How sane is he?

[OneMoreFarang]

53 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

One rule when driving (and riding a motorcycle) in Thailand that I learned very early on - never make and fast or sudden lane changes....   this allows the other motorcyclists who want to continue to pass you, to flow around you 'like water' as they say.

Good post.

And I certainly agree with this part. When changing the lane, do it slowly. In case there is a fast motorcycle behind, he will still be able to pass. And if someone is not much faster, then he has time to break.

Until now I survived like that.

But I had often enough that I thought there is nobody behind me, and then a motorcycle overtook with high speed. And in general, I don't really ride slow.

[mancub]

Oh please! Drive on any road of more than 2 lanes and you'll witness incessant jostling for position, any which way you can, to gain a few metres.

Land of lane-changers......just like their politics.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, ronster said:

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

What "sudden speed increase" does the cam show?  Do you mean "swerve"?

Yes , but in doing so it speeds up compared to all the surrounding traffic and the speed of it doesn't resemble speed of someone just moving into the next lane .

A sudden swerve to the next lane does not mean "a sudden increase in speed" and there is no way that you can see "a sudden increase in speed" from the one second view of the car's manoeuvre in the video.

[richard_smith237]

18 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Good post.

And I certainly agree with this part. When changing the lane, do it slowly. In case there is a fast motorcycle behind, he will still be able to pass. And if someone is not much faster, then he has time to break.

Until now I survived like that.

But I had often enough that I thought there is nobody behind me, and then a motorcycle overtook with high speed. And in general, I don't really ride slow.

 

Yep.. I've experienced that too...  and it infuriates me, but 'cautious' or should I say 'defensive' riding has saved me on a number of occasions... 

 

One example: Riding in the near or middle lane and the car in front slows suddenly, they are looking to turn left, have not indicated etc... Or, a bike pulls out from Soi as I am approaching, they've either not looked, or looked and seen me and just not cared that I'm approaching... 

I have not shoulder checked my blind spot and don't want to avert my eyes from the road in-front, just incase the idiot, driving / riding like an idiot does something more idiotic...  

Then woosh...   I feel the wind of a rider screaming past me..... had I moved position to or changed lanes while not being certain - I'd have been hit... its safer just to slow down.

 

Just the other day I had a motorcyclist pull out on me turning right from a Sub Soi (dual lane road in each direction - no divider, just lines)....  The rider either looked or didn't but pulled out anyway...   I'm in the right hand lane having just passed a car, I have to brake but can't swerve left as the car I've just over-taken will hit me....  the motorcyclists, an older fella on a beaten up old put-put, kind of sitting awkwardly, half saddle, knee out at 90 degrees, cigarette hanging out of his mouth etc (I'm sure you've seen plenty of such riders), stays in his 'very central position' on the centre-line of the dual lane road...  I have to slow right down behind him as I've no idea if he'll suddenly swerve left or not... After the car passes, I left shoulder check and move into the left lane to under take.....   the other rider just remains on the centre line oblivious to his riding and danger he is in, riding the 'central line' of the road' at 30 kmh.

 

Lots of circumstances of other riders / drivers just doing really really dumb stuff. But, for the most part, cars rarely make sudden movements... While riding around Bangkok, I find it the other motorcyclists who present the far greater hazard than cars....

 

 

 

Edited October 12 by richard_smith237

[NoshowJones]

18 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

I'm not so sure - it looks more like an utter idiot attempting to make a quick lane change and had no idea the bike was next to them. 

 

Regardless - the driver was a total ayhole for driving off like that - should get a ban for dangerous driving and fleeing the scene of an accident. 

 

 

Another point: I think motorcycles and not permitted in the central lanes (3 lanes in either direction) on Vibhavadi Ransit Rd.

 

 

 

 

Motorbikes should be permitted on these roads if they are above 250cc over the years I have frequently used these roads on my Forza as I don't agree with this rule, and only being stopped once. I handed over 300Bt then a smile and handshake with the officer.

[harryviking]

This was one of those rather rare a**holes behind a wheel. A coward and a danger to all. After decades on bikes around in Thailand, I cannot recall any such behavior from cars. They normally respect us and often give way for us to pass if heavy traffic. But that of course rely on us to go easy, greet the drivers with positive hand signals and so on. 

