Just now, stevenl said:

I don't understand how anyone can honestly state Palestinians are not being oppressed.

 

And yes, they have expressed their discontent many times.

Whatever oppression exists in Gaza is a result of a series of bad decisions made by the Gazan people. From electing Hamas, to allowing them to stay in power, to turning the other way when Hamas stole foreign aid in order to build terror tunnels, to assenting to their children being forcefed insane antisemitic propaganda in schools, to becoming one of the worst places on earth for women and LGBT folks.  None of these are the fault of Israel. They are all purely at the feet of the Gazans themselves.

 

So then, why did they choose this particular way to express their discontent? What was it about slaughtering the innocent, raping teenage girls until they died, and mutilating their victims, that so appealed to the Palestinians?  

12 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

And they failed miserably. If anything, Israel is now one of the preeminent powers in the world and we have reestablished our position as the ones who decide what happens.. Time for the next step, Iran, Russia, North Korea. Then the greatest threat to humanity after those little nitpicks are done, the xenophobic, racist and murderous Han socialist empire

 

I think you need help.

Isreal has wanted gaza for a long time. It has nothing to do with that small border attack.

 

That land on the water there is very valuable for some reason. I heard Trump comment on it while he was talking once how valuable it was.

7 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Whatever oppression exists in Gaza is a result of a series of bad decisions made by the Gazan people. From electing Hamas, to allowing them to stay in power, to turning the other way when Hamas stole foreign aid in order to build terror tunnels, to assenting to their children being forcefed insane antisemitic propaganda in schools, to becoming one of the worst places on earth for women and LGBT folks.  None of these are the fault of Israel. They are all purely at the feet of the Gazans themselves.

 

So then, why did they choose this particular way to express their discontent? What was it about slaughtering the innocent, raping teenage girls until they died, and mutilating their victims, that so appealed to the Palestinians?  

 

It all goes back to their land being stolen. 

Just now, Mark1969 said:

Isreal has wanted gaza for a long time. It has nothing to do with that small border attack.

Uh, Israel actually HAD Gaza for a long time, from 1967 to 2005. Then gave it back.  Maybe it was a mistake.

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

 

It all goes back to their land being stolen. 

Explain.

 

Lots of land "got stolen" in the after math of WW2. Millions of people were displaced and forced to move, from Asia to Europe.  

 

What is the connection between stolen land and gang rape?

15 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Explain.

 

Lots of land "got stolen" in the after math of WW2. Millions of people were displaced and forced to move, from Asia to Europe.  

 

What is the connection between stolen land and gang rape?

You're looking at it in isolation. Which no logical thinking person, looking at the big picture, would do or justify.

Can amy of you pro-palastinians explain why the neighbouring Muslim countries refuse to take in Palastinian refugees?  (This is a rhetorical question, because I have read factual information from accredited sources about exactly why all those countries refuse the Palastinians...)

7 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Can amy of you pro-palastinians explain why the neighbouring Muslim countries refuse to take in Palastinian refugees?  (This is a rhetorical question, because I have read factual information from accredited sources about exactly why all those countries refuse the Palastinians...)

What do you mean with 'pro palestinian'? You mean people condemning Israel for it's actions are pro palestinian?

32 minutes ago, Mark1969 said:

Isreal has wanted gaza for a long time. It has nothing to do with that small border attack.

 

That land on the water there is very valuable for some reason. I heard Trump comment on it while he was talking once how valuable it was.

I find most of your pro Palestinian buddies' (code words for anti Semites) comments above fairly disgusting although for some reason your comment is pathetic. You would all be whistling a different tune if any of your family was caught in that "small border attack!" 

46 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You're looking at it in isolation. Which no logical thinking person, looking at the big picture, would do or justify.

Not at all.  Just trying to see the connection.

 

Looking back at history, some 12 million Germans were displaced and had their land stolen, similar to the Palestinian Arabs.  Yet for some reason they are not still refugees, they don't have UN agencies dedicated to perpetuating their grievances.  They moved on and realized that part of the price of losing a war is that sometimes you lose your home too.

 

So again, the connection from displacement to rape? 

3 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

As I said earlier....

 

Another poster on another thread, summed it up with "An independent thinker should consider all sides of the equation. Ask why people do that as well as condemning any inhuman action. Root cause is what they argue about. I’m not connected to either side. Just looking at it objectively it is Israel that started it all by trying to resurrect their glory days of king David ie restore the original land by stealing it from whoever is living there Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan etc. scary thing is they’re committed to expanding even more than what they have stolen already. But it is starting to backfire and likely the region will be pissed off so much that they’ll turn on them. American support is dwindling as they start to see the real Israel. "

 

What an uneducated drivel. Every single territorial expansion, since 1956, came as a result of Arab attacks.. 

