Thai lawyer argues most expats won’t be impacted by personal income tax

[oldcpu]

5 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just curious, shouldn't all expats have a TIN from their home country of citizenship? You could use that to open a bank account outside of Thailand if you don't have a Thai TIN.

Unfortunately, not.

 

In my case, I was specifically asked for the TIN from the country where each year I resided the most. That was Thailand (where I reside for > 180 days/year).

 

The tax # from my country(s) of citizenship was NOT acceptable.  The tax # had to be from the country where I currently resided the most.  Until I could produce that to their satisfaction, I had two trading accounts frozen.

[NoDisplayName]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I think this example is already clear.

Say you own 100 shares of Dildonex stock and have owned them for 10 years.

You sell the shares anytime starting Jan 1. 2024.

If there is a loss -- nothing accessible in Thaiand.

If there is a profit the portion that is transferred is tax accessible as capital gains PLUS you can apply your double taxation agreement as a credit (if applicable).

For example if your home country tax is higher, no Thai tax, but I still think supposed to be reported.

So yeah things can get complicated.

 

Sure, complicated.

 

You bought 100 shares in 7 lots over 10 years.

You sold 40 shares, some for profit, some for loss, total $5000.

You remitted $3000 to Thailand.

 

Which shares, which lots, what basis?

Cost basis, including dividends, or NAV Dec 31, 2023?

How much of the $3000 is assessable?

[chiang mai]

30 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Investments implies NOT cash. 

But getting into the weeds, I really don't know how things like CDs and related vehicles would be considered.

This is why people should look closely at their specific situation as we all handle money differently. 

Yes, JT, "investment" implies not cash but "investment account" can be either. 

 

A CD is nothing more than a fixed deposit or another interest bearing account, the return is known at the outset and can be calculated where as an investment in stocks, bonds or property cannot. The TRD Code has an income category 5 I believe which covers interest bearing accounts and the tax treatment of them, which are not CG.

[Jingthing]

58 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Sure, complicated.

 

You bought 100 shares in 7 lots over 10 years.

You sold 40 shares, some for profit, some for loss, total $5000.

You remitted $3000 to Thailand.

 

Which shares, which lots, what basis?

Cost basis, including dividends, or NAV Dec 31, 2023?

How much of the $3000 is assessable?

I think the NAV on that date is irrelevant in the case of stock capital gains. Beyond that, it's an accounting question which is probably addressed best by accountants.

[Jingthing]

41 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Yes, JT, "investment" implies not cash but "investment account" can be either. 

 

A CD is nothing more than a fixed deposit or another interest bearing account, the return is known at the outset and can be calculated where as an investment in stocks, bonds or property cannot. The TRD Code has an income category 5 I believe which covers interest bearing accounts and the tax treatment of them, which are not CG.

Yeah sure, I thought it was implied that  CASH balances in a bank account or as part of an investment account are both CASH. But of course it's good to get into details.

[scubascuba3]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Give it a rest! Nobody here is making money from giving their opinions on tax, the video is quite clearly aimed at those people who are and who are in business for that purpose. You also have to ask yourself, if "visa "agents" are allowed to go around charging high fees so that people can have dodgy visa's, and they don't get arrested, people on social networking who are trying to help others certainly wont.

Let's see if any get arrested, maybe deported as the lawyer hopes

[chiang mai]

36 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Let's see if any get arrested, maybe deported as the lawyer hopes

There's a meanness in many of the posts that are critical of people who are genuinely trying to help, provide information and educate foreigners about tax. I saw that Lister came under attack several times from members who accused him of trying to profit or get kick backs for generating referrals, others asked if he had a work permit. I thought those things were really sad and spoke volumes about some members. 

 

I don't know about the YouTube video guys, at least one has made so many glaring errors in what he said that expat clubs in Thailand need to sit up and pay much closer attention before asking this guy to address the community because they are part of the problem. 

[JohnnyBD]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Unfortunately, not.

 

In my case, I was specifically asked for the TIN from the country where each year I resided the most. That was Thailand (where I reside for > 180 days/year).

 

The tax # from my country(s) of citizenship was NOT acceptable.  The tax # had to be from the country where I currently resided the most.  Until I could produce that to their satisfaction, I had two trading accounts frozen.

I don't have any offshore accts, so I'm not familiar with the residency rules. I only have home country trading accts (outside of Thailand). In my case, where I reside the most or whether I stay 180 days or more in Thailand is irrelevant. There's no physical presence test required to maintain a trading acct in my home country. The determining factor to maintain my trading accts, is to have a home country residence & address, which I am fortunate to have. Good luck...

