Your Two Months Rental Deposit

[Umlungu]

On 9/30/2024 at 7:47 AM, JBChiangRai said:

Sorry but as I said before, only some landlords can only charge one month deposit. Specifically, those with 5 or more rental units.

 

Those with less than 5 units can charge 2 months deposit as the new law doesn’t apply to them.

 

I am advised by my lawyer, however you can get free here…

https://www.sunbeltasia.com/new-rental-laws-in-thailand

That is correct. Different rules for owners with 5 or more properties. Those regulations were initially more tenant-friendly, but have been tightened up to now protect the owner. Rental contract vary a lot and the devil is in the detail. Owners need to be precise in their demands and responsibilities covering both parties, and tenants need to read contracts and understand them. Agents need to be more professional in their contracts, the industry is not very well regulated and some agents have no clue how to set out a contract and also subsequently manage their client (be it the tenant or the owner). Most will just pop up a month before end of contract and enquire about an extension, with the sole intent of pocketing another / second monthly rent amount as commission - which is illegal, btw.

[thesetat2013]

12 minutes ago, Umlungu said:

What you say is wrong. The local police agreeing with you is irrelevant - they are not the ones to adjudicate rental law and potential legal issues.

Perhaps i was not clear... i brought my contract to the police that control the area where I live. The landlord was threatening to bring the police and have me evicted for not paying the last month. But in my contract it was clearly stated last months rent was 1 month and damage deposit was another months rent. I made a police report and the police said if she attempted to use them to get me to leave that they would not enforce i and i only needed to show the police report i made. 

[Evil Penevil]

I don't know how common it is, but some farang landlords who rent out through AirBnB in Pattaya do keep the deposit as a scam.  It works like this:

 

The landlord will make a big thing of offering a discount on the monthly rent, but then keep the deposit to make up for the discount.  Say 15,000/month is the "going rate" for a six-month rental of an apartment of a certain size/standard in a certain area.  To attract renters, the landlord will cut the monthly rent to 13,000/month.  However, he gets back the discount plus 1,000 baht by keeping the deposit.   On a one-month rental, the landlord could slash the rent all the way to 10,000/month and earn a much higher margin by keeping the 10,0000 deposit.  

 

Scumbag landlords know farang tourists who are in Thailand for one to six months aren't going to take the matter to court, especially since they haven't really lost that much.  The renter ends up paying what would be the normal going rate. 

 

When I lived in Pattaya, I knew of a farang landlord who'd done this for years.  He finally got in trouble because an irate former tenant reported him to the immigration police for working without a permit.  You don't need a work permit to rent out apartments  and can do it on a retirement visa, but it has to be entirely passive.  The farang owner can't actively advertise, handle or manage the apartment rental unless he has a work permit.

Edited October 2 by Evil Penevil

[JBChiangRai]

12 minutes ago, Evil Penevil said:

I don't know how common it is, but some farang landlords who rent out through AirBnB in Pattaya do keep the deposit as a scam.  It works like this:

 

The landlord will make a big thing of offering a discount on the monthly rent, but then keep the deposit to make up for the discount.  Say 15,000/month is the "going rate" for a six-month rental of an apartment of a certain size/standard in a certain area.  To attract renters, the landlord will cut the monthly rent to 13,000/month.  However, he gets back the discount plus 1,000 baht by keeping the deposit.   On a one-month rental, the landlord could slash the rent all the way to 10,000/month and earn a much higher margin by keeping the 10,0000 deposit.  

 

Scumbag landlords know farang tourists who are in Thailand for one to six months aren't going to take the matter to court, especially since they haven't really lost that much.  The renter ends up paying what would be the normal going rate. 

 

When I lived in Pattaya, I knew of a farang landlord who'd done this for years.  He finally got in trouble because an irate former tenant reported him to the immigration police for working without a permit.  You don't need a work permit to rent out apartments  and can do it on a retirement visa, but it has to be entirely passive.  The farang owner can't actively advertise, handle or manage the apartment rental unless he has a work permit.

The best threat you can make to a landlord refusing to give you your deposit back is to threaten to report them to the revenue department.

