5 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I'm not mistaking anything, as I know the written word can be different than what God wanted it to be, as they were humans writing it. Believing all is wrong is ludicrous. That any is right shows there's a God. Like I've said many times before, this topic is "Do you believe in anything and why", so I stated my beliefs. You can disagree but aren't going to convince me or other believes otherwise about our belief in God.

You offer no proof of god.

On 6/19/2026 at 10:03 PM, Hummin said:

Do Elon Musk look happy? Read his story, and see his interviews

There is many reasons why people get the short end, and not really a big mystery

92% of billionaires are miserable according to Robbins.

8 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Some of the historical documents removed from the bible suggest Jesus taught mindfulness and that heaven was set out on the earth’s surface just look for it. They also say he said god was inside all of us.

There was no suggestion of JC’s divinity until about 90 years after his death.

I think you’re mistaking the bible for being some kind of divine word of god when in fact it’s been put together by 40ish men and if it was divine it wouldn’t have been revised so many times.

Quoting it is pointless. It’s a circular argument.

Just an addition. Jesus divinity was suggested by himself, Paul in the 50's AD, Peter and James declared Jesus’ divinity in stages. It began 50 days after the resurrection at Pentecost, when Peter preached that Jesus was "Lord" (Acts 2). It fully materialized within the next few years when James (Jesus’ brother) and Peter openly recognized Jesus as the divine Son of God.

Jesus himself , as above, fulfilling hundreds of prophecies, showed him doing what no man could have done. We as logical believers have all we need as proof there is a God. Some will argue until the swallows come back from Capistrano, but they're only fooling themselves.

7 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

I'm not mistaking anything, as I know the written word can be different than what God wanted it to be, as they were humans writing it. Believing all is wrong is ludicrous. That any is right shows there's a God. Like I've said many times before, this topic is "Do you believe in anything and why", so I stated my beliefs. You can disagree but aren't going to convince me or other believes otherwise about our belief in God.

You are correct about the headline of the Topic.

However, it has not been proven that, as you say, "he written word can be different than what God wanted it to be, as they were humans writing it"...

If there IS a God, then there may have been other gods who did some, or most, of the writing.

This is unknown at this time.

7 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

I'm not mistaking anything, as I know the written word can be different than what God wanted it to be, as they were humans writing it. Believing all is wrong is ludicrous. That any is right shows there's a God. Like I've said many times before, this topic is "Do you believe in anything and why", so I stated my beliefs. You can disagree but aren't going to convince me or other believes otherwise about our belief in God.

You are correct about the headline of the Topic.

However, it has not been proven that, as you say, "he written word can be different than what God wanted it to be, as they were humans writing it"...

If there IS a God, then there may have been other gods who did some, or most, of the writing.

This is unknown at this time.

7 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

Just an addition. Jesus divinity was suggested by himself, Paul in the 50's AD, Peter and James declared Jesus’ divinity in stages. It began 50 days after the resurrection at Pentecost, when Peter preached that Jesus was "Lord" (Acts 2). It fully materialized within the next few years when James (Jesus’ brother) and Peter openly recognized Jesus as the divine Son of God.

Jesus himself , as above, fulfilling hundreds of prophecies, showed him doing what no man could have done. We as logical believers have all we need as proof there is a God. Some will argue until the swallows come back from Capistrano, but they're only fooling themselves.

I hope you understand how belief systems are created, and how witnesses are not always reliable. Even with the disciples, how many of them were schooled, could read, or could write polished Greek texts?

Some of the biggest political belief systems of recent centuries were fascism and communism. We already know how facts, meaning, and purpose have been twisted, rewritten, corrected, and twisted again. Still, many people continue to live inside the belief.

Mao still hangs on the wall among old farmers in China from what I saw when I visited, and he is still cultivated by many of them. That tells us something about how powerful belief systems can be, even when history has already shown the wider picture.

8 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I hope you understand how belief systems are created, and how witnesses are not always reliable. Even with the disciples, how many of them were schooled, could read, or could write polished Greek texts?

Some of the biggest political belief systems of recent centuries were fascism and communism. We already know how facts, meaning, and purpose have been twisted, rewritten, corrected, and twisted again. Still, many people continue to live inside the belief.

