Don’t kill the golden goose! Tax reforms may drive away expats

[Presnock]

3 minutes ago, MartinL said:

A Thai national living in Thailand is entitled to the £12,570 tax free allowance available to UK citizens. 0% tax on that amount then 20% up to about £50 k. There's some paperwork involved - isn't there always!! - but probably worth it if her inherited pension is a reasonable amount.

 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm10340

Yes seems that theUK govt favors the foreigners more than their own natives based on forum inputs.

[Wrwest]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Spending by Western expats is miniscule by comparison to the larger picture, many have an unrealistic view of our worth. By various estimates there are around 300k Western expats in Thailand as well as 2.7 million other foreigners, mostly from neighbouring countries. Some seem to think that just because a foreigner spends 100k a month and their Thai neighbour earns only 35k a month that it makes a difference to GDP or the national economy. At best that impact is only 3% of GDP and that is if all 300k leave tomorrow. Those people living in tourist ghettos such as Pattaya probably don't see that because they think they are in the majority, elsewhere the picture is very different.

Why would it be deemed wise to chase off that steady annual 3%?

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, Sig said:

I don't believe there are many wealthy individuals who would care to have residency in Thailand. There are so many better alternatives. Of course, "wealthy" can be defined different ways and granted my hometown area is an expensive area, so my idea may be a bit more than some, but to me, if you don't have AT LEAST 4-5 million USD (approx. 170 million THB) in net worth and somewhere around 600-800k USD (20-27 million THB) per year income, then I don't think you qualify, as I don't. Back home, I have a good number of friends and family who do (the median house costing between 2 to 3 million there, it's no surprise that I know a lot of such people), and they would never dream of residency in Thailand! They'd laugh.

So, I don't know how much of a "golden goose" foreigner's income is.... Of course, the foreigners in Thailand who aren't necessarily wealthy, but have plenty enough, add up to a fair amount, so I suppose arguments could be made re this tax policy change dream of theirs. But I don't think it's as significant as some make it out to be. But, the bad feelings and bad looks would affect things with keeping people away and driving some out.

Banks/governments around the world have gotten more and more restrictive and share more information than ever before. The wealthy are able to create structures to protect their wealth and some who were smart enough, have been able to do some of that through cryptocurrency, although that is getting more difficult these days as governments put in place more and more restrictions and dish out more threats to crypto exchanges. It's even difficult to buy gold without AML laws and KYC regulations screwing with you these days, although a lot easier in some countries than others... but then transporting it... lol
Keeping one's wealth to oneself is getting more and more difficult.

[Presnock]

Just now, Presnock said:

1 hour ago, Sig said:

I don't believe there are many wealthy individuals who would care to have residency in Thailand. There are so many better alternatives. Of course, "wealthy" can be defined different ways and granted my hometown area is an expensive area, so my idea may be a bit more than some, but to me, if you don't have AT LEAST 4-5 million USD (approx. 170 million THB) in net worth and somewhere around 600-800k USD (20-27 million THB) per year income, then I don't think you qualify, as I don't. Back home, I have a good number of friends and family who do (the median house costing between 2 to 3 million there, it's no surprise that I know a lot of such people), and they would never dream of residency in Thailand! They'd laugh.

So, I don't know how much of a "golden goose" foreigner's income is.... Of course, the foreigners in Thailand who aren't necessarily wealthy, but have plenty enough, add up to a fair amount, so I suppose arguments could be made re this tax policy change dream of theirs. But I don't think it's as significant as some make it out to be. But, the bad feelings and bad looks would affect things with keeping people away and driving some out.

Banks/governments around the world have gotten more and more restrictive and share more information than ever before. The wealthy are able to create structures to protect their wealth and some who were smart enough, have been able to do some of that through cryptocurrency, although that is getting more difficult these days as governments put in place more and more restrictions and dish out more threats to crypto exchanges. It's even difficult to buy gold without AML laws and KYC regulations screwing with you these days, although a lot easier in some countries than others... but then transporting it... lol
Keeping one's wealth to oneself is getting more and more difficult.

Expand  

There was a note in US news today, forgot source but I will pass it on anyway - US folks lost over 5 BILLION dollars in cryptocurrencies last year - doesn't sound that attractive to me.

[chiang mai]

51 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

What you say is non sense if it is as you say that we do not count for anything then why tax us also on our global income?

