Nightmare at the Prachuap tax office

[Briggsy]

10 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

 Asked and answered!  Just one example, from American tax advisor Thomas Carden in a recent interview:

 

 

 

 

Thanks. American tax advisor Thomas Carden.

[Presnock]

12 hours ago, thesetat said:

I think you can not read. I said I was there and asking questions. I never said i tried to file the taxes. I wanted information to see if I had to file. My logic was sound. However, logic does not work when dealing with Thais. They have no clue what is going on. NO tax return was filed when there. Just unanswered questions. 

I am unsure as top why expats continue to go to local offices when they have no real reason to go.  Most answers we see are just that from local rd officers - no real idea,  some say file and RD will figure up your taxable amount and they have no idea if you have assessable on non assessable income.  I have read he RD notes, seen umptiump webinars and all basically say the same thing unless they want YOUR business.  Very few of us I think will have any real problems this year until the RD gets all their folks on board and they put out the same story.  Non-assessable income includes any income non-assessable due to exemption by DTA or exemption by Royal Decree or if there is some other exemption then non-assessable so nothing needs to be obtained from the local rd office.  Once the tax season filling is over in April then believe the RD will look at the results and unless some folks wake up then the RD will be swamped by zero tax forms filed or if enough expats wake up, very few filed.  Then the RD will probably look at remittances as provided by the local banks, and determine what least amount and above will get some kind of notice to proved the RD with ample evidence of exemptions.  If people have their documents ready, then this should be easy notice I said should be easy but do not really have any idea about the RD folks in general.  If however, I am targetted and the RD doesn't like my documentation even though the big exemptions are BOI LTR documents (visa) and DTA then I will contact the US Embassy and US State department that the RD is possibly violating the treaty with the US.  I do wish only the best of luck for everyone in this tax season.  I have always done exactly what is written in the tax laws of whatever country I have lived in (many!).  If Thailand changes their tax laws to cancel the DTA then I would become concerned enough about the tax situation to possibly make other plans.  I do hope the RD folks are intelligent enough to THINK about all the possibilities concerning the tax situations of the expats as well as their own folks.

[Presnock]

17 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Until then, have your wife call TRD helpline #1161 to get valid information.

 

15 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

I know, that's why I said " with your logic" .

 

Meaning that, if he was trying to declare it this year, he should have also tried to declare it for many years previously. 

 

 

Current US-Thai DTA has been in effect since signing in 1997!  easy enough to check instead of guessing all the time.

[Presnock]

17 hours ago, thesetat said:

the lady was estimating without using any form. she showed me calculator showing 27000 baht for the amount of my SSI. Not including my kids portion. 

you could maybe get the same figure by checking with any of the taxagents!  at least you could get a 15-minute free consultation - especially if it is about exemption of US SS payments!  or just READ the US-Thai DTA article 20!

 

[redwood1]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

I am unsure as top why expats continue to go to local offices when they have no real reason to go.  Most answers we see are just that from local rd officers - no real idea,  some say file and RD will figure up your taxable amount and they have no idea if you have assessable on non assessable income.  I have read he RD notes, seen umptiump webinars and all basically say the same thing unless they want YOUR business.  Very few of us I think will have any real problems this year until the RD gets all their folks on board and they put out the same story.  Non-assessable income includes any income non-assessable due to exemption by DTA or exemption by Royal Decree or if there is some other exemption then non-assessable so nothing needs to be obtained from the local rd office.  Once the tax season filling is over in April then believe the RD will look at the results and unless some folks wake up then the RD will be swamped by zero tax forms filed or if enough expats wake up, very few filed.  Then the RD will probably look at remittances as provided by the local banks, and determine what least amount and above will get some kind of notice to proved the RD with ample evidence of exemptions.  If people have their documents ready, then this should be easy notice I said should be easy but do not really have any idea about the RD folks in general.  If however, I am targetted and the RD doesn't like my documentation even though the big exemptions are BOI LTR documents (visa) and DTA then I will contact the US Embassy and US State department that the RD is possibly violating the treaty with the US.  I do wish only the best of luck for everyone in this tax season.  I have always done exactly what is written in the tax laws of whatever country I have lived in (many!).  If Thailand changes their tax laws to cancel the DTA then I would become concerned enough about the tax situation to possibly make other plans.  I do hope the RD folks are intelligent enough to THINK about all the possibilities concerning the tax situations of the expats as well as their own folks.

