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Joint tenants with right of suvivorship

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I'm having a problem with my Thai wife understanding the difference between a US bank/brokerage account JTROS and our Bangkok Bank joint account.  She thinks they work the same upon my death.  It's my understanding that our JTROS passes directly to her without going through Thai probate.  She doesn't believe me!  I understand that, in Thailand some (not all) Thai banks offer a "pay on death" arrangement. but these accounts still have to be probated in Thailand. Correct?  Is there ANY type of joint Thai bank account whereby the survivor can avoid waiting for/dealing with probate?

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  • My understanding, and I might be wrong, is that:   If the Surviving Spouse Is a Non-Citizen Non-Domiciliary  (the case here)   As with domiciliaries, the unlimited marital deductio

  • Yeah. I've read many threads re this.  Even recall where teller told customer to withdraw all money ASAP using ATM.  Some crazy advice.  One option is to use income method.  After

  • Essentially, they're not. In the US and in Thailand -- assets in an either/or joint account pass to the surviving tenant with no need for a Will or probate. This is well defined and understood for US

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2 hours ago, udontomi said:

Is there ANY type of joint Thai bank account whereby the survivor can avoid waiting for/dealing with probate?

 

I don't know any details but it's been posted before there is a joint account described as an either/or account which allows a survivor to carry on using it in the even of the other holder's death.

30 minutes ago, treetops said:

 

I don't know any details but it's been posted before there is a joint account described as an either/or account which allows a survivor to carry on using it in the even of the other holder's death.

Your posts I find spot on. 

Not sure about this one. 

Lot of misinformation about what happens upon death of account holder even if its a joint account. imo hearsay that access to account is unrestricted

 

12 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Your posts I find spot on. 

Not sure about this one. 

Lot of misinformation about what happens upon death of account holder even if its a joint account. imo hearsay that access to account is unrestricted

 

As I said, no personal experience but it has been mentioned several times in banking related threads.  I've no idea of the accuracy of the posts but they come from a few different sources (although at least one was a retread I think).

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1053324-joint-bank-account-requiring-only-1-signature/

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1328519-is-it-possible-for-a-non-thai-and-thai-married-couple-to-have-a-joint-bank-account/#comment-18952756

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1317924-joint-bank-account-with-thai-partner/#comment-18642165

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1345982-anyone-use-a-pod-pay-on-death-form-with-their-thai-bank/#comment-19441757

 

42 minutes ago, treetops said:

I've no idea of the accuracy of the posts but they come from a few different sources (although at least one was a retread I think).

Yeah. I've read many threads re this. 

Even recall where teller told customer to withdraw all money ASAP using ATM. 

Some crazy advice. 

One option is to use income method. 

After many years on retirement extensions using 800k all read round, I now use income and as soon as funds (monthly) hit my account they transfed into my Thai partner account. 

Basically zero balance in my Thai bank account 

The advice that a surviving spouse should use the ATM card after the other spouse's death to withdraw money out of an account (any account, joint or not!) was something I heard a lawyer state to a farang i was helping recently to prepare a last Will and Testament.

On 11/8/2025 at 12:22 PM, udontomi said:

I'm having a problem with my Thai wife understanding the difference between a US bank/brokerage account JTROS and our Bangkok Bank joint account.  She thinks they work the same upon my death.  It's my understanding that our JTROS passes directly to her without going through Thai probate

Just asking. Did you look into the US tax consequences of a JTROS? I was considering naming my wife as a beneficiary on my Fidelity brokerage & Chase bank accounts until I read some of the rules (see below). Also, I read if I put her in my WILL which had to go through probate, there would be a 40% tax on any monies above $60k. So, my plan is to let my daughter transfer money to my non-US citizen spouse up to the yearly gift exclusion limits to avoid any US tax consequences.

 

Holding property in joint tenancy with a non-citizen spouse is generally not recommended due to significant U.S. estate tax complications, as the surviving spouse may face a full estate tax liability on the entire property's value instead of a 50% split.

 

What happens when the U.S. citizen spouse passes away naming the non-U.S. citizen spouse as beneficiary? The answer is, the non-U.S. citizen spouse can inherit property in the manner as a citizen. However, under federal estate tax rules, a surviving spouse who is not a U.S. citizen must pay taxes on the inherited amount. The unlimited marital deduction rule does not apply! The federal government does not want someone who isn’t a citizen to inherit assets and pay no estate tax for fear that those assets would leave the country untaxed.

  • Author

Thanks, but many replies are off-topic.  My question is not how Thai joint accounts work, but how to explain to my Thai wife how US JTROS are DIFFERENT from Thai joint tenancies.