[oldcpu]

49 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

 The determining factor to maintain my trading accts, is to have a home country residence & address, which I am fortunate to have. Good luck...

 

The financial account that I had (which froze my account) also requires a home residence/address, but it also required one reside in that home country address >182 days per year.  I was only in that 'home address' two to three weeks a year (it was a relative's address that I was using in my home country).

 

The financial organization determined (via the country Revenue Department) that I no longer resided in that address > 182 days per year.  So the financial organisation (1) froze my trading accounts, and  at the same time contacted me and required that I (2) confirm what the country revenue department told them (that I no longer resided at that address >182 days per year), and (3) fill in a form with the tax ID # of the country where I resided in order to unfreeze my account.

 

When I initially correctly replied that I had no tax-ID (in Thailand), they still would not let me proceed with my trading account.  They gave me 2 choices : (a) obtain a Thai Tax ID # and still keep my accounts 'frozen' (ie no new equity positions - I could only close existing positions), or (b) close my trading account. 

 

I chose (b) - I closed my trading account.

 

At about the same time, I then found another financial institution in the same home country that would let me open an account even thou I lived in Thailand, BUT they required I provide a Thai tax ID. 

 

I tried to get a Thai tax ID at the same time (my Thai wife was pushing me to get a Thai tax ID)  but I failed (Phuket RD would not give me one), although the Phuket RD did state my pink-ID could be my tax-ID if activated.  

 

So I passed that information on to the 'other financial institution' (giving them my pink-ID # with the caveat that the Thai RD advised me that they had not activated that ID # yet).  The financial institution was happy with that even with the noted caveat that the Thai tax ID was not yet active.

 

The timing was partly beneficial - as I was immediately able to trade ,and made a very quick large financial return with days of opening the new account (basically doubled my income for the year). 

 

The return would have been MASSIVELY better (equivalent ~10 years income in a six month period) had my account not been frozen prior by the 1st financial institution, but that is all water under the bridge, and that is yet another 'fish that got away' story of my life. 😥 We all have those stories.😅

 

In truth though I can't complain.  I have a new active trading account. The financial institution is OK that I reside in Thailand. And everything is 'above board' and 'legal'.

 

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

In truth though I can't complain.  I have a new active trading account. The financial institution is OK that I reside in Thailand. And everything is 'above board' and 'legal'.

I'm glad to hear everything worked out for you. Best wishes!

[EVENKEEL]

8 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Give it a rest! Nobody here is making money from giving their opinions on tax, the video is quite clearly aimed at those people who are and who are in business for that purpose. You also have to ask yourself, if "visa "agents" are allowed to go around charging high fees so that people can have dodgy visa's, and they don't get arrested, people on social networking who are trying to help others certainly wont.

I like the way you try to justify herding gullible foreigners to the tax man with the agent analysis. In your mind you're being helpful, the reality says different.

[NanLaew]

13 hours ago, sandyf said:

I don't know where you got the first sentence from, not the UK. With 2 separate banks I was asked to confirm where I paid tax but no number required.

I would agree with last statement, those that would  need to pay tax should know and do what should always have been done. Those that wouldn't need to pay tax should wait for further clarification. I cannot see the RD putting work into chasing returns where there is nothing, or very little, to be gained.

In due course we  may see something like the HMRC guidance on if a return is required.

My offshore UK bank DID eventually require the non-UK tax ID number. Telling them I was simply not tax resident in the UK worked for them last year, but not this year. They wanted proof, ie, they needed that foreign TIN.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

I like the way you try to justify herding gullible foreigners to the tax man with the agent analysis. In your mind you're being helpful, the reality says different.

The reality is that you have been successful at wearing me down with your continued criticism of my efforts to try and help members understand income tax. For me the way forward is simple, I will not post any more on tax or on any other subject on AN. For those members who have sought my help, my apologies for this change of direction, you will now have to find another source of help and information and likely pay for that service. 

 

I wish you all good luck.

[ukrules]

12 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

All issues relating to CRS are not rumour. The Royal Act relating to the adoption of CRS was published in March 2023.

 

All issues related to CRS are mostly irrelevant with the current remittance system in place, remember it exists for western countries to tax those with offshore bank accounts.

 

Thailand with the remittance based system doesn't really stand to benefit from any of this information and if you're no longer a tax resident in your home country then they're not going to care what you have or do in Thailand unless they tax non residents - which they don't in almost every country except for 1.

