Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[JackGats]

1 hour ago, stat said:

Most banks back off if you explain to them that so far TH did not enforce a TIN on you if you did not have a working permit. The country to which a crs report is send is determinded by your "tax residence" at the end of the year. However TH and many other countries demand 180 days plus for a tax residence while for the bank a legal residence is considered a "tax residence".

I understand all that. My point was you may end up without any documented tax residence, in which case any country where you spend some months,  or where you are banking, or of which you are a citizen, is allowed to claim you as taxpayer.

Edited July 2 by JackGats
Spelling

[andre47]

2 hours ago, JackGats said:

I understand all that. My point was you may end up without any documented tax residence, in which case any country where you spend some months,  or where you are banking, or of which you are a citizen, is allowed to claim you as taxpayer.

"documented tax residence"
good point...Is it enough to have a Thai TIN and can proof to stay more than 180 days in the country or is a tax residency certificate necessary?

[stat]

2 hours ago, JackGats said:

I understand all that. My point was you may end up without any documented tax residence, in which case any country where you spend some months,  or where you are banking, or of which you are a citizen, is allowed to claim you as taxpayer.

What makes you think that any country where you spend some month is "allowed" to claim you as a tax resident? Every country has its own law of when you become a tax resident. If you do not fall under it then this country cannot claim you a tax resident, period. Perfectly viable and legal.

 

Never ever does a country claim you a tax resident when you just bank in the country, no offense but pls do not make several assumptions when you have not at least spend some time on the subject.

 

NB: Paying witholding tax on a TH bank account  has little to do with being a tax resident

Edited July 2 by stat

[stat]

26 minutes ago, andre47 said:

"documented tax residence"
good point...Is it enough to have a Thai TIN and can proof to stay more than 180 days in the country or is a tax residency certificate necessary?

Tax residency certificate is needed when you want to claim a DTA treatment "better withholding tax rate for example" in some situations.

 

If you move to TH your bank asks you state tax residency TH. However you will only be tax resident after 179 days and beforehand you have moved on so you never had a tax residency.

[JackGats]

1 hour ago, andre47 said:

"documented tax residence"
good point...Is it enough to have a Thai TIN and can proof to stay more than 180 days in the country or is a tax residency certificate necessary?

Thai TIN + your passport with stamps should be proof enough. With both you can even get an RO-22 ad hoc certificate from the Thais for a particular year.

[ukrules]

4 hours ago, JackGats said:

I understand all that. My point was you may end up without any documented tax residence, in which case any country where you spend some months,  or where you are banking, or of which you are a citizen, is allowed to claim you as taxpayer.

Nonsense, it's quite acceptable to have no tax residence and you're not going to find countries competing for your residence - the rules are very clear and normally about the number of days. In Thailand it's 180 days.

 

I can remember reading that there might be one or two countries out there who 'ensnare' their own citizens when they don't have another tax residency after leaving their country of citizenship - but that's definitely not the norm - probably Germany or some Scandinavian country where they like tax everyone almost to death every year.

 

One example, the UK currently uses an automatic test - if you don't go there for more than 15 days per year then that's it - no possibility of you being deemed a tax resident - but there's no escaping paying tax on any money earned in the UK, even while you're non resident - that seems to be pretty much the same everywhere.

 

There's more to it than that - but for the UK if you leave and simply don't go back - you're out. No need to fill out any forms either these days unless you've overpaid and want a refund. The system has changed a bit over the last 10 years or so

 

Edited July 2 by ukrules

[JackGats]

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

...

 

One example, the UK currently uses an automatic test - if you don't go there for more than 15 days per year then that's it - no possibility of you being deemed a tax resident - but there's no escaping paying tax on any money earned in the UK, even while you're non resident - that seems to be pretty much the same everywhere.

 

There's more to it than that - but for the UK if you leave and simply don't go back - you're out. No need to fill out any forms either these days unless you've overpaid and want a refund. The system has changed a bit over the last 10 years or so

 

15 days per year? How horrible! If you still have a mother or a brother living in the UK, how are you not going to spend at least 2 weeks there?

[ukrules]

37 minutes ago, JackGats said:

15 days per year? How horrible! If you still have a mother or a brother living in the UK, how are you not going to spend at least 2 weeks there?

 

That's the number of days when they can not count you as tax resident - you can spend far more days there if you want but they come with various conditions attached. There is a hard limit subject to various interpretations and 'ties' tests of 90 days. But 15 days or less and it is not possible to be tax resident.

 

Then again I haven't been over to the UK for about 12 years. If my family want to see me then they come here or send me a message on facebook.

Edited July 2 by ukrules

[stat]

3 hours ago, ukrules said:

Nonsense, it's quite acceptable to have no tax residence and you're not going to find countries competing for your residence - the rules are very clear and normally about the number of days. In Thailand it's 180 days.