 

The West Bank and the Sinai have been conquered in 1967 and 1973 at a high cost to Israel following unjustifiable coordinated attacks from all bordering countries. Yet the Sinai has been handed back at Camp David, sadly. 

 

IMO Israel has been way to lenient until October 7.

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Whatever oppression exists in Gaza is a result of a series of bad decisions made by the Gazan people.

 

There is no doubt the October 7th massacres were horrific, absolutely terrible events and of course our sympathies are with the civilians who suffered such atrocities. However, this statement is patently untrue.

 

The oppression in Gaza is a not the result of decisions made by Gazans, but very obviously it is the result of decisions made by Israelis. Since it is Israelis who have the power to oppress. The Gazans are powerless.

 

13 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Looking back at history, some 12 million Germans were displaced and had their land stolen, similar to the Palestinian Arabs.  Yet for some reason they are not still refugees, they don't have UN agencies dedicated to perpetuating their grievances.  They moved on and realized that part of the price of losing a war is that sometimes you lose your home too.

 

The displacement of Germans was not similar to the Palestinians, it was done following a prolonged period of highly intense and terrible war that lasted 6 years. The Palestinians were displaced merely as a result of immigration influx allowed by the British and the conflicts that followed took place over many decades. The grievances built up and were perpetuated over many years. Whereas the displacement of Germans was short lived, relatively speaking confined to months after the end of war.'

 

Since Germany had indeed lost a major war, which Germans knew they played a major role in precipitating, obviously the psychological situation is very different. Even so, for decades there were associations in Germany dedicated to regaining the land, and it was only in the 90s when this claim was finally relinquished., wiith the chance for German reunification.

 

Thus Germans achieved some kind of restitution, some kind of reconstitution of territorial integrity, which glossed over the losses in the East. Palestinians have no such substantial gains, rather the opposite, Israel has taken more, and more and more and more and more land. Leaving the Palestinians almost nothing. Unlike the Allies, who were substantially more generous in terms of territory.

 

As the victims of the German displacement died off, their descendants were not subjected to similar atrocities. However, generation after generation of Plaestinians has been brutalised by the Israelis.

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

 

There is no doubt the October 7th massacres were horrific, absolutely terrible events and of course our sympathies are with the civilians who suffered such atrocities. However, this statement is patently untrue.

 

The oppression in Gaza is a not the result of decisions made by Gazans, but very obviously it is the result of decisions made by Israelis. Since it is Israelis who have the power to oppress. The Gazans are powerless.

 

 

The displacement of Germans was not similar to the Palestinians, it was done following a prolongue period of highly intense and terrible war that lasted 6 years. The Palestinians were displaced merely as a result of immigration influx allowed by the British and the conflicts that followed took place over many decades. The grievances built up and were perpetuated over many years. Whereas the displacement of Germans was short lived, relatively speaking confined to months after the end of war.'

 

Since Germany had indeed lost a major war, which Germans knew they played a major role in precipitating, obviously the psychological situation is very different. Even so, for decades there were associations in Germany dedicated to regaining the land, and it was only in the 90s when this claim was finally relinquished., wiith the chance for German reunification.

 

Thus Germans achieved some kind of restitution, some kind of reconstitution of territorial integrity, which glossed over the losses in the East. Palestinians have no such substnatial gains, rather the opposite, Israel has taken more, and more and more and more and more land. Leaving the Palestinians almost nothing. Unlike the Allies, who were substantially more generous in terms of territory.

 

As the victims of the German displacement died off, their descendants were not subjected to similar atrocities. However, generation after generation of Plaestinians has been brutalised by the Israelis.

Not true. The Germans were PERMANENTLY displaced, especially from eastern European areas like East Prussia and parts of Poland/Czechoslovakia. It was not temporary.. They were forcibly moved to West Germany.  There was no hope of regaining their land or property.

 

The Palestinians were also displaced due to war, just like the Germans. The Arab League, including the Palestinians, tried to exterminate Israel in 1948, with the promise to the Palestinian Arabs that they could occupy the homes and land of murdered Jews once the war was over.  

 

The main difference is that the displaced Palestinians were never allowed to assimilate or naturalize into any of the surrounding Arab/Muslim states. The Arab League, which started the war, disowned them. Even children born in countries like Lebanon or Egypt were denied citizenship. If there is any fault, it lies with the Arabs themselves, who abandoned their "brothers".