 

Well on the other tax thread one guy had been to the tax office 4  yes 4 times because they would not give him a TIN and said he owed no taxes...

 

The guy could not let a sleeping horse lay.....And was desperate to pay taxes whether he owed them or not...

[Enzian]

11 hours ago, Sheryl said:

The only change is that in the  past if the money was remitted in a different year than it was earned, it was exempt. That loophole was closed as of tax year 2024. Nothing else changed. 

And has that change actually been set in stone, or does it need to be formally published or could it still be taken to court or something?

[Presnock]

47 minutes ago, Enzian said:

And has that change actually been set in stone, or does it need to be formally published or could it still be taken to court or something?

I could be mistaken but I thought this was published in the Gazette but in any case, it wasn't really a change to the law, just an interpretation that was used for many years so the arliament didn't have to weigh in on it.  Go back tro the original forums where this interpretation first began and read the thousands of guesses on the meanings and how it affects expats and local thai workers in or out of the country.

[Briggsy]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

 

Well on the other tax thread one guy had been to the tax office 4  yes 4 times because they would not give him a TIN and said he owed no taxes...

 

The guy could not let a sleeping horse lay.....And was desperate to pay taxes whether he owed them or not...

Indeed, many have become panicked by listening to unreliable sources rather than coolly analysing the situation and the facts.

 

Once panic takes hold (in any situation) rational decision-making goes right out of the window.

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

Well on the other tax thread one guy had been to the tax office 4  yes 4 times because they would not give him a TIN and said he owed no taxes...

 

The guy could not let a sleeping horse lay.....And was desperate to pay taxes whether he owed them or not...

like I have read too many times since last year and have responded too, plus numerous webinars from RD officials to tax agents to "tax experts" some of which did in fact produce accurate charts and info where one could read for themselves.  What I have seen ifrom hundreds of questions and answers, many times repeated daily, is that at this point everyone should realize that the Govt, Finance Ministry, Revenue Dept, tax agents, forum users, continue saying exactly what is at the beginning of this forum - this is an opinion forum.  Now, if one has specifics, one can go to the RD web page and can find some accurate information but which most likely will not fit 100% of one's question, thus must GUESS again.  Or one can go to one of the numerous local rd offices and learn that there too they will guess at your situation even if there is a CLEAR answer to many questions especially for American retirees on a civil service pension or drawing social security - this has been answered numerous times over the past year - there is no gray area about these two incomes - they are exempt by the DTA between the US and Thailand.  Other countries too have some exemptions.  Other retirees, not working in Thailand, have an LTR which exempts their foreign income remitted into Thailand.  Others have ony funds coming out of savings with documentation proving that these funds were in the savings account prior to 01 January 2023,  One group of LTR folks may be working with a BOI assisted work permit and thus pay a lower tax on their earnings - one can easily check out the benefits of  the BOI LTR.  Getting a tax ID number although one doesn't have any assessable income remitted - by definition, the RD should not issue a ID number and even when advised about this, the expat/foreigner wants to argue or continue seeking that ID number.  I sure don't understand what is wrong with some of these people.   But if someone wants to waste their time, achieve no workable and accurate filing tax forms that are incomplete and useless for that individual, I guess I should ask myself why even waste my time so  I will cease to respond to any queries on this subject but I do wish the best to all.

[Sigmund]

10 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

When counting days make sure to include both the day of arrival and departure and leave a few spare days in there as well just in case something comes up and you need to pop back over to Thailand or get delayed by a few days - assuming multiple trips back and forth throughout each year.

 

What I do is print out a calendar with 6 months on each side of an A4 piece of paper and literally write numbers on them for each country - one calendar per country. Can't go wrong with that approach and it matches my passport exactly. Then just keep it plus travel proofs / passport scans, etc. Be sure to NOT use automatic gates as you don't get a stamp - why complicate things when there's no need.

This is how I'm doing it - spent a good while in Phnom Penh last year, rented a place in Cambodia for a year - this year I'm moving to Siem Reap if I like it - going to check it out on my first trip out of the country.

For me Phnom Penh is a bit on the big side and everything's spread out too much, lots of traffic, etc - now Siem Reap looks a lot more like it and from what I hear it's a lot cheaper than Phnom Penh - which isn't expensive anyway - like half the price of Phnom Penh for houses/apartments. I guess I'll find out when I go there.......but I am definitely going back to Cambodia, and soon. Moving from Phnom Penh could be a bit of an annoyance but not too much - you can simply pay a company to do it all for you which is what I intend to do.