Mao still hangs on the wall among old farmers in China from what I saw when I visited, and he is still cultivated by many of them. That tells us something about how powerful belief systems can be, even when history has already shown the wider picture.

Yes, some are corrupted but I see these writings as God related, and those who wrote them had to know how to write or God wouldn't choose them for something so important. This is God's word, and the most important writings we've ever had.

It's easy to see by definition what fascism and communism mean.

Many people do follow other men they believed in, from Mao, to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Putin, Kim and Trump. Jesus is quite different than those narcissists. Can't put your trust in most people, as many are selfish and power oriented. Someone who promoted love and peace is different, with no other goals in mind.

4 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Yes, some are corrupted but I see these writings as God related, and those who wrote them had to know how to write or God wouldn't choose them for something so important. This is God's word, and the most important writings we've ever had.

It's easy to see by definition what fascism and communism mean.

Many people do follow other men they believed in, from Mao, to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Putin, Kim and Trump. Jesus is quite different than those narcissists. Can't put your trust in most people, as many are selfish and power oriented. Someone who promoted love and peace is different, with no other goals in mind.

God often acts like a psychopath and a narcissist in the Old Testament. Jealous, revengeful, demanding worship, punishing people hard, and wiping out whole groups when they disobey. Jesus had anger too, but he is almost the opposite image in many ways. Mercy, forgiveness, helping the weak, and challenging the powerful.

That contrast is hard to ignore, yet Christians still claim he is in his Father’s image. If they cannot separate Jesus from the Old Testament and the Torah, then they are cultivating something else than the savior they claim him to be.

5 minutes ago, Hummin said:

God often acts like a psychopath and a narcissist in the Old Testament. Jealous, revengeful, demanding worship, punishing people hard, and wiping out whole groups when they disobey. Jesus had anger too, but he is almost the opposite image in many ways. Mercy, forgiveness, helping the weak, and challenging the powerful.

That contrast is hard to ignore, yet Christians still claim he is in his Father’s image. If they cannot separate Jesus from the Old Testament and the Torah, then they are cultivating something else than the savior they claim him to be.

I wouldn't say a psychopath but someone who did things to rid the world from evil. After all, he is in charge so we should follow his well thought out commandments. Humans that don't obviously hurt themselves and others.

I actually do look at God and Jesus somewhat differently also. I question why there is so much evil and bad things on the earth, that he could show more mercy, especially to those who believe in him, and punish those who don't, but this is his way and his reasons are above our thinking. Jesus I've always seen as loving and caring. The world does have a lot of nice things, which shows one side, but we could do without a lot of the bad. Some people get away with mass destruction but are surely going to pay later.

The meek shall inherit the earth to me means those who believe will have that paradise, a place like earth without all the crapola.

5 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I wouldn't say a psychopath but someone who did things to rid the world from evil. After all, he is in charge so we should follow his well thought out commandments. Humans that don't obviously hurt themselves and others.

I actually do look at God and Jesus somewhat differently also. I question why there is so much evil and bad things on the earth, that he could show more mercy, especially to those who believe in him, and punish those who don't, but this is his way and his reasons are above our thinking. Jesus I've always seen as loving and caring. The world does have a lot of nice things, which shows one side, but we could do without a lot of the bad. Some people get away with mass destruction but are surely going to pay later.

The meek shall inherit the earth to me means those who believe will have that paradise, a place like earth without all the crapola.

Your question is easily answered by looking at nature and how nature works. Every species develops traits and behaviour through inheritance, time, environment, and survival.

When I look at nature, I do not see a world designed around fairness. I see a world built around survival. That is why I have always struggled with the idea that everything happens according to a higher plan or for a greater good.

For me, nature explains far more about why things are the way they are than religion does.

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Your question is easily answered by looking at nature and how nature works. Every species develops traits and behaviour through inheritance, time, environment, and survival.

When I look at nature, I do not see a world designed around fairness. I see a world built around survival. That is why I have always struggled with the idea that everything happens according to a higher plan or for a greater good.