17 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Looking back at history, some 12 million Germans were displaced and had their land stolen, similar to the Palestinian Arabs.  Yet for some reason they are not still refugees, they don't have UN agencies dedicated to perpetuating their grievances.  They moved on and realized that part of the price of losing a war is that sometimes you lose your home too.

 

1948 Arab-Israeli War and Displacement: Following the outbreak of war and the displacement of over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs, the UN General Assembly passed Resolution 212 in 1948, establishing the UN Relief for Palestine Refugees (UNRPR).
UNRWA's Creation (1949): The UN General Assembly later passed Resolution 194 and created the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) to continue providing relief, job creation, and public works projects for the refugees as an ultimate solution remained pending.

13 minutes ago, Peter Crow said:

 

What an uneducated drivel. Every single territorial expansion, since 1956, came as a result of Arab attacks.. 

 

The West Bank and the Sinai have been conquered in 1967 and 1973 at a high cost to Israel following unjustifiable coordinated attacks from all bordering countries. Yet the Sinai has been handed back at Camp David, sadly. 

 

IMO Israel has been way to lenient until October 7.

Regardless of attacks, it’s a war crime to change borders through force.

 

Those territories need returning.

 

You may disagree, BUT THAT IS THE LAW.

3 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

1948 Arab-Israeli War and Displacement: Following the outbreak of war and the displacement of over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs, the UN General Assembly passed Resolution 212 in 1948, establishing the UN Relief for Palestine Refugees (UNRPR).
UNRWA's Creation (1949): The UN General Assembly later passed Resolution 194 and created the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) to continue providing relief, job creation, and public works projects for the refugees as an ultimate solution remained pending.

True. But they were not ever accepted by their Muslim brothers. They were always fed the propaganda that "some day" they could return home and claim their heritage.  Germans from former East Prussia can't do that.  The problem was allowed to fester by the UN and the cowards in the Arab League for too long. 

 

They fought a war and lost.  C'est la vie.  If Israel had lost, what would have become of THEM?

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think you need help.

As opposed to  you being beyond help.

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Regardless of attacks, it’s a war crime to change borders through force.

 

Those territories need returning.

 

You may disagree, BUT THAT IS THE LAW.

Tell that to the attendees at the Potsdam Conference in 1945, which authorized this. Or the Poles and Soviets, who were eager to rid themselves of their ethnic German citizens. 

 

Post war Europe (and Asia) look a little different from pre-war, don't they.

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

You may disagree, BUT THAT IS THE LAW.

 The USA decides what the law is.  If you don't like what we decide sucks to be you

16 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Not true. The Germans were PERMANENTLY displaced, especially from eastern European areas like East Prussia and parts of Poland/Czechoslovakia. It was not temporary.. They were forcibly moved to West Germany.  There was no hope of regaining their land or property.

 

i think you misunderstood, I did not suggested the thefts of German lands by Poland, Russia, Czechia, Romania were not permanent, but the actual acts of displacement were relatively short periods of violence suffered by Germans as they were ethnically cleansed. It was a relatively short period of time after the war.

 

However, the Palestinians have suffered this violence and brutalisation (admittedly not as severe as the Germans suffered) over many decades, again and again.

 

I am quite sure if Germans had been treated this way, they too would still be fighting.

 

Indeed they only gave up the claims in the 1990s to support reunification of an even more important part of Germany that was stolen. 

 

But these situations are fundamentally different, the Germans did not suffer brutalisation over many decades. The Palestinians did.

 

The Germans were able to regain the majority of their territory. The Palestinians were not.

1 minute ago, Hanaguma said:

True. But they were not ever accepted by their Muslim brothers. They were always fed the propaganda that "some day" they could return home and claim their heritage.  Germans from former East Prussia can't do that.  The problem was allowed to fester by the UN and the cowards in the Arab League for too long. 

 

They fought a war and lost.  C'est la vie.  If Israel had lost, what would have become of THEM?

 

So, after the World fought WW1/WW2 the victors came together to create the United Nations, irrespective of our opinions of that body the law is the law.

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

What do you mean with 'pro palestinian'? You mean people condemning Israel for it's actions are pro palestinian?

 

   He said pro Palestinian , he didn't say Anti Semites .

Wait your turn 

16 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

They were always fed the propaganda that "some day" they could return home and claim their heritage.  Germans from former East Prussia can't do that. 

 

No, the Germans also held on to the dream that one day they could return to their stolen territories. For many decades after the war. Even German governments like Helmut Kohl refused to relinquish the claim to the stolen territories.