Why Cambodia? Easy Visas - you can get a 1 year visa very easily through an agent ($400-500 depending on the service speed you select), there's a few agents but I used one named 'Call Kim' who can be found on facebook ad mentioned in multiple forums - 100% legit and I've left and returned to the country multiple times using this visa over the last year.

When you enter you get an entry stamp but it doesn't have an exit date. Just tell them you're an investor and considering buying property if asked at immigration and you're in.

If you're over 55 you can get a retirement visa. Simple.
 

Very true for the automatic gates. But one needs to argue a bit with the usher pushing people towards the automated gates on departure from BKK airport. This is going to be another fine mess as immigration will obviously see a new opening to make fuss and harass the foreigner a bit more in Thailand due to the lack of a departure stamp.

 

India also has great visa incentives for upto 5 years and  none of the absurd requirements that Thailand imposes for long stay visas. The price of the long stay indian visa is also far less and one can see that India is now much more advanced and developped in many cases, compared to Thailand.

[Sheryl]

4 hours ago, Enzian said:

And has that change actually been set in stone, or does it need to be formally published or could it still be taken to court or something?

That change is in effect and final. It is not a tax  law change just a tweaking of RD regulation. 

[TheAppletons]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

like I have read too many times since last year and have responded too, plus numerous webinars from RD officials to tax agents to "tax experts" some of which did in fact produce accurate charts and info where one could read for themselves.  What I have seen ifrom hundreds of questions and answers, many times repeated daily, is that at this point everyone should realize that the Govt, Finance Ministry, Revenue Dept, tax agents, forum users, continue saying exactly what is at the beginning of this forum - this is an opinion forum.  Now, if one has specifics, one can go to the RD web page and can find some accurate information but which most likely will not fit 100% of one's question, thus must GUESS again.  Or one can go to one of the numerous local rd offices and learn that there too they will guess at your situation even if there is a CLEAR answer to many questions especially for American retirees on a civil service pension or drawing social security - this has been answered numerous times over the past year - there is no gray area about these two incomes - they are exempt by the DTA between the US and Thailand.  Other countries too have some exemptions.  Other retirees, not working in Thailand, have an LTR which exempts their foreign income remitted into Thailand.  Others have ony funds coming out of savings with documentation proving that these funds were in the savings account prior to 01 January 2023,  One group of LTR folks may be working with a BOI assisted work permit and thus pay a lower tax on their earnings - one can easily check out the benefits of  the BOI LTR.  Getting a tax ID number although one doesn't have any assessable income remitted - by definition, the RD should not issue a ID number and even when advised about this, the expat/foreigner wants to argue or continue seeking that ID number.  I sure don't understand what is wrong with some of these people.   But if someone wants to waste their time, achieve no workable and accurate filing tax forms that are incomplete and useless for that individual, I guess I should ask myself why even waste my time so  I will cease to respond to any queries on this subject but I do wish the best to all.

 

TLDR

 

[TheAppletons]

1 hour ago, Sigmund said:

India also has great visa incentives for upto 5 years and  none of the absurd requirements that Thailand imposes for long stay visas. The price of the long stay indian visa is also far less and one can see that India is now much more advanced and developped in many cases, compared to Thailand.

 

  I'd probably consider moving to India if it weren't for all of the Indians living there.  

[tlcwaterfall]

5 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

TLDR

 

Agree and again there are no paragraphs which makes the whole post difficult to read and pretty much useless despite its possible value.

 

Would be great if the poster would include paragraphs for the benefit of others.

[connda]

"Let no good deed go unpunished!"

Here you are, being an upright and honest foreign "resident" trying to do the right thing.  And then it backfires on you because you as a US citizen know more about the US-Thai DTA then the "experts" working in the Thai tax office.