 

Very few landlords actually declared the revenue and pay tax on it.

 

Particularly for Airbnb landlords as Airbnb will supply all the revenue paid going back to the very first rental to the Revenue department on request.

[Umlungu]

4 hours ago, thesetat2013 said:

Perhaps i was not clear... i brought my contract to the police that control the area where I live. The landlord was threatening to bring the police and have me evicted for not paying the last month. But in my contract it was clearly stated last months rent was 1 month and damage deposit was another months rent. I made a police report and the police said if she attempted to use them to get me to leave that they would not enforce i and i only needed to show the police report i made. 

Why would your landlord have gone to the police to get you evicted if you had paid - as you say - the final month's rent via half of the deposit if you then had to leave on the expiry of your contract anyway? The fact that you argued your case after your final month's rent was deemed by the landlord as not having been paid (let's say within the 7-day payment deadline), and refused to pay it separately, and were still in the condo, you basically ensured that you forfeited your other half of the deposit (for damage etc) - even if there was no damage and no reason to hold it on the part of the landlord. The onus was / would then have been on you to retrieve it - and good luck with that. It would not have been worth the expense for a lawyer etc. You lost.

 

[Umlungu]

3 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

The best threat you can make to a landlord refusing to give you your deposit back is to threaten to report them to the revenue department.

 

Very few landlords actually declared the revenue and pay tax on it.

 

Particularly for Airbnb landlords as Airbnb will supply all the revenue paid going back to the very first rental to the Revenue department on request.

The best way is not to threaten anyone and just abide by the contract stipulations. That's how all the satisfactory rental agreements conclude - which, hazarding a guess, are probably the vast majority. But you don't hear about those. I had a Vietnamese lady staying in my condo for two years, the second year on a handshake extension. There was a 28k deposit. she paid every month on time, paid all bills, did no damage, cleaned the place to a degree that you could have eaten off the floor. I returned it in full. I had an American stay for a year, damaged the place and stole items, did no proper, personal handover, had three outstanding months of utility bills, was late with his rent, left an absolute mess. He forfeited 18k baht, his entire deposit. He also tried the police who laughed him out of the station. So it goes. Some great tenants, some really rotten ones.

[Umlungu]

5 hours ago, thesetat2013 said:

Perhaps i was not clear... i brought my contract to the police that control the area where I live. The landlord was threatening to bring the police and have me evicted for not paying the last month. But in my contract it was clearly stated last months rent was 1 month and damage deposit was another months rent. I made a police report and the police said if she attempted to use them to get me to leave that they would not enforce i and i only needed to show the police report i made. 

It sounds like a badly worded contract. It probable boiled down to "two months' rent as a deposit for rent and damages etc". The is no legally enshrined limit on rent or damage security bonds. The amount is defined by the rent amount times two. that has nothing to do with the defined purpose of the deposit as a whole. also, you are lucky that your contract didn't (or did it, in fact?)  state that the rent is due at a certain date, plus maybe an extra 7 days period of grace. That goes for every month, including the last one, as rent is always due in advance. My contracts always stipulate (and this is enshrined in Thai law as well) that failure to pay the rent - at any stage of the contract period - within the deadline (due date + 7 days) - constitutes a default of contract, resulting in the immediate termination of the agreement (i.e. eviction) and forfeiture of the entire deposit (without any further consideration of other potential deductions for damage etc). End of. Contracts vary a lot, it's always good to read and understand them, and not sign them if they do not suit. That avoids conflict and false accusations of landlords being scammers. 

[thesetat2013]

6 hours ago, Umlungu said:

Why would your landlord have gone to the police to get you evicted if you had paid - as you say - the final month's rent via half of the deposit if you then had to leave on the expiry of your contract anyway? The fact that you argued your case after your final month's rent was deemed by the landlord as not having been paid (let's say within the 7-day payment deadline), and refused to pay it separately, and were still in the condo, you basically ensured that you forfeited your other half of the deposit (for damage etc) - even if there was no damage and no reason to hold it on the part of the landlord. The onus was / would then have been on you to retrieve it - and good luck with that. It would not have been worth the expense for a lawyer etc. You lost.

