Russia Dismisses Trump’s Ukraine Peace Plan Offers 3 Day Ceasefire

[Mike_Hunt]

Just now, Eric Loh said:

Nato was created by USA and other western allies to provide collective security against the the Soviet Union. Europe didn't drop the ball. It was a USA or rather Trump betrayal of the Nato doctrine. The betrayal has woken up Nato countries to step up. 

Europe is nothing but passive observers of events in their backyard. They always need the USA to fix their problems. 

[Eric Loh]

1 minute ago, Mike_Hunt said:

Europe is nothing but passive observers of events in their backyard. They always need the USA to fix their problems. 

They came to US aid after 9-11 and deploying troops and resources in US-led Afghanistan war. Passive?????

[Captain Flack]

Multiple flame posts removed. Discuss the topic and not other posters @dinsdale @BLMFem @Mike_Hunt

[dinsdale]

8 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Nato was created by USA and other western allies to provide collective security against the the Soviet Union. Europe didn't drop the ball. It was a USA or rather Trump betrayal of the Nato doctrine. The betrayal has woken up Nato countries to step up. 

How did Trump betray NATO? You say things but never go on to back them up. How about a google search and post something about "How Trump Betrayed NATO". Trump has from what I've seen said the EU has to cough up more money and stop relying on US taxpayers. Am I incorrect in this?

[Mike_Hunt]

3 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

They came to US aid after 9-11 and deploying troops and resources in US-led Afghanistan war. Passive?????

 

OMG..is that their only claim to fame since WW2.   The Euro's lack the means to defend themselves against Russia without the USA because they are more worried about their huge welfare state. 

[Jingthing]

45 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Let's see who's right. Basically if the US says no then it's no. NATO as it is exists as it is only because of the US. To think otherwise would be deluded.

Trump - Putin want to force Ukraine to NEVER be in NATO.

They should NEVER agree to that.

NEVER is a very long time.

[Jingthing]

18 minutes ago, Mike_Hunt said:

 

Biden gave them arms to stay in the game, but not win the game.  The goal to was to degrade Russia, which is why he would not allow US weapons to strike inside Russia. 

Only partly true. The reason Biden didn't go full throttle is that he fell for Putin's nuclear war threat games. Some may think that wise. Others don't. I don't,

[Mike_Hunt]

3 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

How did Trump betray NATO? You say things but never go on to back them up. How about a google search and post something about "How Trump Betrayed NATO". Trump has from what I've seen said the EU has to cough up more money and stop relying on US taxpayers. Am I incorrect in this?

You are 100% correct. The USA liberated Europe in the 1940s.   The USA spent a ton of money rebuilding Europe. Then, the USA defended Europe against the USSR during the Cold War.  It's time they got their balls back and built a real military

[BLMFem]

1 minute ago, Eric Loh said:

They came to US aid after 9-11 and deploying troops and resources in US-led Afghanistan war. Passive?????

Yep, as has been pointed out article 5 has been invoked one time only, by the US after 9/11. Attached are the casualty figures of US allies.

[BLMFem]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Trump - Putin want to force Ukraine to NEVER be in NATO.

They should NEVER agree to that.

NEVER is a very long time.

Of course they should tell Putin to go have Russian sex with himself. Ukraine is a sovereign country and decides it's own foreign policy.

[Eric Loh]

1 minute ago, dinsdale said:

How did Trump betray NATO? You say things but never go on to back them up. How about a google search and post something about "How Trump Betrayed NATO". Trump has from what I've seen said the EU has to cough up more money and stop relying on US taxpayers. Am I incorrect in this?

Trump siding with the principal adversary is a betrayal. His transactional pressure on Nato in the midst of the Ukraine war is a betrayal; perhaps to embolden Putin in his quest. 

[frank83628]

46 minutes ago, BLMFem said:

Correct. Russia must be defeated militarily, ideologically, economically and politically. Only then can it be rebuilt into a reliable strategic partner.

Yeah right get real!

how old are you to have that mentality? Its 2025, not 1975. Russia isn't going to be defeated, the world will be destroyed before that happens, don't forget Russia was an allie in WW2, only after did the US <deleted> on them and the cold war began.

