5 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

why take a chance with your everlasting soul?

Clearly that is wrong.

It doesn’t pass the test of goodness. If it’s not good, it’s not god.

14 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

No, I see it as the only thing that could have made this universe, and of all the writings people made since Jesus was around. God could do anything people want him to do, but he's already made our earth and all we need to live. All that's left is faith for the forever part, as this is usually only about 85 years or so.

People are people, in denial, argumentative, hateful towards God for whatever reasons and believe no matter what happens and everything in between because we aren't God. Believers only need faith.

Remember, according to the Bible, God created us in his own image. If that is true, then all the denial, arguments, tribalism, hatred, jealousy, revenge, compassion, love, creativity, and curiosity we see in humanity must come from somewhere too.

That is one reason I find the discussion interesting. People are usually happy to credit God for the good parts of human nature, but become much less comfortable when the same logic is applied to the rest.

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Remember, according to the Bible, God created us in his own image.

Says who?

I'm beginning to think the Bible has mostly been misinterpreted.

Probably most of it is in some form of "code", not something to be translated directly.

"In his image" could mean having an innate understanding of right and wrong, for instance.

Edited June 24Jun 24 by save the frogs

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

But we do indeed have evidence.

We know the earth started out as a cloud of gas and from gravitational attraction it collapsed into a solid object.

We know that all the material the earth was made from was forged in a star.

We know how starts begun and how they forged all the elements in the universe before winking out.

We know that the first animal was single celled an amoeba, we know that we share an enormous amount of the same DNA.

This is due to common ancestry—all eukaryotes (including amoebas and humans) descend from a shared ancestor that lived over a billion years ago.

We know that all the bible’s accounts of creation are wrong.

We know we were not created in god’s image.

If there was a god, wouldn’t he have skipped the first 13 billion years. Surely he is all powerful, why does he have to go through this entire scientific, not-religious, documented process?

There are in excess of 12,000 gods, why would your god be any more likely than the others?

How the universe started is from God's creation, and not by chance from nothing. That the earth has all life needs in just one place further shows this was a plan and not by chance. Life is a miracle, not an assortment of haphazard species with abnormal lifestyles. What we have heard from a few scientists is their theories, with many believing there is a God.

Sharing some DNA doesn't mean we aren't different. Sharing DNA doesn't contradict distinct species. All life on Earth shares a massive amount of genetic code due to a shared evolutionary ancestor. However, species are classified by reproductive isolation and unique genetic combinations, meaning even minor DNA differences create distinct biological boundaries. The other "we knows" are just opinions with no evidence. It's what you and a few others believe, but the rest of us millions believe otherwise.

There is no evidence of other gods, as they would be fighting our God for followers. Competition would be noticeable and severe.

Lets' stick to this topic.....................Do you believe in Anything? And, why? This got out towards a belief in God because it's what I believe in, so tell us what you believe in, as I already have. You can also read this..........https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/historical-evidence-for-the-resurrection.

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Remember, according to the Bible, God created us in his own image.

Ahhh, that explains why my Mrs has long, grey hair and a beard. I put it down to laziness and a lack of a grooming regime.

I better lay off the insults now as it's a religious thing. Don't want to be taking the elevator down to the 'basement' when my time is up.

11 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Remember, according to the Bible, God created us in his own image. If that is true, then all the denial, arguments, tribalism, hatred, jealousy, revenge, compassion, love, creativity, and curiosity we see in humanity must come from somewhere too.

That is one reason I find the discussion interesting. People are usually happy to credit God for the good parts of human nature, but become much less comfortable when the same logic is applied to the rest.

Remember he gave us free will, as he did his angels, where Satan came from. Rebellion is part of free will, and along with it comes evil, as well as good. Our choice. We aren't robots

Edited June 24Jun 24 by fredwiggy

7 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

How the universe started is from God's creation

Evidence please

2 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Says who?

I'm beginning to think the Bible has mostly been misinterpreted.

Probably most of it is in some form of "code", not something to be translated directly.

The verses and texts were never a Bible in the form we know today, or a complete message from God.

They were family histories, rules, instructions, traditions, poems, philosophy, prophecies, and stories collected over time. Later, more meaning was added and shaped into religion. As much as they are religious texts, they are also political propaganda, giving people identity, purpose, and a reason to stand together. Prophecies can also shape the future when enough people believe in them and start acting as if they must come true.

I would argue that is part of what we are seeing in Israel today, where ancient prophecies are still influencing how some people view land, history, and the future.

And let us be real. Some of those texts also contain commands to wipe out enemies, leave nothing behind, kill women, children, and infants, take captives, and force women into marriage. That is in the text whether people like it or not.

That is one reason many people struggle with the biblical God.

12 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Remember he gave us free will, as he did his angels, where Satan came from. Rebellion is part of free will, and along with it comes evil, as well as good. Our choice. We aren't robots

Satan rebelled against God, got kicked out of Heaven.

And is wreaking havoc on Earth.

It's not logical to believe in anything but it's very human to have beliefs.

Religions, ideologies, nationalistic narratives are all just STORIES.