 

[ukrules]

5 hours ago, oldcpu said:

The financial account that I had (which froze my account) also requires a home residence/address, but it also required one reside in that home country address >182 days per year.  I was only in that 'home address' two to three weeks a year (it was a relative's address that I was using in my home country).

 

Indeed, a lot of people seem to think you can just pick and choose your residency back in your home country - as you found to your detriment, you can't.

 

[flexomike]

18 hours ago, cooked said:

1. My granddaughter spent the summer allocating TIN numbers to people that didn't already have one, and this included a few Farangs.

2. I have a Thai ID card for Farangs, and she tells me that the number on that card is the same as your TIN. So all you guys that have the pink card don't need to worry about that. 

3. I watched the video and decided that it was useless, at least in my case.

4. At the local tax office they don't know what is going to happen, and they will likely as not interpret all this in their own inimitable, Thai fashion. So WAIT and see.

4. I asked at Immigration, their reply was "Why worry about something that hasn't happened yet?". I agree.

Just WAIT

On number 2, if you want to use your pink card ID number for your TIN you have to activate it at a Thai tax office, there are a couple of forms to fill out.

[anchadian]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The reality is that you have been successful at wearing me down with your continued criticism of my efforts to try and help members understand income tax. For me the way forward is simple, I will not post any more on tax or on any other subject on AN. For those members who have sought my help, my apologies for this change of direction, you will now have to find another source of help and information and likely pay for that service. 

 

I wish you all good luck.

Your understanding of Thai tax has been helpful to many members on this forum including myself.  It's certain members, such as EK, that should be ignored.  

GL

[EVENKEEL]

2 hours ago, anchadian said:

Your understanding of Thai tax has been helpful to many members on this forum including myself.  It's certain members, such as EK, that should be ignored.  

GL

I speak the truth. Get over it.

[BritManToo]

7 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The reality is that you have been successful at wearing me down with your continued criticism of my efforts to try and help members understand income tax. For me the way forward is simple, I will not post any more on tax or on any other subject on AN. For those members who have sought my help, my apologies for this change of direction, you will now have to find another source of help and information and likely pay for that service. 

 

I wish you all good luck.

Thank God!

[The Cyclist]

6 hours ago, ukrules said:

All issues related to CRS are mostly irrelevant with the current remittance system in place, remember it exists for western countries to tax those with offshore bank accounts.

 

You couldn't be more wrong, if you think that is what CRS is all about.

 

6 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

Indeed, a lot of people seem to think you can just pick and choose your residency back in your home country - as you found to your detriment, you can't.

 

 

As stipulated in CRS for tax residency, ie, 180 days or more in a Country and you are a tax resident of that Country.

 

The main thrust of CRS is to reduce, detect and eliminate tax avoidance / evasion throughout the 120 Countries that are signed up to CRS, which not only applies to off shore bank accounts, it applies to any monies that move cross border within those 120 Countries

 

Its only 324 pages

 

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/standard-for-automatic-exchange-of-financial-account-information-in-tax-matters-second-edition_9789264267992-en

 

Knock yourself out.

[Yumthai]

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

As stipulated in CRS for tax residency, ie, 180 days or more in a Country and you are a tax resident of that Country.

Wrong.

[The Cyclist]

Just now, Yumthai said:

Wrong.

 

You hve read the 324 pages already ?
 

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/standard-for-automatic-exchange-of-financial-account-information-in-tax-matters-second-edition_9789264267992-en

 

Get back to ke when you have went through the whole 324 pages.

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just curious, shouldn't all expats have a TIN from their home country of citizenship? You could use that to open a bank account outside of Thailand if you don't have a Thai TIN.

You should be careful how you post , the quote you referred to didn't come from me.

[Yumthai]

21 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

You hve read the 324 pages already ?
 

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/standard-for-automatic-exchange-of-financial-account-information-in-tax-matters-second-edition_9789264267992-en

 

Get back to ke when you have went through the whole 324 pages.

 

"As stipulated in CRS for tax residency, ie, 180 days or more in a Country and you are a tax resident of that Country."

 

What does this statement mean? If you mean CRS defines tax residency by staying 180 days or more in a country, it's wrong. Please quote your exact reference.

 

[sandyf]

10 hours ago, NanLaew said:

My offshore UK bank DID eventually require the non-UK tax ID number. Telling them I was simply not tax resident in the UK worked for them last year, but not this year. They wanted proof, ie, they needed that foreign TIN.

A distortion of what I said, thought it was quite clear I was referring to new accounts with onshore UK banks requiring confirmation of UK tax residency, rather than a number.