[dinsdale]

17 minutes ago, Mike_Hunt said:

 

Biden gave them arms to stay in the game, but not win the game.  The goal to was to degrade Russia, which is why he would not allow US weapons to strike inside Russia. 

Correct. This was the US's goal and still is the EU's goal. I've said this many times and asked for responses many times but as I've said previously I only get deflections, unintelligent responses and negative emojis. The level of intelligence on this forum has IMHO dropped dramatically in the last few years. Now flooded with deflections, outright stupidity and a certain mass delusion emanating from the looney left.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Eric Loh said:

Trump siding with the principal adversary is a betrayal. His transactional pressure on Nato in the midst of the Ukraine war is a betrayal; perhaps to embolden Putin in his quest. 

Plus of course threatening to make Canada America and to steal Greenland from Denmark. With the leading NATO country acting that outrageously, it's true NATO might already be in effect over. The Baltic States have no reason to believe that the U.S. led NATO will help them if/when Russia comes calling.  A new institution without the USA could be formed or some other response. Anyway, before NATO if it still survives, Ukraine can become part of the EU. 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Correct. This was the US's goal and still is the EU's goal. I've said this many times and asked for responses many times but as I've said previously I only get deflections, unintelligent responses and negative emojis. The level of intelligence on this forum has IMHO dropped dramatically in the last few years. Now flooded with deflections, outright stupidity and a certain mass delusion emanating from the looney left.

Bull.

Leaving out the being cowered by the nuclear threats means his statement is NOT CORRECT.

[rough diamond]

36 minutes ago, Mike_Hunt said:

 

Europe is lazy.   They don't like hard work. 

Stupid comment.

You cannot say that all the citizens of any one country, religion, political party etc. all have the same traits, mannerisms etc!

 

That would be like saying that all Trump's MAGAmaniacs held the same views! 😕

[rough diamond]

1 hour ago, dinsdale said:

Let's see who's right. Basically if the US says no then it's no. NATO as it is exists as it is only because of the US. To think otherwise would be deluded.

Explain!

[jas007]

4 minutes ago, Mike_Hunt said:

You are 100% correct. The USA liberated Europe in the 1940s.   The USA spent a ton of money rebuilding Europe. Then, the USA defended Europe against the USSR during the Cold War.  It's time they got their balls back and built a real military

Of course, they're already on the verge of bankruptcy.  Spending billions on a revitalized military is just a recipe for trouble.  For what purpose? To fight a ground war with Russia and possibly start WW III in the process when that didn't go as planned?

 

Remember, it's one thing to fund military hardware.  It's something else again to be able to advantageously deploy that military to fight a real ground war in Russia's back yard. That has been tried before, at least twice in  modern history.  Napoleon thought he could do it, but no.  Hitler thought he could do it, but how did that turn out?  And more recently,  we have the Ukraine proxy war with the West. Again. the outcome was predictable. 

 

To fight a modern war, you need to be able to maintain supply chains. Fuel, equipment, repairs. It's a massive undertaking. Try doing that in the winter in that part of the world.  Russia won't sit back and watch.  The EU wouldn't be able to assemble and sustain a military force that had even  a remote chance of success. 

 

 

[candide]

53 minutes ago, Mike_Hunt said:

 

Yea, this where the lazy Europeans should have stepped up.   But, they dropped the ball. 

By truncating my post you altered its meaning, which was to reflect on a ridiculous conspiracy theory.

 

The text of my full post was:

 

"The reason you did not get any intelligent reply is likely that this conspiracy theory is irrealistic.

 

Starting with the fact that, as I outlined in  my post, European countries were completely unprepared to support Ukraine, as evidenced by the improvisation that characterised their initial response. No strategic stock of weapons, no sufficient weapon production capacity, and no established doctrine on how to support Ukraine. Not to mention the profitable economic ties with Russia.

 

I talk about "European countries", because the EU has no defense prerogative and is not the institution in which military plans were discussed. The relevant institution is NATO.

