24 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

No, praying to Jesus on a cross isn't praying to a graven image. Anything other than Jesus would be, as it's idol worship. You aren't praying to a piece of wood but in your heart you are praying to Jesus. Remember God knows your heart.

This explains it more........The Core Consensus: Across nearly all Christian beliefs, the creation of an object is only considered a sin of idolatry if the heart of the worshiper treats the object itself as God or prays to the statue/image rather than to Christ.

No one can prove whether prayer works or not. Some things that seemed impossible, lie a person recovering from almost death, could be a miracle from prayer or plain luck, but you don't know.

The people on North Sentinel Island don't know about God, as anyone who's tried to visit there has been killed, besides the few throwing them food. God's their judge, but seeing they haven't been approached by missionaries, I'm sure God would allow them into heaven.

Jews believe in God, thought you would know this. Everyone who has been given the word about God has a choice to make.

It's all for God to judge, as his mind is far above anyone's and seeing he invented humans, is in charge.

A carving of JC on the cross IS a carved (graven) image, PERIOD.

The commandment was there before JC’s time, it’s just Christians like to apply the rules to suit them. The commandment does not specify any exceptions.

I am pleased to hear you agree that believing in JC is not a prerequisite for going to Heaven.

Jews have heard of JC but don’t believe he is the son of god too and you accept they go to Heaven.

Your premise is that you can believe in god but reject JC and still go to heaven.

What you haven’t explained is why god would care? What exactly is the defect in his personality that he needs to be worshipped and believed in?

Why does he give bone cancer to children?

What about my dogs and cat? We share much of the same DNA and originate from the same ancestors?

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

A carving of JC on the cross IS a carved (graven) image, PERIOD.

The commandment was there before JC’s time, it’s just Christians like to apply the rules to suit them. The commandment does not specify any exceptions.

I am pleased to hear you agree that believing in JC is not a prerequisite for going to Heaven.

Jews have heard of JC but don’t believe he is the son of god too and you accept they go to Heaven.

Your premise is that you can believe in god but reject JC and still go to heaven.

What you haven’t explained is why god would care? What exactly is the defect in his personality that he needs to be worshipped and believed in?

Why does he give bone cancer to children?

What about my dogs and cat? We share much of the same DNA and originate from the same ancestors?

That's not for you to decide, and why would you bother, seeing you think he doesn't exist anyway? When we pray to a cross we are praying to Jesus, not a piece of wood. If you see it as a piece of wood, then don't pray to it. You don't need a cross to pray, but they are there as a reminder.

God's in charge, and the rules were applied differently once Jesus came to earth. Again it's God's to judge everything. Jesus is a way to God's heaven by his resurrection from death. Showing us as believers we will go there. God made you and everything else in the universe. That you don't believe in him is your way.

Believers see him as worthy, as we wouldn't be here if not for him, and heaven wouldn't be the end result if he means nothing to you. Why wouldn't our creator be allowed to make rules and judge us?

Diseases are here to teach some how to help others. A child dies they go to heaven, forever. This is a test, a part time experience before that forever. What difference does it make if we live 3 days or a 100 years if forever is waiting anyway?

37 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

That's not for you to decide, and why would you bother, seeing you think he doesn't exist anyway? When we pray to a cross we are praying to Jesus, not a piece of wood. If you see it as a piece of wood, then don't pray to it. You don't need a cross to pray, but they are there as a reminder.

God's in charge, and the rules were applied differently once Jesus came to earth. Again it's God's to judge everything. Jesus is a way to God's heaven by his resurrection from death. Showing us as believers we will go there. God made you and everything else in the universe. That you don't believe in him is your way.

Believers see him as worthy, as we wouldn't be here if not for him, and heaven wouldn't be the end result if he means nothing to you. Why wouldn't our creator be allowed to make rules and judge us?

Diseases are here to teach some how to help others. A child dies they go to heaven, forever. This is a test, a part time experience before that forever. What difference does it make if we live 3 days or a 100 years if forever is waiting anyway?

What a load of nonsense.

The rules change? Total nonsense.

Deliberately giving bone cancer to children? Downright Evil.

I would ask you this. Which is more likely, your god is an evil, capricious, jealous, and vengeful god?

Or he doesn’t exist?

37 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

When we pray to a cross we are praying to Jesus, not a piece of wood. That is the definition of an idol.

Just to remind you of the commandment…

You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath,

Could it be that carved cross with JC on it is meant to be a likeness of him in heaven? Or a likeness historically on the earth beneath?