For me, nature explains far more about why things are the way they are than religion does.

But as humans we are supposed to act by thinking and not instinct to kill to survive. Humans against humans is a world out of balance. God made predators and prey that interact daily. It's cruel yes, but we eat fish and animals so the only other alternative would have been a world of vegans, including all animals as vegans, which will never happen as steak tastes too good.

3 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

But as humans we are supposed to act by thinking and not instinct to kill to survive. Humans against humans is a world out of balance. God made predators and prey that interact daily. It's cruel yes, but we eat fish and animals so the only other alternative would have been a world of vegans, including all animals as vegans, which will never happen as steak tastes too good.

Take killer whales. Do they kill just to kill? They can play with their prey, but that is also training, instinct, skill, timing, and precision. They are highly intelligent animals with strategy, planning, and the ability to change behaviour when needed. Yet humans are not on their menu. Even sharks rarely attack humans unless it is a case of mistaken identity or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

That is why I do not understand why people often separate humans from the rest of nature. Most animals operate within fairly predictable patterns that fit their environment and survival. Humans, on the other hand, can be far more unpredictable and destructive than many animals.

You say humans are supposed to think rather than act on instinct. I agree. That is exactly why human violence is harder for me to understand than animal behaviour. Even human sport started partly as training for combat, competition, discipline, and sharpening skills.

11 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Take killer whales. Do they kill just to kill? They can play with their prey, but that is also training, instinct, skill, timing, and precision. They are highly intelligent animals with strategy, planning, and the ability to change behaviour when needed. Yet humans are not on their menu. Even sharks rarely attack humans unless it is a case of mistaken identity or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

That is why I do not understand why people often separate humans from the rest of nature. Most animals operate within fairly predictable patterns that fit their environment and survival. Humans, on the other hand, can be far more unpredictable and destructive than many animals.

You say humans are supposed to think rather than act on instinct. I agree. That is exactly why human violence is harder for me to understand than animal behaviour. Even human sport started partly as training for combat, competition, discipline, and sharpening skills.

We're supposed to the the highest form of life on earth, so should act that way. We've proven that free will lets some do whatever they please, much to the detriment of others. Killer whales and all other predators usually kill to eat, but some make a game of killing, like the cat family. It is the predatory instinct and when a human is killed, it's still looked at as food, even though a few have killed which appeared to be for sport, like the Tsavo maneaters, although they saw humans as easy prey once they got started.

7 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

We're supposed to the the highest form of life on earth, so should act that way. We've proven that free will lets some do whatever they please, much to the detriment of others. Killer whales and all other predators usually kill to eat, but some make a game of killing, like the cat family. It is the predatory instinct and when a human is killed, it's still looked at as food, even though a few have killed which appeared to be for sport, like the Tsavo maneaters, although they saw humans as easy prey once they got started.

Who gave us higher reasoning?

You believe because you want to believe there is a higher controlling force. Maybe there is, I am open to that. But for me, a constructed reality claimed as truth is still a constructed reality people choose to believe in.

I am open to anything as long as there is proof. What I see proof in is behaviour, history, and what happens within my reality. That is where nature and the laws of nature come alive for me.

59 minutes ago, Hummin said:

God often acts like a psychopath and a narcissist in the Old Testament. Jealous, revengeful, demanding worship, punishing people hard, and wiping out whole groups when they disobey. Jesus had anger too, but he is almost the opposite image in many ways. Mercy, forgiveness, helping the weak, and challenging the powerful.

That contrast is hard to ignore, yet Christians still claim he is in his Father’s image. If they cannot separate Jesus from the Old Testament and the Torah, then they are cultivating something else than the savior they claim him to be.

I'm not even exactly sure who "The Gnostics" were exactly.

I guess you could say they were a group of crackpots.

This is their belief system, summarized by AI.

7 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Who gave us higher reasoning?

You believe because you want to believe there is a higher controlling force. Maybe there is, I am open to that. But for me, a constructed reality claimed as truth is still a constructed reality people choose to believe in.

I am open to anything as long as there is proof. What I see proof in is behaviour, history, and what happens within my reality. That is where nature and the laws of nature come alive for me.