 

So they have surely calculated that there is a lot of $$$$ coming soon.

 

This change to the tax laws is not aimed at you or other paranoid foreigners, you are collateral damage and nothing more, get over yourselves, you're not that important to the Thai economy. Some foreigners seem to think they are one of 300,000 rich people living in a jungle of 70 million poor people which is not even close to reality.

[jesimps]

4 hours ago, FridgeMagnet1 said:

Ha ha, good lord. Describing the sad old soaks who retire to Thailand as the “Golden Goose”

We do bring rather a lot of foreign currency into the country, provide jobs for Thais in general and provide homes for Thai wives. On top of that, we very rarely give the government any problems, in fact we're probably the most law-abiding group in the land. I'd go further than saying we're the golden goose, more like manna from heaven. Guarantee the UK would prefer to have a group like us than the present demographic flooding the country.

[Trippy]

I wonder if the girls working in the go-go's making 100,000 baht or more a month in cash are paying any taxes?

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, zyphodb said:

 

Thexsin and family farang friendly? you gotta be kidding...

Even if the Shinawat family loved expats, if they were to be kicked out it seem Anutin is striving to become the next PM, he will definitely have the support of the hopheads and he has always "disliked" farangs. Just saying...better I think to have this govt last a while and hopefully the economy will survive the worldwide recession that appears to be approaching.  Good luck to all.

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, Wrwest said:

Why would it be deemed wise to chase off that steady annual 3%?

That 3% is not being chased off, AN polls have already confirmed that less than 5% of of members will leave as a result of the tax rule change. There's a lot of chest beating on this issue by foreigners but that's just noise. Most have either not done their sums on this or are just making noise out of frustration and anger. Younger guys who are highly mobile may reverse an earlier decision to live here but so what. The settled guys with homes and families here  aren't going anywhere, neither are the pensioners. 

[GTNZ]

4 hours ago, FridgeMagnet1 said:

Ha ha, good lord. Describing the sad old soaks who retire to Thailand as the “Golden Goose”

Not all  retirees in Thailand are "sad old soaks"

[motdaeng]

1 minute ago, GTNZ said:

Not all  retirees in Thailand are "sad old soaks"

 

but a lot ....

[AllanA]

I think a lot of people who have been looking forward to retirement in Thailand  are now thinking of a B Plan, a different Asian country where their money is their money and not tax if they retire in Thailand. Most people’s earnings are already taxed in their own country and to then have Thailand tax your income again is just not affordable to most so I’m sure a lot of expats will sell up and move to a neighbouring country and live in happiness and the new retiree’s will forget their Thailand retirement plan and pick another country with less headache with tax and visas etc. 

I think Thailands new tax will scare off all retirees from coming altogether. 

[DrPhibes]

So, a lot of this has to do with reporting and ability to enforce this potential new Thai tax situation for us as tax residents.  I am an American citizen.  Thailand participates in FATCA Model 1 where Thailand reports my accounts in Thailand to the US but the US does not report accounts to Thailand.  The US does not participate in CRS so no information to Thailand through that system.  If Thailand wants a Tax Clearance letter from the IRS, it only says I have filed my returns and they are paid up.  It offers no information about income, so nothing there.  So, Thailand trying to find out what I have in the US is impossible at this point so it makes enforcement due to discovery of my US accounts pretty much impossible.   A good chunk going forward being brought into Thailand will be my Social Security which is not taxable to Thailand according to the DTA. However, If they ask for my US income tax returns, I'm leaving.

[brianthainess]

5 hours ago, zakalwe said:

The golden goose is the stupid tourist, not the savvy expat.

Not only that, that goose is white not Golden.....see how savvy I am.....I'm not fooled that easily................

[Robert Tyrrell]

Good Morning , 🙂

 

 

I'm glad my Country does not have a DTA Agreement / Aka Double Taxation Agreement with Thailand and for all good reason !!! 🙂 

1. The writer of this articale is very correct the backbone of Foriengners that Retire here put lots of money into the Thia Economy are going to pull the plug on Thailand !!!.

2, The United States of America does not allow double taxation, It is Illegal !!!! American Pensions are taxed during your working years CANNOT AND WILL NOT !! TAX US AGAIN THAILAND !!!

 

Sometimes or more times Thailand has no problem shooting there foot off ,  Stupid !!!!