6 hours ago, udontomi said:

My question is not how Thai joint accounts work, but how to explain to my Thai wife how US JTROS are DIFFERENT from Thai joint tenancies.

Good luck with that. I don't know if anyone on this forum will be able to adequately explain the DIFFERENCE in legalese or in layman's terms (plain english). I will be curiously waiting to see if someone can explain.

8 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

I will be curiously waiting to see if someone can explain.

Me too. 

Fact is I'm not sure why the OP is bringing US JTROS  into consideration. 

I would have thought that having a Thai WILL a good way to ensure any assets go to the Thai wife in Thailand. 

He has not indicated what these assets are (bank a/c, real estate etc) 

The old saying "keep it simple" comes to mind. 

3 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Fact is I'm not sure why the OP is bringing US JTROS  into consideration. 

I would have thought that having a Thai WILL a good way to ensure any assets go to the Thai wife in Thailand. 

He has not indicated what these assets are (bank a/c, real estate etc) 

The old saying "keep it simple" comes to mind. 

I agree with you about the Thai WILL. I don't know why the OP is bringing up the US JTROS either. Thai banks may have different rules. It would be better if they would go to Bangkok Bank and ask. If Bangkok Bank says their joint account needs to pass through probate, then a Thai WILL is the way to go.

  • Author

Explanation:  We have most of our assets in a US bank in JTROS.  My wife is concerned that when I die she will be blocked by Thai probate from having immediate ownership of the JTROS accounts.  Trying to explain to her that Thailand inheritance rules don't apply to US accounts.  A Thai will doesn't include foreign assets, does it?

Chat GPT is getting better and better at this sort of thing.  It can answer questions and explain pretty much anything in both Thai and English and do it at a simple or more complex level.  I use it often now when teaching legal concepts to Thai students in a Thai business law class.  (It still makes mistakes sometimes but rarely and nowhere near how bad it was at first.)

22 hours ago, udontomi said:

how to explain to my Thai wife how US JTROS are DIFFERENT from Thai joint tenancies.

Essentially, they're not. In the US and in Thailand -- assets in an either/or joint account pass to the surviving tenant with no need for a Will or probate. This is well defined and understood for US accounts. Thai joint bank accounts, however, have been reported to have been frozen, in a few cases, by a confused bank manager. As suggested, check with your bank manager to confirm he/she is onboard with the 'no probate' scenario. Make sure the wife hears the verdict, then maybe she'll feel more comfortable about both your US accounts and Thai accounts.

 

By the way, Thailand has no "pay on death" options that allow assets to escape probate.

On 11/8/2025 at 12:22 PM, udontomi said:

I'm having a problem with my Thai wife understanding the difference between a US bank/brokerage account JTROS and our Bangkok Bank joint account. 

 

 

On 11/8/2025 at 12:22 PM, udontomi said:

It's my understanding that our JTROS passes directly to her without going through Thai probate.


Thai courts don't have legal jurisdiction over your US accounts set up as JTROS.  All my US bank/brokerage accounts are JTROS. When I die, my wife can contact the bank and the bank will liquidate my holdings and wire her the money in those accounts.  No need to go through US probate court. It has zero to do with Thai probate.

On 11/8/2025 at 4:53 PM, DrJack54 said:

Yeah. I've read many threads re this. 

Even recall where teller told customer to withdraw all money ASAP using ATM. 

Well there you have it.  My wife can draw down my accounts linked to AMT card. She'll have to go through Thai probate to access my savings accounts which are clearly mentioned in my Last Will and Testament. 

37 minutes ago, udontomi said:

A Thai will doesn't include foreign assets, does it?

Not if you don't want it to. Just make sure it says up front that this Will "covers only my Thai assets." 

On 11/11/2025 at 9:34 PM, JohnnyBD said:

Just asking. Did you look into the US tax consequences of a JTROS? I was considering naming my wife as a beneficiary on my Fidelity brokerage & Chase bank accounts until I read some of the rules (see below). Also, I read if I put her in my WILL which had to go through probate, there would be a 40% tax on any monies above $60k. So, my plan is to let my daughter transfer money to my non-US citizen spouse up to the yearly gift exclusion limits to avoid any US tax consequences.

Get you wife an ITIN tax number in the US.  Any cash in your accounts with Fidelity has already been taxed.  Only your stock holding need withholding taken out when liquidated, and then she can file a tax return to claw back withholding over the 15% capital gains that you need to pay on long-term investments.  

Have a Thai bank manager explain to to her.  

On 11/11/2025 at 9:34 PM, JohnnyBD said:

Just asking. Did you look into the US tax consequences of a JTROS? I was considering naming my wife as a beneficiary on my Fidelity brokerage & Chase bank accounts until I read some of the rules (see below). Also, I read if I put her in my WILL which had to go through probate, there would be a 40% tax on any monies above $60k. So, my plan is to let my daughter transfer money to my non-US citizen spouse up to the yearly gift exclusion limits to avoid any US tax consequences.