 

I can remember reading that there might be one or two countries out there who 'ensnare' their own citizens when they don't have another tax residency after leaving their country of citizenship - but that's definitely not the norm - probably Germany or some Scandinavian country where they like tax everyone almost to death every year.

 

One example, the UK currently uses an automatic test - if you don't go there for more than 15 days per year then that's it - no possibility of you being deemed a tax resident - but there's no escaping paying tax on any money earned in the UK, even while you're non resident - that seems to be pretty much the same everywhere.

 

There's more to it than that - but for the UK if you leave and simply don't go back - you're out. No need to fill out any forms either these days unless you've overpaid and want a refund. The system has changed a bit over the last 10 years or so

 

Good post! Germany is not ensnaring you, you can leave without a new tax residency. But correct Germany is a hellhole tax wise and beautiful otherwise IMHO.

 

You are right there are some countries who only let you "out" if their tax residency if you prove a new tax residency but there are only a few currently.

[jwest10]

18 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You can claim your wife's Personal Allowance of 60k, only if you file a joint return.

 

Your UK savings are not at risk, either now or in the future, because they are savings and not income.

Mike thanks again just a minute or so ago got an email from Carl Turner the expat tax expert stating if you are still in Thailand then you are past the 180 days and now a tax resident and he is suggesting that if one as an individual has 120K Baht income or 200k joint ie wife then you must submit a tax return and assume locally.
Ok so far but it is not on the Statue Book as yet, unless I have missed it but yes asked a Thai friend about this issue and they have not heard of it and the forms are not in English.
So what do we do to await the English version? 

My wife does not and has not filed  ever a tax return and does not work full stop so she has to file a return?

Think sort of saw the Thai  version and I not sure where but sure on this site but what to do now and act in Dec/Jan

Thank Mike and all
John West

Edited July 3 by jwest10

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, jwest10 said:

Mike thanks again just a minute or so ago got an email from Carl Turner the expat tax expert stating if you are still in Thailand then you are past the 180 days and now a tax resident and he is suggesting that if one as an individual has 120K Baht income or 200k joint ie wife then you must submit a tax return and assume locally.
Ok so far but it is not on the Statue Book as yet, unless I have missed it but yes asked a Thai friend about this issue and they have not heard of it and the forms are not in English.
So what do we do to await the English version? 

My wife does not and has not filed  ever a tax return and does not work full stop so she has to file a return?

Think sort of saw the Thai  version and I not sure where but sure on this site but what to do now and act in Dec/Jan

Thank Mike and all
John West

The tax advisor is broadly correct but the tax return does not need to be filed until after 1 January next year (and before 31 March). The tax forms are available in ENglish language, I'll try and send you a link later today. That said, the forms may well be redesigned before the end of the year so probably best all round to just wait.

 

Even though your wife doesn't work, you can both file a joint return to take advantage of her personal allowance.

[jwest10]

45 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The tax advisor is broadly correct but the tax return does not need to be filed until after 1 January next year (and before 31 March). The tax forms are available in ENglish language, I'll try and send you a link later today. That said, the forms may well be redesigned before the end of the year so probably best all round to just wait.

 

Even though your wife doesn't work, you can both file a joint return to take advantage of her personal allowance.

Thanks again, Mike and the other allowances would show and yes think many like myself will not have  much more than 500K  per annum
There again will they chase those with similar incomes but never go for the big fish here and around the world!!!

Edited July 3 by jwest10

[jwest10]

5 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Thanks again, Mike and the other allowances would show and yes think many like myself will not have  much more than 500K  per annum
There again will they chase those with similar incomes but never go for the big fish here and around the world!!!

Mike and have tried the local sites re this  issue but can not find the form and as you say it will probably change but do we sit tight?
Think I will and still many questions not answered but not by you Mike ok.
Thanks agaim for all yur help

 

[stat]

23 hours ago, JackGats said:

Thai TIN + your passport with stamps should be proof enough. With both you can even get an RO-22 ad hoc certificate from the Thais for a particular year.

Nope you also need a R.O. 21 (proof of income payment), yellow book etc. I have contacted 5 different law firms and they also said the same you must have paid income tax or withholding tax on your Thai bank account. BTW the TRD site states the same.

Edited July 3 by stat

[stat]

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The tax advisor is broadly correct but the tax return does not need to be filed until after 1 January next year (and before 31 March). The tax forms are available in ENglish language, I'll try and send you a link later today. That said, the forms may well be redesigned before the end of the year so probably best all round to just wait.

 

Even though your wife doesn't work, you can both file a joint return to take advantage of her personal allowance.