You truly have a closed mind.

You believe in JC because a man who never met him, wrote half the New Testament and said he was god. That fact was disputed but it suited the king of the time so he commanded the bishops to pass the resolution. There were dissenters, easy solution, they were banished.

You still haven’t said whether my dogs and cat go to heaven?

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

What a load of nonsense.

The rules change? Total nonsense.

Deliberately giving bone cancer to children? Downright Evil.

I would ask you this. Which is more likely, your god is an evil, capricious, jealous, and vengeful god?

Or he doesn’t exist?

Just to remind you of the commandment…

You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath,

Could it be that carved cross with JC on it is meant to be a likeness of him in heaven? Or a likeness historically on the earth beneath?

You truly have a closed mind.

You believe in JC because a man who never met him, wrote half the New Testament and said he was god. That fact was disputed but it suited the king of the time so he commanded the bishops to pass the resolution. There were dissenters, easy solution, they were banished.

You still haven’t said whether my dogs and cat go to heaven?

Nonsense to you, not to millions of believers. God doesn't deliberately give anything to anyone, as there's no proof of this. Diseases , biting and stinging insects, venomous snakes, animals that kill people, and evil humans are all part of an imperfect world, which is a test, to see if we have faith after all the crapola on earth. Then when we die we go to paradise. Why call God evil if you don't believe he exists?

You're again wrong about a graven image, as people aren't praying to a piece of wood but what it represents. I don't need to be reminded of things I knew 60+ years ago. They see a cross, they think of Jesus and his suffering for us. You can pray anywhere, anytime, but people aren't praying to idols when it's a cross, because that's about Jesus. You learned this decades ago, so why bring it up now? A cross is a symbol, just as a statue of Buddha is a symbol, but there it's an idol, a man , and not the son of God.

What I don't understand is why some argue so strongly , trying to prove the non existence of God, when they can just not bother.

I truly have had an open mind all my life. I look at facts and not opinions. My belief in God comes from just that, of something that makes sense to me and those millions of others. No one can explain anything away with science, as science is what God has made. I believe everything we love will go to heaven, including all animals. Why take that away?

Edited June 18Jun 18 by fredwiggy

4 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Nonsense to you, not to millions of believers. God doesn't deliberately give anything to anyone, as there's no proof of this. Diseases , biting and stinging insects, venomous snakes, animals that kill people, and evil humans are all part of an imperfect world, which is a test, to see if we have faith after all the crapola on earth. Then when we die we go to paradise. Why call God evil if you don't believe he exists?

You're again wrong about a graven image, as people aren't praying to a piece of wood but what it represents. I don't need to be reminded of things I knew 60+ years ago. They see a cross, they think of Jesus and his suffering for us. You can pray anywhere, anytime, but people aren't praying to idols when it's a cross, because that's about Jesus. You learned this decades ago, so why bring it up now? A cross is a symbol, just as a statue of Buddha is a symbol, but there it's an idol, a man , and not the son of God.

I truly have had an open mind all my life. I look at facts and not opinions. My belief in God comes from that, of something that makes sense to me and those millions of others. No one can explain anything away with science, as science is what God has made. I believe everything we love will go to heaven, including all animals. Why take that away?

No facts to prove god exists. Just opinions. You really are a confused man.

Some Baseball players don't believe in Pride Night.

If people have religious beliefs, should they be forced to wear these Pride symbols on their uniform?

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

Nonsense to you, not to millions of believers. God doesn't deliberately give anything to anyone, as there's no proof of this. Diseases , biting and stinging insects, venomous snakes, animals that kill people, and evil humans are all part of an imperfect world, which is a test, to see if we have faith after all the crapola on earth. Then when we die we go to paradise. Why call God evil if you don't believe he exists?

You're again wrong about a graven image, as people aren't praying to a piece of wood but what it represents. I don't need to be reminded of things I knew 60+ years ago. They see a cross, they think of Jesus and his suffering for us. You can pray anywhere, anytime, but people aren't praying to idols when it's a cross, because that's about Jesus. You learned this decades ago, so why bring it up now? A cross is a symbol, just as a statue of Buddha is a symbol, but there it's an idol, a man , and not the son of God.

What I don't understand is why some argue so strongly , trying to prove the non existence of God, when they can just not bother.

I truly have had an open mind all my life. I look at facts and not opinions. My belief in God comes from just that, of something that makes sense to me and those millions of others. No one can explain anything away with science, as science is what God has made. I believe everything we love will go to heaven, including all animals. Why take that away?