[richard_smith237]

15 minutes ago, NoshowJones said:

Motorbikes should be permitted on these roads if they are above 250cc over the years I have frequently used these roads on my Forza as I don't agree with this rule, and only being stopped once. I handed over 300Bt then a smile and handshake with the officer.

 

I agree...   though I'd suggest a higher CC range and kind of a 'agree' with the 400cc limits proposed in the past (referring to big bikes - in regards to separating scooters and regular bikes of larger displacement).

 

BUT - Thailand doesn't do descretion... Can you imagine the mayhem ?... lazy police not bothering to distinguish the difference, so it just becomes a 'free-for-all'... 

 

I like being able to drive on the Motorways without all the scooters etc... 

 

I also see larger bikes riding the main roads such as Bangkok to Hua Hin, and they are 'part of the traffic' keeping up, riding sensibly etc...  and the scooters, sticking to the frontage path / shoulder or whatever its called....    So, no harm in allowing 'higher powered bikes' on the expressways and central area's of Vibhavadi Rangsit road.....   

BUT - as we already know, rules here are not followed, so there has to be a readily distinguishable line - and that line is simplified to two or four wheels....  

[Sig]

4 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

IMHO as an ex-magistrate, I would find them both guilty.

 

First, looking at the motorbike, his offences under the Thai RTA were, Section 44 no indicator, no lane splitting

in the run up to the accident Section 45 overtaking on the left.

 

This illegal maneuver put him in a position where the car driver did not expect him to appear had he been aware of what was behind him.

 

The car driver's offences, Section 44 no indicator, and clearly not checking his mirror before making the maneuver.

 

There are other offences that committed that I would consider unreasonable but a belligerent policeman might try to pursue.

 

For riders out there, be aware lane splitting is not legal in Thailand, you have to be in a designated lane.  You can only overtake on the right except under special circumstances, eg vehicle ahead turning right etc, you must use your indicators when overtaking.

 

The MG was driving without due care, I don't think it was deliberate, he probably never saw the bike, deliberate actions follow a longer aggressive run up to the accident.

What I would think the most egregious action of the entire incident, you, as an "ex-magistrate", don't even bother to mention! Or would you consider a policeman trying "to pursue" an accusation of hit and run, unreasonable and belligerent?? (Even though policemen don't pursue anything, they simply issue a legal notice of an accusation and the alleged offender's requirements thereunto. "Pursuing" a charge/an accusation is what the role of the court and the prosecutor is.)
Very curious as to where you were a magistrate....

Edited October 12 by Sig

[Sig]

When I ride, I don't split lanes if cars have enough room to change lanes so easily. I only split if the traffic is quite bad and going very slowly with very little room between cars. Splitting lanes like this rider was doing is insane and asking for trouble. I don't care what country it might be in.
The car driver also displayed amazingly bad driving as well... (not to mention the immoral act of fleeing the scene of where they may have just killed someone, for all they know)
Just another day on the roads in a big city. Pretty much the same in any big city I've ever been in, whether Tokyo, Bangkok, Manila, Paris, Milano, London, New Delhi, Lahore, Los Angeles, New York, Kunming, etc...

[JBChiangRai]

15 minutes ago, Sig said:

What I would think the most egregious action of the entire incident, you, as an "ex-magistrate", don't even bother to mention! Or would you consider a policeman trying "to pursue" an accusation of hit and run, unreasonable and belligerent?? (Even though policemen don't pursue anything, they simply issue a legal notice of an accusation and the alleged offender's requirements thereunto. "Pursuing" a charge/an accusation is what the role of the court and the prosecutor is.)
Very curious as to where you were a magistrate....

 

You are correct.

I only provided analysis up to the point of the accident, what happened afterwards doesn’t affect blame for the accident.

 

Even miss and run is a crime, we don’t know there was a hit and we don’t know the driver knew there was an accident.

 

Hit and Run is a very serious and egregious crime.

[Sig]

41 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

You are correct.

I only provided analysis up to the point of the accident, what happened afterwards doesn’t affect blame for the accident.

 

Even miss and run is a crime, we don’t know there was a hit and we don’t know the driver knew there was an accident.

 

Hit and Run is a very serious and egregious crime.

Good try at deflection... that didn't work, "ex-magistrate"....
Anyone seeing that video would wonder what on earth you were looking at.

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Sig said:

Good try at deflection... that didn't work, "ex-magistrate"....
Anyone seeing that video would wonder what on earth you were looking at.