That would not in keeping with post I replied to had implied. I have seen no evidence to indicate UK banks require a TIN to open a standard account, normally photo ID and utility bill.  As far as I am aware confirmation of tax residency is only required for certain types of account.

[The Cyclist]

21 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

 

"As stipulated in CRS for tax residency, ie, 180 days or more in a Country and you are a tax resident of that Country."

 

What does this statement mean? If you mean CRS defines tax residency by staying 180 days or more in a country, it's wrong. Please quote your exact reference.

 

 

Here is a nice simple flowchart that explains it in simple terms

 

 

The left hand column explains banks identifying the Tax Residence of their customers. Kbank has already started this process and there is a thread on the forum.

 

The right hand column explains the tax residency of individuals. Which is generally, including Thailand, 180 days or more in a tax year.

 

It should also be noted, that individuals can be tax resident of more than 1 Country, and this should be declared by the individual.

 

If you have any other questions, regarding CRS, Thailand, The Thai Renevue Code or Tax residency. the information is freely available in the public domain and I suggest that you should dig into it yourself, as what I am posting here, is only my opinion on what is written down in the various publications.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, oldcpu said:

The tax # from my country(s) of citizenship was NOT acceptable.  The tax # had to be from the country where I currently resided the most.  Until I could produce that to their satisfaction, I had two trading accounts frozen.

Statements like that are distorting the thread. I would think that "most" expats as referred to in the OP do not have trading accounts or partaking in any active business.

Those engaged in activities that have always necessitated the need for a tax return should refrain from muddying the waters.

[EVENKEEL]

9 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The reality is that you have been successful at wearing me down with your continued criticism of my efforts to try and help members understand income tax. For me the way forward is simple, I will not post any more on tax or on any other subject on AN. For those members who have sought my help, my apologies for this change of direction, you will now have to find another source of help and information and likely pay for that service. 

 

I wish you all good luck.

Another one bites the dust.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Statements like that are distorting the thread.

 

There is no distortion in the truth. 

 

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

 

I would think that "most" expats as referred to in the OP do not have trading accounts or partaking in any active business.

 

This goes beyond trading accounts ... I simply referenced ONLY such in my post.  I can only deduce you have not really looked into this, or perhaps have few accounts and have not experienced such in different countries.

 

I have German bank personal accounts.  With a couple of them, having a Thai residency is no problem. With a 3rd German bank personal account it is a problem.

 

I have Canadian bank personal accounts.  Its an entirely different matter (my having Thai residency).  The Canadian bank restricts what I can do with the money in that account, and further won't let me open new accounts.

 

So I type again - this goes BEYOND just trading accounts .. It can also affect personal bank accounts which MOST do have. So I would counter and state it is your statement that distorts the truth for some countries and some banks.

 

Each person needs to look at their own situation, and for some of us, having a tax-ID (for our country of residence) is ALSO ESSENTIAL for our personal bank accounts - CONTRARY to what you infer.

 

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Those engaged in activities that have always necessitated the need for a tax return should refrain from muddying the waters.

 

The muddying I observe has been done in your post that  I quoted - perhaps by your not having, what should I say ? not having the international banking experience?  I don't know, but your response was bizarre in its inaccuracy.

 

I repeat - everyone NEEDS to look at their own situation.  The lawyer could indeed be correct that most expats won't be 'impacted' by personal income tax - however one should define "impacted".  Further, here, is a clear Thai government trend here, where there is undeniable "chatter" (as reported by Thai press) by Thai government officials, of them desiring to expand their tax base.

 

Hence these discussions are very relevant - albeit one MUST not jump to conclusions, but rather carefully think through what is needed given one's own situation.

 

[JohnnyBD]

On 12/7/2024 at 8:56 PM, sandyf said:

On 12/7/2024 at 8:25 PM, Hamus Yaigh said:

To keep or open any new bank or brokerage account outside Thailand needs a TIN these days. Many expats in Thailand have only a Thai TIN available to them if they don't have one in another country. Other than that little has changed has it, besides a social media frenzy, and expats have not been approached by Thai authorities about any changes because until now there are not any? 

I don't know where you got the first sentence from, not the UK. With 2 separate banks I was asked to confirm where I paid tax but no number required.

I would agree with last statement, those that would  need to pay tax should know and do what should always have been done. Those that wouldn't need to pay tax should wait for further clarification. I cannot see the RD putting work into chasing returns where there is nothing, or very little, to be gained.

In due course we  may see something like the HMRC guidance on if a return is required.

 

Sorry Mr. Sandyf.

I don't know how Mr. Hamus' post ended up attached to your name when I replied. My apologies.