Idol definition.

A physical image, statue, or representation of a deity or god that is worshipped.

I link religion with gullibility

20 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Idol definition.

A physical image, statue, or representation of a deity or god that is worshipped.

I link religion with gullibility

god meaning fake gods, not The God.

3 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

You still haven’t said whether my dogs and cat go to heaven?

Animals are not subjected to the same principles of free will as humans.

And they do not have an intellectual/spiritual dimension to their being to question God, the afterlife ...

33 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Animals are not subjected to the same principles of free will as humans.

And they do not have an intellectual/spiritual dimension to their being to question God, the afterlife ...

I’m an atheist, but I’m sure all sentient creatures would be treated by any god the same as us.

37 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Animals are not subjected to the same principles of free will as humans.

And they do not have an intellectual/spiritual dimension to their being to question God, the afterlife ...

Animals have free will. They also think and learn things.

57 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

god meaning fake gods, not The God.

Who is the god?

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I’m an atheist, but I’m sure all sentient creatures would be treated by any god the same as us.

No, human beings are subjected to laws of karma and have a lot more freedom to exercise free will, for good or bad.

Animals are pre-programmed with only instincts and limited in what they can do.

A house pet can't run a crypto scam or online dating scam.

10 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

No, human beings are subjected to laws of karma and have a lot more freedom to exercise free will, for good or bad.

Animals are pre-programmed with only instincts and limited in what they can do.

A house pet can't run a crypto scam or online dating scam.

We’re going to have to disagree.

If you’ve read my posts, you’ll know I apply the test of goodness to religion.

Would it be good or bad to deny the soul of animal that loved you unconditionally to enter heaven with you. Clearly, it would be bad.

A true god (and that as sure as hell is not a Christian, Jewish or Islam god) would be good and therefore animals would go to the afterlife.

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

Would it be good or bad to deny the soul of animal that loved you unconditionally to enter heaven with you. Clearly, it would be bad.

I don't believe there is "heaven" or "hell" necessarily. It's more complex and nuanced than that.

Human beings are responsible for their actions, animals are not subjected to this.

I didn't say animals are "denied" anything.

I really don't know, but I don't think animals have the same pathway as humans in The Great Beyond.

29 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

I don't believe there is "heaven" or "hell" necessarily. It's more complex and nuanced than that.

Human beings are responsible for their actions, animals are not subjected to this.

I didn't say animals are "denied" anything.

I really don't know, but I don't think animals have the same pathway as humans in The Great Beyond.

I am certain the gods and religions we have invented on this earth are all, universally BS.

I’m not so sure about other possibilities. There seems to be some evidence of the paranormal, however flimsy.

Animals sometimes know when they have done wrong. Most dog owners would agree, and dog trainers will tell you that they can be naughty and vengeful with something called a “protest”.

I think all creatures with brains are on a sliding scale of sentience, and we’re probably that the top of the scale. It’s highly likely some other extra terrestrial intelligence is higher up than us. All creatures in that scale should expect something similar.

Edited June 18Jun 18 by JBChiangRai

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

I am certain the gods and religions we have invented on this earth are all, universally BS.

I met a woman who lost her legs in a serious car accident.

I don't need the Bible to define hell as "burning flames". The religions have been feeding people nonsense.

To me, a woman in a wheelchair is in hell. Her whole life is ruined. She cannot have a family, she is barely mobile, she cannot travel, she cannot have a partner. We don't need fairy tales about burning flames, but we also need to stop pretending it's not in front of our eyes either.

So you need to ask why this woman is in hell and how did she get there?

And stay away from atheists who believe in "nothing". They got nothing, so they want everybody else to know nothing.

Use your logic and intuition and imagination.

I'm out of this conversation.

18 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

Not at all, as a believer believes this, from AI, but available otherwise........

The Faith Perspective (Divine Origin)
Christians believe the religion is of divine origin. They hold that Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God and that the faith is rooted in his life, death, and resurrection. From this view, the Bible is divinely inspired, meaning God worked through human authors to record His truth.

There is no way of proving it wrong, so this is where we stand.

Except for common sense ?

“Faith means not wanting to know what is true.”

Nietzsche saw faith as a refusal to face truth, especially when truth threatens what people need to believe.

But the real question is simple: are you willing to change your opinion if better proof shows you are wrong?