 

As to the U.S., it had the capacity to support Ukraine, but no clear doctrine about Ukraine, and also improvised. Actually, it was rather focused on Asia rather than Russia, since Obama's tenure. It was the neocons under Bush Jr. who were still focused on Russia."

[dinsdale]

5 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Trump siding with the principal adversary is a betrayal. His transactional pressure on Nato in the midst of the Ukraine war is a betrayal; perhaps to embolden Putin in his quest. 

Trump siding with Putin is only what you have conceived in your mind which has been planted and fermented by the looney left progressive democrats, the looney left legacy media and all those looney progressive leftists parroting the message. Trump needs to deal with two stubborn opponents. One quite clearly has the military upper hand and the other doesn't. One wants to keep what has been taken and the other doesn't want it to be taken away. Militarily Putin clearly has the upper hand. The only hand to be played by the US and the EU is economic. This whole betrayal and Putin's puppet rubbish is so far from reality yet those of you afflicted with the syndrome hold onto it. Rationale my friends has left you behind. 

[rough diamond]

1 hour ago, BLMFem said:

Correct. Russia must be defeated militarily, ideologically, economically and politically. Only then can it be rebuilt into a reliable strategic partner.

Another perestroika would help!

[dinsdale]

19 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Bull.

Leaving out the being cowered by the nuclear threats means his statement is NOT CORRECT.

The nuclear thing was Putin sabre rattling as he does but pushed by legacy media to make the sheeple believe there was a real threat. 

[johng]

2 hours ago, rough diamond said:

How do you know that there may not be another perestroika?

How do you know that that Putin's replacement wouldn't be a hardline

anti westerner  hell bent on all out war ?

 

[candide]

13 minutes ago, jas007 said:

Of course, they're already on the verge of bankruptcy.  Spending billions on a revitalized military is just a recipe for trouble.  For what purpose? To fight a ground war with Russia and possibly start WW III in the process when that didn't go as planned?

 

Remember, it's one thing to fund military hardware.  It's something else again to be able to advantageously deploy that military to fight a real ground war in Russia's back yard. That has been tried before, at least twice in  modern history.  Napoleon thought he could do it, but no.  Hitler thought he could do it, but how did that turn out?  And more recently,  we have the Ukraine proxy war with the West. Again. the outcome was predictable. 

 

To fight a modern war, you need to be able to maintain supply chains. Fuel, equipment, repairs. It's a massive undertaking. Try doing that in the winter in that part of the world.  Russia won't sit back and watch.  The EU wouldn't be able to assemble and sustain a military force that had even  a remote chance of success. 

 

 

You are right that European countries don't have the logistical means to conduct a war without U.S. capabilities, at least on short term.

 

As to the EU, it wouldn't be able to do that in any case, as defense is not a prerogative of the EU. The only thing it can do  is support initiatives by member States.

[rough diamond]

7 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

 This whole betrayal and Putin's puppet rubbish is so far from reality yet those of you afflicted with the syndrome hold onto it. Rationale my friends has left you behind. 

This whole betrayal and Putin's puppet rubbish is so far from reality yet those of you afflicted with the syndrome hold onto it. Rationale my friends has left you behind. 

[johng]

34 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Correct. This was the US's goal and still is the EU's goal.

No it was all about defending democracy in Ukraine and the rules based world order

 

...never a proxy war atempting to weaken Russia and provoke "regime change"  no never.

[dinsdale]

2 minutes ago, rough diamond said:

This whole betrayal and Putin's puppet rubbish is so far from reality yet those of you afflicted with the syndrome hold onto it. Rationale my friends has left you behind. 

Again your intellect is on full display for all to see. 

[dinsdale]

Just now, johng said:

No it was all about defending democracy in Ukraine and the rules based world order

 

...never a proxy war atempting to weaken Russia and provoke "regime change"  no never.

Yeh I'm with you. The line fed to and absorbed by the sheeple. Reminds me of get vaccinated to save granny.

[rough diamond]

2 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Again your intellect is on full display for all to see. 

More insults but no answers.

 

 

[rough diamond]

2 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Yeh I'm with you. The line fed to and absorbed by the sheeple. Reminds me of get vaccinated to save granny.

What an intellectual response!