He wants us to believe from faith, which is the highest honor.

11 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

He wants us to believe from faith, which is the highest honor.

For who?

18 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

I'm not even exactly sure who "The Gnostics" were exactly.

I guess you could say they were a group of crackpots.

This is their belief system, summarized by AI.

I believe Jesus was influenced by the world around him. Ideas travel, philosophers influence each other, and Buddhism had already spread far beyond India long before Christianity.

Christianity is not that different from Buddhism when you look at compassion, humility, forgiveness, suffering, self discipline, and looking within. Of course it was shaped by the time and place Jesus lived in, but I do not believe these ideas appeared from nowhere.

At the same time, completely separating yourself from the religion and culture you were born into would have been suicidal in that time. I do not believe Jesus was suicidal. I believe he was a survivor, but also a man with a character that would not retreat when questioned. That is why he was punished.

After his death, someone had to give meaning to it. More likely, the Jesus character we know today is ideas, memories, stories, interpretations, and later theology shaped into one figure.

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

For who?

To him

8 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

Just an addition. Jesus divinity was suggested by himself, Paul in the 50's AD, Peter and James declared Jesus’ divinity in stages. It began 50 days after the resurrection at Pentecost, when Peter preached that Jesus was "Lord" (Acts 2). It fully materialized within the next few years when James (Jesus’ brother) and Peter openly recognized Jesus as the divine Son of God.

Jesus himself , as above, fulfilling hundreds of prophecies, showed him doing what no man could have done. We as logical believers have all we need as proof there is a God. Some will argue until the swallows come back from Capistrano, but they're only fooling themselves.

Jesus divinity was not suggested by himself. It was suggested by those who wrote about him decades later.

It’s fairly obvious they made up stories to achieve their aim of painting him divine.

You can thank Paul (Saul of Tarsus) for that.

Jesus taught that god was within us and the heaven was laid out across the earth for all to see.

The whole idea of JC being divine is a hoax.

Look at some of the principles. He died to save us, say what? What changed exactly, answer: nothing. Today, Atheism is rampant and not least because you can now question what you were programmed with and find the truth and reasons behind it.

If JC was divine, why did he ask god why he had forsaken him? He was clearly not divine on the cross.

The story of the crucifixion doesn’t make sense. A major part of the punishment is that the body must be left on the cross until it rots. There are exactly zero records in Roman history of any times the body was given up and with his alleged following, it’s extremely unlikely the body would have been released.

I think the reason so much was only written decades afterwards was so it couldn’t be questioned by those still alive.

Christianity is a manufactured religion.

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

Yes, some are corrupted but I see these writings as God related, and those who wrote them had to know how to write or God wouldn't choose them for something so important. This is God's word, and the most important writings we've ever had.

It's easy to see by definition what fascism and communism mean.

Many people do follow other men they believed in, from Mao, to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Putin, Kim and Trump. Jesus is quite different than those narcissists. Can't put your trust in most people, as many are selfish and power oriented. Someone who promoted love and peace is different, with no other goals in mind.

The problem with the idea of the writings in the bible being god’s word is that they were written by man. Then amended, rewritten, corrupted, bastardized hundreds probably thousands of times by many more men.

Dont you think god would write it once and perfectly?

17 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

He wants us to believe from faith, which is the highest honor.

Your arguments for Christianity are circular.

Who says he wants us to believe from faith?

And why?

Why would it be an honour?

Why does he need us to believe?

What flaw in him needs this?

You are told to have faith, faith is all you need. You are told this because they can’t answer the important questions.

It boils down to “just have faith and you’ll be saved, don’t and you’ll be damned”.

You also have intelligence and a thirst for knowledge. To take faith over knowledge is complete nonsense. Assuming your god does exist, wouldn’t he want you to research and weigh the evidence?

For me it all boils down to a test of goodness. god would have to be all good, anything which fails a test of goodness has to be discounted.

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Jesus divinity was not suggested by himself. It was suggested by those who wrote about him decades later.

It’s fairly obvious they made up stories to achieve their aim of painting him divine.

You can thank Paul (Saul of Tarsus) for that.