There are none so blind as those who don’t want to see

11 hours ago, save the frogs said:

No, human beings are subjected to laws of karma and have a lot more freedom to exercise free will, for good or bad.

Animals are pre-programmed with only instincts and limited in what they can do.

A house pet can't run a crypto scam or online dating scam.

Dogs steal food. Wolves kill chickens.

47 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Except for common sense ?

“Faith means not wanting to know what is true.”

Nietzsche saw faith as a refusal to face truth, especially when truth threatens what people need to believe.

But the real question is simple: are you willing to change your opinion if better proof shows you are wrong?

Many people refuse to change their mind. Fred never does. Called being stubborn. After 60 many people are totally set in their ways for life.

12 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

god meaning fake gods, not The God.

Give this a chance.

If God is the creator, or your God, what is wrong with evolution? The Earth needed time before humans could live here in sustainable conditions, so why could that not be part of God’s plan?

Life did not necessarily start only on Earth. Panspermia is the idea that life, or the building blocks of life, can travel through space on comets, asteroids, meteorites, or cosmic dust.

If life is widespread in the universe, then evolution does not have to be against God. It can simply be the process. Life adapts to place, climate, food, danger, and conditions over time. Earth was one place where life found the right conditions to grow.

17 minutes ago, Rockyroad said:

Dogs steal food. Wolves kill chickens.

Dogs kills chickens, snakes to protect their territorie, not for food

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Give this a chance.

If God is the creator, or your God, what is wrong with evolution? The Earth needed time before humans could live here in sustainable conditions, so why could that not be part of God’s plan?

Life did not necessarily start only on Earth. Panspermia is the idea that life, or the building blocks of life, can travel through space on comets, asteroids, meteorites, or cosmic dust.

If life is widespread in the universe, then evolution does not have to be against God. It can simply be the process. Life adapts to place, climate, food, danger, and conditions over time. Earth was one place where life found the right conditions to grow.

How do you define god?

1 minute ago, Rockyroad said:

How do you define god?

A good word for God is creator.

And one day, if we do not go down the drain first, we may create life too. Or we may send life to another habitable planet, not humans, but life with Earth DNA. Over time, that life could adapt, evolve, and become something new.

Would that make us creators?

And if we send our DNA, our memory, and our stories with it, maybe that life will also create images of God one day.

Think about that.

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

Except for common sense ?

“Faith means not wanting to know what is true.”

Nietzsche saw faith as a refusal to face truth, especially when truth threatens what people need to believe.

But the real question is simple: are you willing to change your opinion if better proof shows you are wrong?

It will never be proven wrong, as a creator is the only way the universe could happen. The earth, in a perfect place, with no other proven life forms in our universe, exactly the right distance from the sun, with everything needed for life to happen, the moon causing tidal action, all the wonders of life itself with all species, all in one place. If there are other life forms in the universe, which I thought myself, they might have been here long before us, and not needed a Jesus to show them the way, not having such evil tendencies as humans do. Common sense it seems shows a creator. If they did prove there isn't a God, which won't happen in our lifetimes, then I would have thought differently.

8 minutes ago, Hummin said:

A good word for God is creator.

And one day, if we do not go down the drain first, we may create life too. Or we may send life to another habitable planet, not humans, but life with Earth DNA. Over time, that life could adapt, evolve, and become something new.

Would that make us creators?

And if we send our DNA, our memory, and our stories with it, maybe that life will also create images of God one day.

Think about that.

Earth is 4 bn years old. Humans only been around for 1m years. Why did god wait 4bn years to create Adam and Eve?

Based on this fact alone I doubt god exists.

19 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Give this a chance.

If God is the creator, or your God, what is wrong with evolution? The Earth needed time before humans could live here in sustainable conditions, so why could that not be part of God’s plan?

Life did not necessarily start only on Earth. Panspermia is the idea that life, or the building blocks of life, can travel through space on comets, asteroids, meteorites, or cosmic dust.

If life is widespread in the universe, then evolution does not have to be against God. It can simply be the process. Life adapts to place, climate, food, danger, and conditions over time. Earth was one place where life found the right conditions to grow.

I don't deny evolution, but see it as God made. I think early man included Adam and Eve as the last forms of man, others dying out.

10 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I don't deny evolution, but see it as God made. I think early man included Adam and Eve as the last forms of man, others dying out.

Who made God? Were Adam and Eve black or white?

47 minutes ago, Rockyroad said:

Dogs steal food. Wolves kill chickens.

they are programmed to behave a certain way.

they don't exercise free will like humans.