[MarkBR]

16 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

That 3% is not being chased off, AN polls have already confirmed that less than 5% of of members will leave as a result of the tax rule change. There's a lot of chest beating on this issue by foreigners but that's just noise. Most have either not done their sums on this or are just making noise out of frustration and anger. Younger guys who are highly mobile may reverse an earlier decision to live here but so what. The settled guys with homes and families here  aren't going anywhere, neither are the pensioners. 

The concern is the rich expats who have the ability to move far more easily (top 10% in terms of income).  Few Thais care about the poorer expats least of all HiSo Thais).

[kingstonkid]

4 hours ago, NemoH said:

The problem is that the Thai government have never cherished or respected this golden goose.
 

Expats are a silent minority in Thailand that is totally ignored by Thai government except when it comes to taking money from us.. we are discriminated against in pricing, enjoy no benefits as citizens but yet we directly n loyally support the entire Thai economy with our consistent spendings from Bangkok to Issan.

By shrinking Expat spendings, the whole Thai economy will now have to depend on the whimsical, seasonal and unpredictable tourism where all other countries will be competing with them. This tax will be the government ‘robbing’ from the very same support from which Thai economy gets its support and the ultimate real losers will be the Thai economy n the Thai common folks. 
 

The immediate glee n greed for this tax will bring long term repercussions spread to the entire Thai economy. 
 

At the end of the day, it’s just another transfer of wealth n robbing from the spendings to be earned by the Thai common folks to the government.

If I am going to pay taxes the same as a Thai then I should be given the same benefits as a Thai.  I should be able to use the thai medical system at the same expense as a Thai and should be able to won a house.

[bdenner]

35 minutes ago, MartinL said:

A Thai national living in Thailand is entitled to the £12,570 tax free allowance available to UK citizens. 0% tax on that amount then 20% up to about £50 k. There's some paperwork involved - isn't there always!! - but probably worth it if her inherited pension is a reasonable amount.

 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-and-remittance-basis/rdrm10340    (about halfway down the page)

Thank you for that, will get the TW's step son (executor, living in the UK and doing the leg work over there for them) to look into this.

[atpeace]

3 hours ago, StevieAus said:

You are correct most countries have legislation preventing the disclosure of information. 

I rightly have to go through a rigorous check list if I ring my pension fund in Australia.

I rang my Aus bank recently and was on speaker they heard my wife and said she had to leave the room while they spoke to me. 

That's why the income method for the retirement extension stopped most countries including  Australia wouldn't disclose the information for  Thai Immigration

Easy to do with their own citizens but near impossible with non-citizens.  We aren't the target and the many Thais that are dodging taxes are the target.   If we get caught up in any new tax law the it will more than likely just be  a pain in the butt but without incurring financial losses. Those expats that are also dodging taxes here might have a reason to fear new regs.  

 

Wait and see is my stance and have a good laugh watching others lose it!

Edited September 11 by atpeace

[mfd101]

18 minutes ago, Robert Tyrrell said:

Good Morning , 🙂

 

 

I'm glad my Country does not have a DTA Agreement / Aka Double Taxation Agreement with Thailand and for all good reason !!! 🙂 

1. The writer of this articale is very correct the backbone of Foriengners that Retire here put lots of money into the Thia Economy are going to pull the plug on Thailand !!!.

2, The United States of America does not allow double taxation, It is Illegal !!!! American Pensions are taxed during your working years CANNOT AND WILL NOT !! TAX US AGAIN THAILAND !!!

 

Sometimes or more times Thailand has no problem shooting there foot off ,  Stupid !!!!

So if your 'home' country has a DTA with Thailand - as most expats' home countries certainly do - then what's the problem? The DTA is designed to PREVENT double taxation, not to ENABLE it!!!

Edited September 11 by mfd101

[Sig]

3 hours ago, topt said:

 