 

Whatever

[PeeJayEm]

I'm a veteran big bike rider and a car driver. So neutral and looking at both sides.

The car probably didn't see the bike, only glancing in the door mirror for a second while the bike approached in the blind spot.

The bike rider seems to be in the habit of riding down the white line between lanes in slowish moving traffic.  If he does that regularly - as I suspect - then he's doubly 

exposing  himself to this sort of thing from both lanes and should expect this to happen sooner or later.

Basic bike riding intelligence is that you need to keep visible and occupy a clearly visible space and presence in the traffic - which means riding in the middle of a lane and behaving as if you are a car - keeping your rightful space.  Filtering carefully between lanes is  fine when traffic is stopped or start/stop queuing  - but riding like this down a white line is asking for an accident.  In the end, when you are dead it doesn't matter who was right or wrong.  He had it coming.  Both the rider and the car contributed to the accident.

 

Regarding the car not stopping - the driver may simply not have been aware of what happened - they would not have felt or heard anything - just a nudge puts a bike off the road.   Then if any of us had been the driver - what would we have done to safely stop?  It requires a quick and accurate risk assessment - stop in the middle lane of moving traffic causing another, now two-lane, blockage and walk back in the moving traffic? On balance, and more than a few seconds to think about it, I think pull into the right lane and stop there - blocking only the one lane and being able safely to walk back beside the central reserve wall.  But how many of us would get that right in two or three seconds .

Edited October 12 by PeeJayEm
Added last para

[BritScot]

21 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

There are a couple of problems here.

The motorcycle rider is illegally riding on that street. 

This means any car driver should (legally) not have to worry about motorcycles.

The car driver changes the lane. Probably he saw the car behind the motorcycle, and if he paid attention, then he knows that that car was in that position for "some time".

Unfortunately, with the blind/dead angle in most mirrors, the driver did not see the motorcycle rider in the mirror.

And, legally it was not possible that a motorcycle suddenly appeared in that place on the road.

So, I think there is a lot of blame on the motorcycle rider. And I say this as someone who rides motorcycle all the time, including on that road.

 

Personally, I try to ride with my bike so that I am as little as possible in any place which is in that dead angle of mirrors. Because anybody who ever drive a car and looked at that dead angle knows that there is a lot of space to put a bike and even a car and looking in the mirror, we just don't see it. That's the reason why we learn in driving school to turn our head. 

 

Are you mad and blind? 

[BritScot]

6 hours ago, Classic Ray said:

Thai drivers are not taught to plan their manoeuvres, so they never have time or skill enough to check mirror and indicate before changing lane.

 

They generally only use indicators when trying to force into another lane when they have failed to plan their move. 
 

Motorcyclists should not filter between lanes unless traffic is stationary, but they all do and take the risk of being knocked off.
 

it’s all down to a lack of driver and rider awareness and education.

You did watch the video? After reading some sanctimonious posts on here I watch the video again and again. You can see that the car driver makes a very aggressive swipe at the Biker! He new exactly what he was doing and have seen Thais doing that to bikers many, many times. Little D!ck syndrome. Don't like being overtaken by bikes.

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, BritScot said:

You did watch the video? After reading some sanctimonious posts on here I watch the video again and again. You can see that the car driver makes a very aggressive swipe at the Biker! He new exactly what he was doing and have seen Thais doing that to bikers many, many times. Little D!ck syndrome. Don't like being overtaken by bikes.

I think you watched a different video.

 

I am not even convinced there was contact or that the car driver was aware of the accident.

[JBChiangRai]

If you look at this from a civil action point of view.

 

If the biker sued for damages.

 

The bike shouldn’t be on the road so he has an issue with the clean-hands doctrine. 

The dashcam video doesn’t help his cause, he appears to be riding recklessly.

 

The car driver’s legal representative would most likely ask the court to dismiss any claim for damages quoting the clean-hands doctrine.

 

Regarding the car suing the biker for damages, it would most likely be dismissed because the car driver made a maneuver which was too rapid and reckless.

 

Nil-Nil

[lordgrinz]

What the heck is the motorcycle driver doing in the farthest right lane? You can see a motorcycle 2 lanes over in the video, where he should also be! Splitting Lanes in the fast lane is nuts! Far as I know he's not even permitted in those 2 far right lanes.