 

Holding property in joint tenancy with a non-citizen spouse is generally not recommended due to significant U.S. estate tax complications, as the surviving spouse may face a full estate tax liability on the entire property's value instead of a 50% split.

 

What happens when the U.S. citizen spouse passes away naming the non-U.S. citizen spouse as beneficiary? The answer is, the non-U.S. citizen spouse can inherit property in the manner as a citizen. However, under federal estate tax rules, a surviving spouse who is not a U.S. citizen must pay taxes on the inherited amount. The unlimited marital deduction rule does not apply! The federal government does not want someone who isn’t a citizen to inherit assets and pay no estate tax for fear that those assets would leave the country untaxed.

 

Suggest contacting a US estate tax lawyer.  For 2025, the federal estate tax exemption is $13.99 million per individual, so a US citizen can leave up to $13.99m to anyone, spouse or otherwise.   A US citizen can also leave an unlimited amount to a non-US spouse above this amount if a QDOT is established above the $13.99m.  The $60k deduction is for non-US citizens with US assets, not the other way around. 

 

"Why do some places prosper and thrive, while others just suck?" - P.J. O'Rourke

1 hour ago, udontomi said:

A Thai will doesn't include foreign assets, does it?

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Not if you don't want it to. Just make sure it says up front that this Will "covers only my Thai assets." 

 

You should have a Thai Will for Thai assets and a US will for US assets, and each Will mentions the other.

46 minutes ago, Misty said:

 

Suggest contacting a US estate tax lawyer.  For 2025, the federal estate tax exemption is $13.99 million per individual, so a US citizen can leave up to $13.99m to anyone, spouse or otherwise.   A US citizen can also leave an unlimited amount to a non-US spouse above this amount if a QDOT is established above the $13.99m.  The $60k deduction is for non-US citizens with US assets, not the other way around. 

 

I have already consulted a US estate tax lawyer, and he told me the rules for leaving inheritance to a non-US citizen non-resident spouse are different than for a US citizen spouse. As I stated before I was told that if you leave your non-US citizen non-resident spouse anything over $60,000 in US assets, it will be taxed. And, if you leave your non-US citizen non-residewnt spouse as a beneficiary on one of your US bank accounts, it will also be taxed.

 

What happens when the U.S. citizen spouse passes away naming the non-U.S. citizen spouse as beneficiary? The answer is, the non-U.S. citizen spouse can inherit property in the manner as a citizen. However, under federal estate tax rules, a surviving spouse who is not a U.S. citizen must pay taxes on the inherited amount. The unlimited marital deduction rule does not apply! The federal government does not want someone who isn’t a citizen to inherit assets and pay no estate tax for fear that those assets would leave the country untaxed.

38 minutes ago, Misty said:

 

Suggest contacting a US estate tax lawyer.  For 2025, the federal estate tax exemption is $13.99 million per individual, so a US citizen can leave up to $13.99m to anyone, spouse or otherwise.   A US citizen can also leave an unlimited amount to a non-US spouse above this amount if a QDOT is established above the $13.99m.  The $60k deduction is for non-US citizens with US assets, not the other way around. 

 

Type of Exclusion  Non-U.S. Citizen (Non-Domiciled) Limit (2025) Notes
Annual Gift Tax Exclusion (per recipient) $19,000 This applies to gifts of U.S.-situated tangible property. Gifts of intangible property (like U.S. stocks or bank deposits) are generally not subject to U.S. gift tax for nonresidents.
Gifts to a Non-Citizen Spouse $190,000 (annual exclusion) This higher limit applies to gifts made to a spouse who is not a U.S. citizen.
Lifetime Gift/Estate Tax Exemption $60,000 (estate tax exemption) Unlike U.S. citizens who have a high lifetime exemption ($13.99 million in 2025), non-domiciled non-U.S. citizens have only a $60,000 estate tax exemption for U.S.-situated assets. There is no lifetime gift tax credit available to nonresidents to offset gift tax liability.
6 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

I have already contacted a US estate tax lawyer, and the rules for leaving inheritance to a non-US citizen spouse is different than for a US citizen spouse. As I stated before I was told that if you leave your non-US citizen spouse anything over $60,000 by way of a WILL, it will be taxed at 40%. And, if you leave your non-US citizen spouse as a beneficiary on one of your bank accounts, it will also be taxed.

Indeed, US taxes can be quite complex when inheriting spouse is not US people.