 

Until the Russians opened the door to the possibility of German reunification. Kohl quickly realised that he'd have to give up revanchist claim if he was going to have any hope of persuading the Russians to accept reunification. So the CDU veered towards this relinquishing of claims on the stolen German lands, in order to regain even more important, even larger territories stolen by Russia. A very logical and rational strategy.

 

The Germans gave up some claims for even greater tangible results.

 

The Palestinians do not have the possibility of such tangible results. Hence nothing but dreams to hold on to. Even the Palestinian state dream is empty.

9 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

i think you misunderstood, I did not suggested the thefts of German lands by Poland, Russia, Czechia, Romania were not permanent, but the actual acts of displacement were relatively short periods of violence suffered by Germans as they were ethnically cleansed. It was a relatively short period of time after the war.

 

However, the Palestinians have suffered this violence and brutalisation (admittedly not as severe as the Germans suffered) over many decades, again and again.

 

I am quite sure if Germans had been treated this way, they too would still be fighting.

 

Indeed they only gave up the claims in the 1990s to support reunification of an even more important part of Germany that was stolen. 

 

But these situations are fundamentally different, the Germans did not suffer brutalisation over many decades. The Palestinians did.

 

The Germans were able to regain the majority of their territory. The Palestinians were not.

The Palestinians did not suffer at the hands of Israel. They suffered at the hands of their Arab friends. Not Israel's fault if the Arab League did not want Palestinians as citizens. THe Arabs allowed the Plalestinians to languish in camps, instead of taking them in as immigrants. 

 

And the displaced Germans did NOT regain ANY of the lost territory. None. In many cases, they were simply expelled from existing countries like the USSR and Checkoslovakia.  WIth zero compensation.  It was a six year process, in which time they were brutalized, robbed, used as forced labour, etc. 

2 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

No, the Germans also held on to the dream that one day they could return to their stolen territories. For many decades after the war. Even German governments like Helmut Kohl refused to relinquish the claim to the stolen territories.

 

Until the Russians opened the door to the possibility of German reunification. Kohl quickly realised that he'd have to give up revanchist claim if he was going to have any hope of persuading the Russians to accept reunification. So the CDU veered towards this relinquishing of claims on the stolen German lands, in order to regain even more important, even larger territories stolen by Russia. A very logical and rational strategy.

 

The Germans gave up some claims for even greater tangible results.

 

The Palestinians do not have the possibility of such tangible results. Hence nothing but dreams to hold on to. Even the Palestinian state dream is empty.

Yes, they kept the dream alive, however unrealistic. Yet they did not riot or rape or commit acts of terror in Poland or the USSR. They did not fire missiles, blow up busses, or massacre the elderly. 

 

The Palestinians were done dirty by the Arabs. Simple as that. 

20 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

 The USA decides what the law is.  If you don't like what we decide sucks to be you

"We", can you tell us what your involvement is........?  🤔

4 minutes ago, transam said:

"We", can you tell us what your involvement is........?  🤔

Typical stalking troll comment from you

7 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

The Palestinians were done dirty by the Arabs. Simple as that. 

 

They were clearly to some degree. Yet if we take the Arab nations to task for not taking refugees, which we should, of course we cannot ignore the real causation of the Palestinian refugee problem, the nation of Israel. So clearly they need to bear the greatest part of the responsibility.

 

Unlike the Allies with Germany, who had learnt after WW1 that oppressing a people leads to more war, and thus adopted a more enlightened attitude after WWII when it came to rebuilding, the Israelis have not had this experience. They have only taken from the Palestinians with very predictable results.

 

 

1 minute ago, Cameroni said:

 

They were clearly to some degree. Yet if we take the Arab nations to task for not taking refugees, which we should, of course we cannot ignore the real causation of the Palestinian refugee problem, the nation of Israel. So clearly they need to bear the greatest part of the responsibility.

 

Unlike the Allies with Germany, who had learnt after WW1 that oppressing a people leads to more war, and thus adopted a more enlightened attitude after WWII when it came to rebuilding, the Israelis have not had this experience. They have only taken from the Palestinians with very predictable results.

 

 

You are getting close to the truth. The real causation was the INVASION of the nation of Israel.  By the Arabs. And the failure of that invasion.  

 

An interesting parallel exists though. Across North Africa and the Middle East, close to one million Jews were kicked out of their homes and off their land, with no compensation. This happened from 1948-60.  Did THEY become terrorists? Did THEY demand to return to their homes? 

 

Again, displacement was a fact of life up to very recently.