The "funny" part of the 31. Match deadline is that western bank usually take up to April or Mai to provide all the papers needed to calculate the cap gains, dividends which are needed to calculate Thai PIT on your remittance or perhaps on ww income in 2025. And then you need to calculate the whole profit over several accounts, jurisdictions etc so minimum another month or up to 3 months with an accountant.

Edited July 3 by stat

[Mike Lister]

9 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Mike and have tried the local sites re this  issue but can not find the form and as you say it will probably change but do we sit tight?
Think I will and still many questions not answered but not by you Mike ok.
Thanks agaim for all yur help

 

I suggest you sit tight, you have many many months yet.

[Mike Lister]

These discussions about tax have become fragmented and unstructured again. Now spread across several threads that overlap, with posts once again questioning the definition of even the most basic terms (a feature of the first long thread).....they are confusing the average poster rather than helping them, I know this because members have said so and have started to PM me again with queries which takes the discussions offline. The number of views has fallen off in recent weeks, I personally would much prefer the queries are answered in forum so that everyone benefits and the forum benefits.

 

Debates about worldwide income should be kept separate from the present remittance basis, otherwise posters become confused. What happens in Europe is interesting to some but of little direct relevance to what happens in Thailand at present. The things we know about what happens at present in Thailand, should be kept separate from the many varied assumptions and guesses about what might happen here in the future. The majority still seem to be looking for simple answers to simple understood issues, not complex debates about capital gains and the interactions between governments, those things don't interest many and are not relevant to the majority.

 

 

[JohnnyBD]

55 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

These discussions about tax have become fragmented and unstructured again. Now spread across several threads that overlap, with posts once again questioning the definition of even the most basic terms (a feature of the first long thread).....they are confusing the average poster rather than helping them, I know this because members have said so and have started to PM me again with queries which takes the discussions offline. The number of views has fallen off in recent weeks, I personally would much prefer the queries are answered in forum so that everyone benefits and the forum benefits.

 

Debates about worldwide income should be kept separate from the present remittance basis, otherwise posters become confused. What happens in Europe is interesting to some but of little direct relevance to what happens in Thailand at present. The things we know about what happens at present in Thailand, should be kept separate from the many varied assumptions and guesses about what might happen here in the future. The majority still seem to be looking for simple answers to simple understood issues, not complex debates about capital gains and the interactions between governments, those things don't interest many and are not relevant to the majority.

 

 

I agree with you, that's why it's a waste of my time to check this thread everyday. Take care and thanks.

[gamb00ler]

10 hours ago, stat said:

The "funny" part of the 31. Match deadline is that western bank usually take up to April or Mai to provide all the papers needed to calculate the cap gains, dividends which are needed to calculate Thai PIT on your remittance or perhaps on ww income in 2025. And then you need to calculate the whole profit over several accounts, jurisdictions etc so minimum another month or up to 3 months with an accountant.

It's a simple task to calculate your own annual totals for capital gains, dividends and interest based on monthly statements or transaction notices.  I don't think TRD will consider that the annual 1099 (for US) is the only valid reporting document.  In fact that's how I make decisions in the last few days of a taxation year to ensure I maximize my income without crossing the boundary into a higher tax bracket.

[jwest10]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I suggest you sit tight, you have many many months yet.

Thanks again, Mike O really appreciate everything you so, and yes we have all so much on our minds all of the time !!!

[Mike Lister]

31 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

It's a simple task to calculate your own annual totals for capital gains, dividends and interest based on monthly statements or transaction notices.  I don't think TRD will consider that the annual 1099 (for US) is the only valid reporting document.  In fact that's how I make decisions in the last few days of a taxation year to ensure I maximize my income without crossing the boundary into a higher tax bracket.

I agree. The reality is that the proof doesn't have to be provided until/unless requested, that alone should buy some time, in the event somebody asks for it. The process, I think, is to assess, calculate and file, providing proof at a later date, perhaps. Whilst I have never filed a Thai tax return involving CG, and I doubt more than a handful of expats have, I have never been asked to provide proof or confirmation of anything, but there again, I have simple tax affairs in Thailand. 

[Mike Teavee]

3 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

It's a simple task to calculate your own annual totals for capital gains, dividends and interest based on monthly statements or transaction notices.  I don't think TRD will consider that the annual 1099 (for US) is the only valid reporting document.  In fact that's how I make decisions in the last few days of a taxation year to ensure I maximize my income without crossing the boundary into a higher tax bracket.

In the UK you have to calculate your own Capital Gains as your Broker doesn't do it for you, fortunately for me (as a long tern Expat) it's not reportable, if I had to report it I wouldn't know where to start working out the average value* for one of my holdings as:-

1. I've never gone to zero shares on it so some of the shares were acquired >35 years ago.
2. Some of the shares came from Profit Sharing Awards (I used to worked for the company) with bonus shares added for keeping them > 7 years, Scrip Dividends, Exec Share Options, Stock Splits etc...
3. I have occasional sold & repurchased the stock within 30 days when there's been a dip & UK has a 30 day rule which means I would have to revalue the shares as at the price of the shares I sold..