Jesus taught that god was within us and the heaven was laid out across the earth for all to see.

The whole idea of JC being divine is a hoax.

Look at some of the principles. He died to save us, say what? What changed exactly, answer: nothing. Today, Atheism is rampant and not least because you can now question what you were programmed with and find the truth and reasons behind it.

If JC was divine, why did he ask god why he had forsaken him? He was clearly not divine on the cross.

The story of the crucifixion doesn’t make sense. A major part of the punishment is that the body must be left on the cross until it rots. There are exactly zero records in Roman history of any times the body was given up and with his alleged following, it’s extremely unlikely the body would have been released.

I think the reason so much was only written decades afterwards was so it couldn’t be questioned by those still alive.

Christianity is a manufactured religion.

The problem with the idea of the writings in the bible being god’s word is that they were written by man. Then amended, rewritten, corrupted, bastardized hundreds probably thousands of times by many more men.

Dont you think god would write it once and perfectly?

Jesus of Nazareth: According to the New Testament, Jesus alluded to his own divinity using terms like "Son of Man" and by making "I AM" statements, which echoed God’s revelation to Moses in the Old Testament. If you can't prove otherwise, they aren't made up stories. You are the one who's programmed into atheism, listening to other's opinions that made sense to you. Were you around during Roman times, and know the truths that happened back then? Why believe one story and not another? Jesus was taken down quickly because Jewish law required bodies to be buried before sundown to avoid defiling the upcoming Sabbath. Furthermore, an influential follower, Joseph of Arimathea, formally requested permission from Pontius Pilate, who was willing to grant it.

You were a believer before, so these things you should already know. they're easy to look up, and denying some is what atheists do, as they have their own personal reason to deny God, mostly from a loss of some kind.

Again, seeing I've said this many times before. The OP is about, "Do you believe in anything and why". so put down things you believe in, because trying to convince me of things I believe in and already knew decades before isn't getting you anywhere.

8 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

To him

God could give us a weekly update if he wanted to, if he really was the character many claim him to be.

But no. He gave commandments thousands of years ago, through old stories, old languages, old cultures, and people still argue today about what he actually meant.

Do you not see the absurdity of the biblical God?

17 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I believe Jesus was influenced by the world around him. Ideas travel, philosophers influence each other, and Buddhism had already spread far beyond India long before Christianity.

Maybe he went to India ...

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Your arguments for Christianity are circular.

Who says he wants us to believe from faith?

And why?

Why would it be an honour?

Why does he need us to believe?

What flaw in him needs this?

You are told to have faith, faith is all you need. You are told this because they can’t answer the important questions.

It boils down to “just have faith and you’ll be saved, don’t and you’ll be damned”.

You also have intelligence and a thirst for knowledge. To take faith over knowledge is complete nonsense. Assuming your god does exist, wouldn’t he want you to research and weigh the evidence?

For me it all boils down to a test of goodness. god would have to be all good, anything which fails a test of goodness has to be discounted.

faith

1 of 2

noun

ˈfāth 

plural faiths ˈfāths 

sometimes ˈfāt͟hz

Synonyms of faith

1

a

: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty.

When you are raised to see the truth in God, you have the rest of your life to see if it makes sense to you, and it always has. We aren't told to have faith. We just have it. The honor is showing God you believe with little proof.

Looking at the universe and the earth and all it's wonders, and knowing this couldn't have happened by chance from nothing, helps the belief.

Of course I would love to see more evidence but this is all we have.

5 minutes ago, Hummin said:

God could give us a weekly update if he wanted to, if he really was the character many claim him to be.

But no. He gave commandments thousands of years ago, through old stories, old languages, old cultures, and people still argue today about what he actually meant.

Do you not see the absurdity of the biblical God?

No, I see it as the only thing that could have made this universe, and of all the writings people made since Jesus was around. God could do anything people want him to do, but he's already made our earth and all we need to live. All that's left is faith for the forever part, as this is usually only about 85 years or so.

People are people, in denial, argumentative, hateful towards God for whatever reasons and believe no matter what happens and everything in between because we aren't God. Believers only need faith.