 

https://www.wiggin.com/publication/estate-planning-considerations-for-non-u-s-citizen-spouses/

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

By the way, Thailand has no "pay on death" options that allow assets to escape probate.

Not true.

In the case where there was a Will and the spouse was a co signature to the account(s), the bank immediately releases funds to the spouse on production of the death certificate.

 

Where there is no Will and the spouse is not a co signature to any accounts, then you must petition the family Court for a Court Order.
Depending on Province, it takes approx 30 days.

 

In the case of a Will naming a Thai partner/carer (unmarried), again, you petition the Court for a Court Order.
The difference here is that the Court will issue but hold the order for 30 days to allow others to contest the Will.

 

Personal experience.

6 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Indeed, US taxes can be quite complex when inheriting spouse is not US people.

 

https://www.wiggin.com/publication/estate-planning-considerations-for-non-u-s-citizen-spouses/

I had to 

 

6 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Indeed, US taxes can be quite complex when inheriting spouse is not US people.

 

https://www.wiggin.com/publication/estate-planning-considerations-for-non-u-s-citizen-spouses/

Yes, it makes me sick. I paid taxes on my US income all my life, then when you want to leave what's left in your estate to your non-US citizen non-resident spouse, they tax it again even though you already paid taxes on it. The way I will get around it is leave the money to my daughter and then rely on her to gift it yearly to my Thai wife. I hope that works out, because I won't be around to see it. Or, I could just xfer the money here now and only earn minimal interest.

17 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

I have already consulted a US estate tax lawyer, and he told me the rules for leaving inheritance to a non-US citizen non-resident spouse are different than for a US citizen spouse. As I stated before I was told that if you leave your non-US citizen non-resident spouse anything over $60,000 in US assets, it will be taxed. And, if you leave your non-US citizen non-residewnt spouse as a beneficiary on one of your US bank accounts, it will also be taxed.

 

What happens when the U.S. citizen spouse passes away naming the non-U.S. citizen spouse as beneficiary? The answer is, the non-U.S. citizen spouse can inherit property in the manner as a citizen. However, under federal estate tax rules, a surviving spouse who is not a U.S. citizen must pay taxes on the inherited amount. The unlimited marital deduction rule does not apply! The federal government does not want someone who isn’t a citizen to inherit assets and pay no estate tax for fear that those assets would leave the country untaxed.

 

In that case, the only way that makes sense is if you yourself are not a US citizen.  Is that the case?

 

If not, please could you DM me the details of the lawyer?  

"Why do some places prosper and thrive, while others just suck?" - P.J. O'Rourke

40 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

The way I will get around it is leave the money to my daughter and then rely on her to gift it yearly to my Thai wife. I hope that works out, because I won't be around to see it. Or, I could just xfer the money here now and only earn minimal interest.

Unexpected and unfortunate scenarios may also occur, not ofc wishing it will happen, such as heirs passing first or unfollowing your last wills.

The sure way to avoid taxes or complicated structures is indeed to move the main part of your wealth to Thailand.

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

I had to 

 

Yes, it makes me sick. I paid taxes on my US income all my life, then when you want to leave what's left in your estate to your non-US citizen non-resident spouse, they tax it again even though you already paid taxes on it. The way I will get around it is leave the money to my daughter and then rely on her to gift it yearly to my Thai wife. I hope that works out, because I won't be around to see it. Or, I could just xfer the money here now and only earn minimal interest.

It's worse in the UK.

4 hours ago, connda said:

Get you wife an ITIN tax number in the US.  Any cash in your accounts with Fidelity has already been taxed.  Only your stock holding need withholding taken out when liquidated, and then she can file a tax return to claw back withholding over the 15% capital gains that you need to pay on long-term investments.  

I appreciate the adivce. My wife already has a ITIN. We have been filing M&J US tax returns since 2017. I was told by a US estate tax attorney in Louisiana that anything I leave my non-US citizen non-resident spouse is subject to US estate taxes and must go through probate even if I named her as a beneficiary. See notice from Fidelity. I want to leave my Fidelity IRA, Roth & brokerage accts to my daughters, and leave all the cash i have to my Thai wife. I'm planning to move some cash to a joint bank acct in Thailand so my wife will have something to live on, and keep the rest in the US. Then, my daughter can give my wife the rest each year up to the annual gift exclusion limit.

 

Account Registrations Not Recognized in the State of Louisiana

For the account ending: xxxx

You currently have one or more accounts with a Transfer on Death (TOD), Joint with Right of Survivorship (JTWROS), or Joint Tenant in Entirety (J T E) registration that is not recognized by the state of Louisiana (LA). If you are an LA resident, such accounts will go through probate instead of transferring to the designated beneficiary or to the joint owner upon your death.

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