 

because she was trying to get me to pay the last months again in cash so she can keep the whole deposit. 

[ThaiFelix]

17 hours ago, cdemundo said:

 

I was responding to this.

"Wow havnt you been lucky, certainly not the case among people I know and worked with nor a lot of the posts you read here."

 

Wasn't meant to be personal towards you.

I guess I wasn't explicit enough.

 

The point is there is a naturally occurring bias towards negative feedback on some issues.

People whose experience with their landlord was positive (or just as expected) typically don't post.

So naturally we can expect to see more negative posts.

 

 

 

Ok I get what you are saying.  Yes its possible you are correct.  I can only go by my own personal experience.  The first house we rented here the landlord refused to give us our money back pretending it was some kind of fee.  It was very surprising as the landlord, in fact his whole family, were very helpful at all times. 

 

The second place we rented we gave the landlord no chance because someone I worked with had rented the same place previously and had been ripped off too so I knew what to expect.  I merely notified him we were moving out on the same date the rent in advance expires and he was welcome to come inspect the place any time up to that date.  He was not very happy and tried to hit us with unpaid electricity and water bills but fortunately we retained all reciepts so we were clear there.

 

 

[Umlungu]

6 hours ago, thesetat2013 said:

because she was trying to get me to pay the last months again in cash so she can keep the whole deposit. 

The landlord should have evicted you on the spot for not paying the rent for the final month - on time, in advance, as per contract, just like you paid every other month according to contract stipulations. You have no right whatsoever to withhold that payment and deduct it from your deposit and thereby consider it as paid. as I said, go read up on the law and also your contract. The police are not involved at all, they are not lawyers versed in rental contract law, are not entitled to offer legal advice or anything else. They can be involved in a forced eviction. Had I been your landlord I would have kicked you out on the spot by simply locking you out. Your entire deposit would have been forfeited on the spot (missed payment deadline). Btw, did you also refuse to pay the final utility bills and also deduct them from your deposit? If so, then you are one of the tenants giving tenants and landlords a bad name because you simply do not know Thai law in this regard.

[FritsSikkink]

On 9/28/2024 at 7:54 AM, koolkarl said:

Apparently it is a national past time in Thailand for landlords to keep the 2 months deposit.  

Nonsense

[JBChiangRai]

I only once took a 1 month deposit when the agent told me they were good tenants and had been burned by a previous landlord.

 

I asked them if they were tenants of a particular landlady as I knew those tenants were trouble. The agent lied to me and said they weren’t.

 

I paid the landlord the entire first month’s rent as commission. At the end of the first month the tenants told me they could not afford to live there and were going to move out. It took them three weeks to move out. When they moved out, they hadn’t paid either of the electricity bills.

 

Since leaving my property they have burned at least one residential landlord, a commercial landlord and a school for 2 children school fees of 800,000 THB.

 

They are just not good people.

 

A note to AirBnB landlords, ALWAYS fill in a tax return.  Thailand will be receiving data on all historic rentals, just like happened last year in the UK.

Edited October 3 by JBChiangRai
Spellong

[thesetat2013]

37 minutes ago, Umlungu said:

The landlord should have evicted you on the spot for not paying the rent for the final month - on time, in advance, as per contract, just like you paid every other month according to contract stipulations. You have no right whatsoever to withhold that payment and deduct it from your deposit and thereby consider it as paid. as I said, go read up on the law and also your contract. The police are not involved at all, they are not lawyers versed in rental contract law, are not entitled to offer legal advice or anything else. They can be involved in a forced eviction. Had I been your landlord I would have kicked you out on the spot by simply locking you out. Your entire deposit would have been forfeited on the spot (missed payment deadline). Btw, did you also refuse to pay the final utility bills and also deduct them from your deposit? If so, then you are one of the tenants giving tenants and landlords a bad name because you simply do not know Thai law in this regard.