5 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Jesus of Nazareth: According to the New Testament, Jesus alluded to his own divinity using terms like "Son of Man" and by making "I AM" statements, which echoed God’s revelation to Moses in the Old Testament. If you can't prove otherwise, they aren't made up stories. You are the one who's programmed into atheism, listening to other's opinions that made sense to you. Were you around during Roman times, and know the truths that happened back then? Why believe one story and not another? Jesus was taken down quickly because Jewish law required bodies to be buried before sundown to avoid defiling the upcoming Sabbath. Furthermore, an influential follower, Joseph of Arimathea, formally requested permission from Pontius Pilate, who was willing to grant it.

You were a believer before, so these things you should already know. they're easy to look up, and denying some is what atheists do, as they have their own personal reason to deny God, mostly from a loss of some kind.

Again, seeing I've said this many times before. The OP is about, "Do you believe in anything and why". so put down things you believe in, because trying to convince me of things I believe in and already knew decades before isn't getting you anywhere.

I believe JC existed and he taught mindfulness.

I don’t believe he ever said he was divine. I believe you’re quoting from a text that is nothing more than a fictional account of his life dressed up with non-existent miracles and sayings he never spoke.

Regarding Jewish Law requiring burial with a few days. It wasn’t Jews who crucified him, it was Romans, their rules. They crucified many Jews, zero records of any not required to mandatory rot on the cross.

Further, all the gospels give different amounts of his resurrection, they differ in details like the number of women, angels, sequence of events, and specific appearances.

With something as unusual as a resurrection, you would think there would be incredulity, rioting, street parties. But no, the bible paints it as everyday occurrence. Clearly it never happened, it was written in as a piece of fiction.

If there was no resurrection, which history suggests, then the whole idea of Christianity collapses.

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I believe JC existed and he taught mindfulness.

I don’t believe he ever said he was divine. I believe you’re quoting from a text that is nothing more than a fictional account of his life dressed up with non-existent miracles and sayings he never spoke.

Regarding Jewish Law requiring burial with a few days. It wasn’t Jews who crucified him, it was Romans, their rules. They crucified many Jews, zero records of any not required to mandatory rot on the cross.

Further, all the gospels give different amounts of his resurrection, they differ in details like the number of women, angels, sequence of events, and specific appearances.

With something as unusual as a resurrection, you would think there would be incredulity, rioting, street parties. But no, the bible paints it as everyday occurrence. Clearly it never happened, it was written in as a piece of fiction.

If there was no resurrection, which history suggests, then the whole idea of Christianity collapses.

And that's what you believe. Millions of others believe as I do. We weren't around, so all we can go by is what's been written. That no one can disprove the resurrection is evident. There will always be people who don't like to hear the truths , and think if there's one thing that's false, everything is. It really doesn't matter what's real or exaggerated, as believers still believe in God, and that's all we need. Some think, why take a chance with your everlasting soul?

15 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Maybe he went to India ...

Most likely not directly, but I think Buddhist ideas travelled with the trade routes. People travelled back then too, so who knows.

People also pondered life’s mysteries back then, just as we do now. That is how ideas move, change, and become part of what brought us to where we are today.

10 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Looking at the universe and the earth and all it's wonders, and knowing this couldn't have happened by chance from nothing, helps the belief.

Of course I would love to see more evidence but this is all we have.

But we do indeed have evidence.

We know the earth started out as a cloud of gas and from gravitational attraction it collapsed into a solid object.

We know that all the material the earth was made from was forged in a star.

We know how stars begun and how they forged all the elements in the universe before winking out.

We know that the first animal was single celled an amoeba, we know that we share an enormous amount of the same DNA.

This is due to common ancestry—all eukaryotes (including amoebas and humans) descend from a shared ancestor that lived over a billion years ago.

We know that all the bible’s accounts of creation are wrong.

We know we were not created in god’s image.

If there was a god, wouldn’t he have skipped the first 13 billion years. Surely he is all powerful, why does he have to go through this entire scientific, not-religious, documented process?

There are in excess of 12,000 gods, why would your god be any more likely than the others?

Edited June 24Jun 24 by JBChiangRai
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