Suggest you guys read up on CRS - Common reporting Standards

Here is a link from a bank to start you off

https://www.crs.hsbc.com/en/frequently-asked-questions

Yep, gone are the days where there was no such thing. I remember opening a bank account in Japan in the 1980's with no problem at all on a research visa. And in Thailand in the 90's on a tourist visa. No documents other than a passport required. Thankfully, I still have 2 accounts open in Thailand from when it was simple. I don't know how they'd grandfather me into their reporting system without me signing something... but I do remember, back in around 2011 or 2012?, I went to open an account in another bank and they gave me US tax documents to fill out!! I was shocked. What on earth is a Thai bank giving me U.S. Internal Revenue Service documents for!? They said it is required now... some new law (i.e., threats from the U.S. Federal Reserve/U.S. Treasury). So, I said, see ya! Turned around and walked out. The intrusiveness of governments in banking is astounding. I saw one post in here from an Australian who seemed certain that he was safe from such reporting as the CRS... he'd be shocked to find that Australia has signed on to the system. At least 120 countries have signed on to it. You can thank the U.S. government for this invasiveness, it started with them, as does any financial tomfoolery, it seems. And guess what! If you are not a U.S. Resident and living in the U.S., you don't have to worry about CRS! The country that started the whole stupid thing doesn't practice it. The U.S. has another set of laws that screws its own citizens even worse than CRS and they don't seem to care about tracking/reporting foreigners to their respective countries! A nearby option, if one really likes SE Asia and might be affected terribly by CRS - the Philippines and Cambodia have yet to sign on to CRS. Who knows if they ever will....

Edited September 11 by Sig

[MartinL]

16 minutes ago, bdenner said:

Thank you for that, will get the TW's step son (executor, living in the UK and doing the leg work over there for them) to look into this.

This might also be useful.

 

https://www.gov.uk/tax-uk-income-live-abroad/personal-allowance

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Sorry to hear you are a boomer.... not many years left for ya !

Witty answer of the year IMHO.

[Gcart]

3 hours ago, Andycoops said:

How the hell are they going to find out what your worldwide income is?

 

As a expat here.

 

If you have multiple bank accounts in multiple countries, like some people I know and you tell them you have 1 account in 1 country.

 

They have no way of knowing anything different.

 

Totally absurd.

Actually they have. Thailand joined the CRS last year

[4MyEgo]

6 hours ago, webfact said:

With many expatriates considering leaving and economic challenges looming, a comprehensive debate on the proposed tax changes is crucial.

 

 

Amen to that, as I am already planning my exit if it gets the nod of approval, e.g. paying tax on income remitted to Thailand from 1 January 2024, ok, granted, can't do much about that so to speak, but now they want to tax me on what I make overseas, NEVER going to happen, it will be time to move one and that will mean just over 1 million baht less revenue to Thailand per year.

[mokwit]

2 hours ago, tomazbodner said:

before Thaksin came to power, it was free for all.

This is the Thailand before the Kong Raan Chin, Naa Liem that we fondly remember.

[CharlesHolzhauer]

5 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

[...]and that will mean just over 1 million baht less revenue to Thailand per year.

Wow, THB1 million! The Thai government may reconsider, bow to those in similar situations, and beg you to stay.

[bbbbooboo]

hmmmm…no that would be far too sensible. Remember where we are?

[4MyEgo]

18 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Wow, THB1 million! The Thai government may reconsider, bow to those in similar situations, and beg you to stay.

 

Your not a very bright spark are you, try X's that by how many other Xpats are also considering leaving, and how much they contribute to Thailand's economy, obviously you didn't do well in math.

 

I shouldn't have to say that this would have a major impact, especially for investment in Thailand, anyways, back to your long neck.

[maddox41]

This isn't legal any way also if your lucky enough to be one of the 60 counties that have a double tax treaty agreement it isn't a problem just more paper work. 

ie) Australia has one with Thailand. 

So you do your tax return in Australia  pay your tax  then translate it into to Thai and submit  yes more money and a new industry for Thai accounting or law firms to do it for you. 

Also still legal to give a gift to your Thai wife  of 20 mill usd per year   and taxed at 5% . 

Here is the issue for Thailand 

If your paying 35% income tax in your country where all your funds are held  and then pay  another 30 % to Thailand Revenue for money that has never ever entered Thailand  you be left with 35 % of your income  why would you ?

Thailand is still a cash society  Digital  banking is yrs behind the Western  world so my people be bringing in money and living of your cash and Thais love cash. OR  You stay 180 days a yr  or under or move to another place like Vietnam etc 

What they don't get is your spending anyway   your living there paying vat, rent rates, bills and living costs . 

Paying 5 % tax on yr our money coming into Thailand you can live with but not at their current tax rate scale not going to happen. 

Remember Thais play a short game not the long game hence why it's a sh.. Storm constantly. 

If this happens it will be a huge long time issue for Thailand. 

But they change their minds constantly look at the 60 day VOA  from 2025 you need a ETV to enter they have no idea .