Wow!! If you are a renter... You need to go visit the office where they handle renter complaints and learn the laws. Because all this you spat out, was wrong!!! There is an agency that protects renters in Bangkok from landlords like you. You can not simply lock someone out of their rented space. If you did that to me I would have called the police and cut the lock with them watching. 

I am not some poor slob who was trying to cheat my landlord. I paid my water and electric. I also followed the contract to the laws with advice and support from that agency that protects us renters from people like you. One of these days your renter will know the real laws and you will be SCREWED. 

Thailand does have laws to protect us renters from people like you.. That is for sure. 

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, thesetat2013 said:

Wow!! If you are a renter... You need to go visit the office where they handle renter complaints and learn the laws. Because all this you spat out, was wrong!!! There is an agency that protects renters in Bangkok from landlords like you. You can not simply lock someone out of their rented space. If you did that to me I would have called the police and cut the lock with them watching. 

I am not some poor slob who was trying to cheat my landlord. I paid my water and electric. I also followed the contract to the laws with advice and support from that agency that protects us renters from people like you. One of these days your renter will know the real laws and you will be SCREWED. 

Thailand does have laws to protect us renters from people like you.. That is for sure. 

There is so much wrong with your post, I don’t know where to start.

 

I can tell you I would never rent you with your attitude.

[thesetat2013]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

There is so much wrong with your post, I don’t know where to start.

 

I can tell you I would never rent you with your attitude.

Perhaps because you did not have my contract worded the same as yours. I do not know.. But i do know what i said was true

[Umlungu]

12 hours ago, thesetat2013 said:

Wow!! If you are a renter... You need to go visit the office where they handle renter complaints and learn the laws. Because all this you spat out, was wrong!!! There is an agency that protects renters in Bangkok from landlords like you. You can not simply lock someone out of their rented space. If you did that to me I would have called the police and cut the lock with them watching. 

I am not some poor slob who was trying to cheat my landlord. I paid my water and electric. I also followed the contract to the laws with advice and support from that agency that protects us renters from people like you. One of these days your renter will know the real laws and you will be SCREWED. 

Thailand does have laws to protect us renters from people like you.. That is for sure. 

Sorry, before spouting off please read the relevant laws. Then read your rental contract. Finally, stick to the rules and the law and you will need no police or other protection from landlords like me. I protect my interests from bad renters who abuse, destroy, maltreat and neglect my property. You have every right to protect your interests as well. Please stick to Thai laws and don't import your home country rental agreements etc. Tenants, unfortunately, enjoy very little protection from landlord scammers who abuse the deposit system. - Tenants sometimes leave before a contract expires, leaving utility debts, damage and a mess behind. They might also leave with outstanding due rent. What would you suggest owners do to protect themselves in such cases? And yes, I do have the right once the tenant is in breach of contract to evict them immediately and also gain access to the property. I can prevent you from any further access to the property. I am the owner, you have an obligation to pay rent for the use of such property. If you fail to comply with the terms of this agreement, then you forfeit the right of access as well as any deposit paid. You are the one breaking the law. - If the tenant complies with all aspects of the rental contract as well as relevant Thai law, and the landlord does not by refusing to refund the deposit or part thereof (explaining and reflecting all reasonable deductions) or in any other way, then you must of course seek a legal remedy. Speaking for myself, it is largely a 50:50 on refunding and declining a deposit return. I have never had any legal issues with anyone, with most tenants who incurred a partial or zero refund agreeing that it is warranted when consulting the rental agreement they have read, understood, and signed. I, for one, will not be taken for a mug by argumentative tenants like you.

[Umlungu]

12 hours ago, thesetat2013 said:

Perhaps because you did not have my contract worded the same as yours. I do not know.. But i do know what i said was true

What you wrote is uneducated nonsense. Sorry, but you really have no clue.

[thesetat2013]

5 hours ago, Umlungu said:

What you wrote is uneducated nonsense. Sorry, but you really have no clue.