Many of us who have lived here a long time warned ya'll off if you have done your homework, read your DTA, and worked out your taxes, and checked to see if you own the Thai government anything.  If you don't own anything, why file?  If you're under the exception thresholds, why file. If you choose to file, why divulge income that is exempt from taxation?  I can perfectly understand filing if you work here (did that in the past) or if you actually own them money as a tax resident, but when you don't owe them anything, why paint a target on your back?  🎯

Your story should be pinned as the "poster-child" of what can go wrong when you offer up information to government "experts" who aren't really "experts" at all. They're bureaucratic functionaries, not lawyers.  As you found out the average government employee working in a provincial tax office doesn't have a clue what is in all of the Dual Tax Agreement that Thailand has drawn up with God only knows how many different countries.  Even the top managers probably don't know - now there's "The Suck." Now you may need to spend your Social Security payment to hire a tax lawyer or a real tax expert to extricate you from the governmental, bureaucratic quick-sand that you've now sunk into.  Best of luck.  Let us know how it works out for ya so that other "good citizens" can wrap their heads around what can happen when dealing with a Thai bureaucracy.  Maybe, unlike yourself, they'll avoid the quick-sand. 

[mudcat]

Does anyone have a link to DTAs in Thai such as the RD has for the English language of the Thai-US?  

 

Having the Thai language would avoid misunderstandings.

[Everyman]

7 minutes ago, mudcat said:

Does anyone have a link to DTAs in Thai such as the RD has for the English language of the Thai-US?  

 

Having the Thai language would avoid misunderstandings.

 

I doubt they will care, whether the DTA is presented to them in Thai or not. They’d probably say something ridiculous like you have to pay them and then you have to get the money back from your government. Best avoid them. Literally just sitting on a bar stool drinking a warm chang is a better use of time. 

[bluemoon58]

On 2/11/2025 at 12:46 PM, thesetat said:

I just returned from the Prachuap Khiri Khan tax office at the Prachuap provincial office. (Not Hua Hin) I had my total amount that was transferred to fill in their forms. As well as proof the the monies were from Social Security office. 

While speaking to the personnel. They asked my wife where did my money come from. My wife showed them my form 1099 that showed how much was paid to me from the SSI. They then told her that all of that income on that piece of paper would be taxed and i would need to pay thousands on it to their office. I tried to explain to them (with wife's help in Thai) that the DTA for SSi to Thailand is not taxable. The tax office asked my wife why i got this money for mean she told them i was disabled. They asked me to show them proof of my disability. The office knew nothing about this and said I would need to pay on that amount and then clarified that disabled in Thailand are given proof of their disability and are only allotted an income of about 100,000 before they paid tax.. To make matters worse, the amount sent to Thailand was more than what i got from my SSDI. Because my children in Thailand also get SSDI and that is sent to my US account and then transferred to Thailand. They said only my income mattered that showed on my 1099 form. They did not care what was sent from the US to Thailand out of my pension. I then began thinking this tax office clearly has no idea about taxation laws and the DTA that applies to SSI pensions. 

I showed them online that SSI from the US to Thailand is not paid as per the DTA. They would not accept this.

( The US-Thailand Tax Agreement:
Under this agreement, US social security income is exempt from Thai taxation. This means if your primary source of income is US social security, you are not required to pay Thai taxes on this income, regardless of how and when it's transferred to your Thai bank account }

Again they wanted me to show proof that I was disabled as well. America does not issue proof for this as far as I know. WE do not carry a card around saying I get SSDI because I am disabled. Only when you require special services are you then given some document that grants permission for those services. (IE disabled parking, ramps, and other things that police will perhaps hassle you over. But not income from direct deposits coming from the SSI office. 

So here I am. Telling you the tax office here in Mueang Prachuap Khiri Khan. Has no clue about how to manage my taxes and are determined to make me pay thousands on my SSI. 

 

Does anyone know if another office (perhaps Hua Hin) is more knowledgeable in this and has an English speaker working there to assist us? 

 

I know if I file through this office, they will do it wrong and make me pay alot for no reason. 

Exactly the reason I'm doing feck all until they come knocking at my door! 

[DaLa]

35 minutes ago, Everyman said:

 

I doubt they will care, whether the DTA is presented to them in Thai or not. They’d probably say something ridiculous like you have to pay them and then you have to get the money back from your government. Best avoid them. Literally just sitting on a bar stool drinking a warm chang is a better use of time. 

My sentiment too. Tax is not my strong point so I avoid it which helps the revenue department waisting time with me on the matter. I was intrigued by the acronym 'DTA' , so I asked Pim 'do you do DTA Pim' and her eyes lit up  she said it was expensive but I'd enjoy it. Wow, 8 minutes later she was right. I'm a bit exhausted but I recommend it, try it guys.