxes due on foreign income - remitted or otherwise.

 

As to those required to pay tax, proof of submitting your Thai return should be sufficient for Immigration purposes - if/when Immigration require such. 

 

But, another scenario, is - if the tax-authorities have a problem with you, then they would flag you in a system which immigration checks before issuing extensions or stamping you out of the country. 

That's not what I meant. I see a problem in the synchronization of taxes and immigration dates.

 

Example: Someone has their annual extention appointment at Immigration on January 15th. His permit to stay in Thailand expires on February 14th. He submits all documents to Immigrarion on January 15th, except his tax OK certificate. However, according to tax law, he is only obliged to submit his tax return by March 31st at the latest. What happens now to this foreigner? Will his application be rejected just because he doesn't have his tax certificate? or can't do it in time. Must he leave then Thailand on Februar 14th because he can not get his tax Ok paper so quick? For example, if someone applies for their annual extension to immigration in October, it will be easier for them. The regional tax office will probably have processed his tax case by October (April 1 to October would be enough time).

 

There will be in practice a timing problem within two Thai institutions.

Edited Wednesday at 10:00 PM by tomacht8

[Danderman123]

3 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

How long you were in Thailand the previous year is easily visible in your passport.  Less than 180 days = no income-taxes due on foreign income - remitted or otherwise.

 

Nope.

 

No more exit stamps when departing Suvarnabhumi, unless you demand a stamp.