[OldBird]

On 10/11/2024 at 5:20 PM, richard_smith237 said:

 

I'm not so sure - it looks more like an utter idiot attempting to make a quick lane change and had no idea the bike was next to them. 

 

Regardless - the driver was a total ayhole for driving off like that - should get a ban for dangerous driving and fleeing the scene of an accident. 

 

 

Another point: I think motorcycles and not permitted in the central lanes (3 lanes in either direction) on Vibhavadi Ransit Rd.

 

 

 

 

You are correct. Motorcycles are not allowed on that street there are signs posted to that effect. I take that street every week when I visit the Chulabourne hospital.  Also, the driver of the car should not be on the road. Although motorcycles are not allowed on that street the driver should have checked their blindspot before attempting the lane change.  It is defensive driving 101!

[Foek]

On 10/11/2024 at 5:53 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

There are a couple of problems here.

The motorcycle rider is illegally riding on that street. 

This means any car driver should (legally) not have to worry about motorcycles.

The car driver changes the lane. Probably he saw the car behind the motorcycle, and if he paid attention, then he knows that that car was in that position for "some time".

Unfortunately, with the blind/dead angle in most mirrors, the driver did not see the motorcycle rider in the mirror.

And, legally it was not possible that a motorcycle suddenly appeared in that place on the road.

So, I think there is a lot of blame on the motorcycle rider. And I say this as someone who rides motorcycle all the time, including on that road.

 

Personally, I try to ride with my bike so that I am as little as possible in any place which is in that dead angle of mirrors. Because anybody who ever drive a car and looked at that dead angle knows that there is a lot of space to put a bike and even a car and looking in the mirror, we just don't see it. That's the reason why we learn in driving school to turn our head. 

 

 Mirror ??🙄

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

It might not have been deliberate, but it is still dangerous driving if the driver had not seen the bike.

Unfortunately this is not unusual in Thailand where (and elsewhere) that drivers do not look for bikes big or small.

[Captain Flack]

A trolling flame post containing nothing but a personal attack has been removed

[BangkokReady]

20 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

21 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

One rule when driving (and riding a motorcycle) in Thailand that I learned very early on - never make and fast or sudden lane changes....   this allows the other motorcyclists who want to continue to pass you, to flow around you 'like water' as they say.

Good post.

And I certainly agree with this part. When changing the lane, do it slowly. In case there is a fast motorcycle behind, he will still be able to pass. And if someone is not much faster, then he has time to break.

Until now I survived like that.

But I had often enough that I thought there is nobody behind me, and then a motorcycle overtook with high speed. And in general, I don't really ride slow.

 

A sensible idea, but before any change in road position, you should be checking your mirrors and looking over your shoulder.  If there is anyone behind you that might have to break or pass you, you then do not make your manoeuvre.

[OneMoreFarang]

56 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

 

A sensible idea, but before any change in road position, you should be checking your mirrors and looking over your shoulder.  If there is anyone behind you that might have to break or pass you, you then do not make your manoeuvre.

 

In theory you are right. But do you really always do that?

I.e. sometimes I ride in the middle of one lane (maybe on a street with 3 lanes). And I move my bike only a little within my own lane. But then, suddenly, some bike overtakes me in the "gap" left or right on my own lane with high speed. It's crazy, but it happens.

So even if I don't change lanes and only move a little left or right, I normally still do that slowly because of above.

Until now I had luck with that. But sometimes there are just too crazy riders who somehow "think" they can squeeze in where they shouldn't do that.

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, BangkokReady said:

 

A sensible idea, but before any change in road position, you should be checking your mirrors and looking over your shoulder.  If there is anyone behind you that might have to break or pass you, you then do not make your manoeuvre.

 

Under quiet traffic conditions, fair enough. Otherwise an impossibility in Thailand for anyone who drives on busy roads.

 

When driving: Check your mirrors and there is a line of cars and a line of motorcycles lane splitting as far back as you can see.

Indicate and they just keep coming... no one will give way... so you 'gently start the lane change' slowly by surely, one of the motorcyclists has to make the decision to give way and will do so.

 

It's not ideal - but taking a realistic approach here: being somewhat assertive in many case is the only way to make progress on the roads.

 

 

And as OMF pointed out: on the bike, its just like that too.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 13 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

17 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

If you look at this from a civil action point of view.