For Dividends it's easy to work out how many shares you had at a date & multiply it by the dividend per share, and how much tax credit is available (IIRC it's 0% on the 1st £1,000 & then 8.75% on everything over this) but (again, as an Expat) "Disregarded Income" rules can come into Play & I'm not familiar with calculating this so rely on my Accountant to calculate it when they file my return (usually 1st week in July, did 2023/24's return 2 Days ago).

 

*Appreciate the US allows you to use different models for which shares you've sold but in the UK we have to use "Average Value" (AKA  "Section 104 holding")

 

 

Edit: I guess the safest way would be to not remit income until after you've got your home country Tax Report (Which for me means remitting most of this year's income in the 2nd half of next year).

 

 

Edited July 4 by Mike Teavee

[topt]

27 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

For Dividends it's easy to work out how many shares you had at a date & multiply it by the dividend per share

HL and II certainly do and I would have thought all the bigger broker companies provide that information at year end just as the banks do. Does your not?

 

But yes it could become painful with the tax year discrepancy - UK vs Thailand.

[Mike Teavee]

50 minutes ago, topt said:

HL and II certainly do and I would have thought all the bigger broker companies provide that information at year end just as the banks do. Does your not?

 

But yes it could become painful with the tax year discrepancy - UK vs Thailand.

For Dividends yes, by law they have to send you an annual CTC showing dividend/interest income (I wait for this before sending the Info to my accountant to file the return) but for Capital Gains no... 

 

Do HL & II show you Capital Gains? TBH I've had some of these shares longer than I've had a Broker so even if my Broker did do it, they couldn't calculate it 100% accurately as neither they (nor I) know the accurate Book Value of all of the Shares... 

 

Edited July 4 by Mike Teavee

[topt]

Just now, Mike Teavee said:

Do HL & II show you Capital Gains (

No. 

[Klonko]

5 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

It's a simple task to calculate your own annual totals for capital gains, dividends and interest based on monthly statements or transaction notices.  I don't think TRD will consider that the annual 1099 (for US) is the only valid reporting document.  In fact that's how I make decisions in the last few days of a taxation year to ensure I maximize my income without crossing the boundary into a higher tax bracket.

Very easy for 50+ transactions per year in a managed portfolio with varying withholding taxes 😉.

[cooked]

AS FAR as I know: expats in Thailand will, from end of September be required to obtain their taxation number (ITN). For this you will need a Thai ID, an easy process if you don't have one but have a Tabien Ban. Taxable persons have until end of March next year to obtain this number (theoretically, not doing so makes you liable to a fine). Whether your visa extension application will be affected by proof of payment or non-payment I rather doubt. 

I asked at our local immigration a month ago and the answer, essentially, was: "Why worry about something that hasn't happened yet?". Plain Text: Nobody knows, wait and see. 

[Presnock]

On 6/30/2024 at 8:03 PM, stat said:

Where do you see the discrepancy? If it is not remitted it is not taxable in 2024. That is what he has stated IMHO.

probably said that the cards used must be from a foreign bank and that payment for the account had to be paid to the bank and not paid to a Thai bank.  This is what several "experts" have said but then again, just as we keep saying, we have to wait to see what the Thai Revenue Department will be ABLE to do in accessing the information from one's bank or if there will not be charges levied against this type of activity.

[Presnock]

17 minutes ago, cooked said:

AS FAR as I know: expats in Thailand will, from end of September be required to obtain their taxation number (ITN). For this you will need a Thai ID, an easy process if you don't have one but have a Tabien Ban. Taxable persons have until end of March next year to obtain this number (theoretically, not doing so makes you liable to a fine). Whether your visa extension application will be affected by proof of payment or non-payment I rather doubt. 

I asked at our local immigration a month ago and the answer, essentially, was: "Why worry about something that hasn't happened yet?". Plain Text: Nobody knows, wait and see. 

where is the change to the tax law on obtaining a Thai Tax Number - law I read says within 60 days of having ASSESSABLE income remitted into Thailand - some of us have not and will not have assessable income remitted into Thailand ever.  Same as having to have to Thai ID to obtain the Taxation Number.  Where did this information come from?  Please advise via this forum.  thanks in advance for the info.

[topt]

29 minutes ago, cooked said:

AS FAR as I know: expats in Thailand will, from end of September be required to obtain their taxation number (ITN). For this you will need a Thai ID

Absolute rubbish..........

End of September - please show a link........(there isn't one)

Thai ID for a Thai Tin - no you don't need.