Just because you do not like what was said does not make it incorrect. You just refuse to accept it and now have nothing to say but insults

[Utalk2mutt]

I have rented twice. The first time a condo in Bangkok and the deposit for the two months was 12000 baht every baht was returned to me. The second time was a townhouse in Khon Kaen. The 2 month deposit of 16000 baht the landlord claimed he was keeping. I had caused a bit of damage by accidentally put my foot through a glass door as it had come off its runners and I was trying to tap it back onto them as a result the glass broke. I was happy to pay fair wear and tear damage and thought 4000 baht was enough so said I wanted 12000 baht back. He was adamant to the point of getting aggressive and I would not back down. He was told that he needs to get himself to the local tax office as I was going there with all my contracts and receipts of payments to him and he can explain to them why he wasn’t paying them the required tax on renting the property. He panicked and guess what I got 12000 baht back. 

[Andyfez]

Landlords in Thailand are the same as anywhere else.

Treat them and their property with respect, and most likely they will respect you.

[scorecard]

On 9/28/2024 at 7:54 AM, koolkarl said:

Apparently it is a national past time in Thailand for landlords to keep the 2 months deposit.  Has this happened to many of you and if so, what did you do?

Wow, a new subject, great news.

[retarius]

I rented for about 18 months when I first came here and was looking for land, then building a house. I got my deposits back. 

I had a friend who has since passed away, who was renting a 2 bed condo for 25000 baht a month. When he moved out the charming landlady deducted 25 baht for a lightbulb that had not been replaced. He was very rich guy, but went ape over this pettiness....he got his 25 baht back. 

I had another friend that drilled holes all over a house he was renting to put up shelves, TV mounts, coat hangers and other stuff. In fairness he filled the holes up, but the places they had been drilled were very visible. The landlord deducted a large amount of money for these fillings, and my mate got pretty angry about the whole thing and complained. The landlord refused to give the money back.

Answer honestly: are you a good tenant or not really?

In not really you might end up paying.

The other thing is that (not sure off all Thailand) I am not sure if the landlord is responsible for any maintenance while you are renting the place......if the electric goes off or the roof leaks, you need to get and pay for an electrician or roofer. If the microwave breaks, you need to buy a new one. Sounds odd to Western ears but it is fairly standard in rural areas. 

[jippytum]

I think the majority of landlords do return deposits. 

However some tenants do derserve to lose their deposits for damage to rented property.  

[MPXX]

I NEVER rent from Thai people - you've got no leverage with them. I rent from foreigners only. One time the guy would not want to return me my deposit, so I paid 2k to police people - they have arrived and asked him to pay. At the same time I told him that my next move is to go to immigration with the letter for them to investigate his behavior and question him if he pays taxes to Thai government on his rental proceeds..    Guess what? I had my deposit back the next day!  (That's called leverage)

[kiwikeith]

On 9/28/2024 at 12:54 PM, koolkarl said:

Apparently it is a national past time in Thailand for landlords to keep the 2 months deposit.  Has this happened to many of you and if so, what did you do?

We stayed there and stopped paying rent until it was used up.

It happens all the time my friend just got the police to talk with her landlord and the Police supported her, but no money yet over 50k Bhat I told her don't move until you get it but not listening.

[Bundooman]

On 9/28/2024 at 7:54 AM, koolkarl said:

Apparently it is a national past time in Thailand for landlords to keep the 2 months deposit.  Has this happened to many of you and if so, what did you do?

Nonsense!

I have moved 8 times during my 20 years in Thailand and my landlord/lady has always refunded my deposits every time without any hesitation.

 

[MPXX]

10 hours ago, Bundooman said:

Nonsense!

I have moved 8 times during my 20 years in Thailand and my landlord/lady has always refunded my deposits every time without any hesitation.

 

It is interesting - maybe you lived where nice people lived.  I lived primarily in Pattaya and landlords ALWAYS tried to game me. Also in Chiang Mai - they tried.

[JimTripper]

It's not all about wanting to give it back or not. Many times it's probably inability.

 

Deposits are not kept in escrow, they just get merged with income. If the landlord has a budgeting or spending problem that money is gone. It's just private party who is probably operating at a loss renting the place out. If it's a management company the deposit money is more likely budgeted in and likely to be returned.