 

If the biker sued for damages.

 

The bike shouldn’t be on the road so he has an issue with the clean-hands doctrine. 

 

I'm not sure about that - It depends on which part of Vibhavadi road he is on - some of it bike are permitted (i.e. much of the area's near and North of DM Airport where there is no frontage road).

 

17 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

The dashcam video doesn’t help his cause, he appears to be riding recklessly.

 

The car driver’s legal representative would most likely ask the court to dismiss any claim for damages quoting the clean-hands doctrine.

 

Regarding the car suing the biker for damages, it would most likely be dismissed because the car driver made a maneuver which was too rapid and reckless.

 

Nil-Nil

 

Possibly... or they Police would just settle on 50/50 - who knows... 

 

I don't think the bike was riding dangerously (he was lane splitting which is quite normal here and not specifically illegal) - he may also have been on that part of the road where motorcycles are permitted (that is yet to be established and we'd need to know the exact area to be sure of this).

 

The driver of the car carried out his manoeuvre without care and attention - that in itself is reckless driving. 

Then he fled the scene.

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

18 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think you watched a different video.

 

I am not even convinced there was contact or that the car driver was aware of the accident.

 

Valid point - there may not have been contact - we didn't see contact in the video as the bike was masked by the position of the car in front of the cam car. 

 

But, we did see a sudden move by the car, maybe just reckless and thoughtless. 

 

The bike may have swerved and over-reacted loosing balance and ending up in the wall and flipping over.

 

Impossible to tell for sure.

 

[Watawattana]

On 10/11/2024 at 6:20 PM, richard_smith237 said:

I'm not so sure - it looks more like an utter idiot attempting to make a quick lane change and had no idea the bike was next to them. 

 

Regardless - the driver was a total ayhole for driving off like that - should get a ban for dangerous driving and fleeing the scene of an accident. 

 

 

Another point: I think motorcycles and not permitted in the central lanes (3 lanes in either direction) on Vibhavadi Ransit Rd.

I've and re-watched this video a dozen times now.  Each time trying to put my brain into a different place to where I was the first time, a different way to look at it and consider it.  My first look felt it was deliberate.  Still probably wouldn't be attempted murder of course, unless there was evidence of a motive.

 

Please note that almost exactly the same thing happened to me on the M25 round London about 30 years ago.  I wasn't filtering, I was simply in the middle lane overtaking the slower traffic.  Some geezer in the inside turned his head, looked at me (eye to eye contact made), and he turned sharply into the side of me.  I landed in the outside lane at about 70mph.  How nobody hit me I still don't know.  I had top-quality leathers on and a good helmet.  I came out of that with mild concussion, a friction burn on the elbow (inside of leathers) and a few bruises.  I told the copper what happened, including that the eye contact had been made, but we both agreed that unless driver confessed then no chance to prove.  We also both agreed that even though he looked at me he may not have seen me due to poor concentration, and that his mind may not have reacted to what he saw before he had committed to make the turn.  But the guy got convicted of dangerous driving, rather than careless, got 5 penalty points and £500 fine.  So, I'm a bit sensitive when I see this type of thing.

 

Going back to the video, on balance, the chances are the driver saw a gap and went for it without any care for anyone else.  Happens a lot without consequence, sometimes there's a prang.  It happens all over the world.  I won't single out Thailand on this.  I've driven in worse places than Thailand for this type of thing (Italy).

 

 

[ifmu]

the rider was splitting lanes  .... very dangerous  ...     his fault   he came up in the drivers blind spot right when the car was changing lanes ..  still his fault 

 

car sped away   ... did he see the bike ? ... if so his fault hit and run 

 

easy peasy  ...

[richard_smith237]

10 minutes ago, ifmu said:

the rider was splitting lanes  .... very dangerous  ...     his fault   he came up in the drivers blind spot right when the car was changing lanes ..  still his fault 

 

No, it’s not the bikes faults.

Car driver has to check his blind spot - he didn’t…. It’s the drivers fault.

 

The motorcyclist could have / should have been riding more defensively & that makes him complicit in the incident “, but fault lies with the car driver for changing lanes suddenly without checking the blind spot = careless / reckless driving.

 

 

10 minutes ago, ifmu said:

 

car sped away   ... did he see the bike ? ... if so his fault hit and run 

 

easy peasy  ...