But it's hard to imagine humanity without any such stories.

13 minutes ago, Keeps said:

Ahhh, that explains why my Mrs has long, grey hair and a beard. I put it down to laziness and a lack of a grooming regime.

I better lay off the insults now as it's a religious thing. Don't want to be taking the elevator down to the 'basement' when my time is up.

I believe we create heaven and hell ourselves on this planet, and we are not going anywhere in an afterlife.

But good luck.

I believe Ben and Jerry's Chunky Monkey ice cream tastes good.

For one of countless examples.

16 minutes ago, Hummin said:

And let us be real. Some of those texts also contain commands to wipe out enemies, leave nothing behind, kill women, children, and infants, take captives, and force women into marriage. That is in the text whether people like it or not.

7 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Satan rebelled against God, got kicked out of Heaven.

And is wreaking havoc on Earth.

You should watch the simple TV series Lucifer on Netflix. It is funny, easy entertainment with good music and a decent detective story.

Beneath the entertainment there is also some hidden gold. A lot of it is really about human nature, lived experience, how we interpret life, and how we relate to religion, guilt, responsibility, forgiveness, and ourselves.

Lucifer Morningstar starts as someone who blames God, his father, for everything. As the series develops, it becomes more about responsibility, identity, guilt, self punishment, and free will. The question slowly changes from “What did God do to me?” to “What am I doing to myself?”

That is why many people enjoy the series more than expected. It looks like a light detective comedy, but underneath it explores human nature, family conflict, religion, love, forgiveness, and the stories we tell ourselves about who we are.

In many ways, Lucifer Morningstar is less a story about the Devil and more a story about a man learning to understand himself.

13 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Who ever made that one, I doubt Buddha said so, and rather say in Hummin style : Question everything, but test it against reality

19 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Some Buddha quotes are fake but I like that one. Common sense isn't that common!

50 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

My philosophy entirely.

37 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Who ever made that one, I doubt Buddha said so, and rather say in Hummin style : Question everything, but test it against reality

And regarding religion, question everything and if it’s not inherently good, discount it.

22 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

My philosophy entirely.

And regarding religion, question everything and if it’s not inherently good, discount it.

That quote makes no sense, as it dismisses all teachers, who all humans learn from. Some aren't very good teachers and many are. Your own reason and common sense might come from no education, so where would that leave you?

If you doubt all teachers, you stop learning. Teachers and reading are the ways everyone learns, besides personal experience, which doesn't encompass all manners of learning.

Take a person who's never gone to school, and only has their own experiences to go by. They'll be homeless or doing labor jobs with low pay. Unless of course they believed in someone who taught them a trade.

Your common sense might have you go down the wrong path, as so many have proven to do.

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

Remember he gave us free will, as he did his angels, where Satan came from. Rebellion is part of free will, and along with it comes evil, as well as good. Our choice. We aren't robots

I have read so, yes. And who knows? How do we know we are not just a simulation?

That is one of the interesting questions as we move into the age of AI. For thousands of years people imagined gods creating worlds, shaping reality, and giving life to their creations. Now we are starting to create our own digital worlds and forms of intelligence.

9 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

That quote makes no sense, as it dismisses all teachers, who all humans learn from. Some aren't very good teachers and many are. Your own reason and common sense might come from no education, so where would that leave you?

If you doubt all teachers, you stop learning. Teachers and reading are the ways everyone learns, besides personal experience, which doesn't encompass all manners of learning.

Take a person who's never gone to school, and only has their own experiences to go by. They'll be homeless or doing labor jobs with low pay. Unless of course they believed in someone who taught them a trade.

Your common sense might have you go down the wrong path, as so many have proven to do.

I think you misinterpreted the graphic.

What it is saying is use your own common sense and if it disagrees with something, trust your common sense.

Although doing so, you do risk the Dunning-Krueger effect.

In the case of religion and god, it makes sense to say god would be all good.

I think you would agree with that Fred.

If he’s not all good then nobody would follow him. But when you are taught something that suggests he is not all good, even evil, vengeful, jealous. Common sense tells you that cannot be true. Because if it were true then god could not be good.

When you figure this out for yourself and people tell you “just have faith” or the reasons for his evil deeds are too complex to understand. It’s time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Were I a believer, I would probably go through the bible with a sharpie and black out anything that suggests god is less than pure good.

25 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think you misinterpreted the graphic.

What it is saying is use your own common sense and if it disagrees with something, trust your common sense.

Although doing so, you do risk the Dunning-Krueger effect.

In the case of religion and god, it makes sense to say god would be all good.

I think you would agree with that Fred.

If he’s not all good then nobody would follow him. But when you are taught something that suggests he is not all good, even evil, vengeful, jealous. Common sense tells you that cannot be true. Because if it were true then god could not be good.

When you figure this out for yourself and people tell you “just have faith” or the reasons for his evil deeds are too complex to understand. It’s time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Were I a believer, I would probably go through the bible with a sharpie and black out anything that suggests god is less than pure good.

How can anyone question God if they've never known any gods or how they're "supposed" to act?

Obviously he has good in him, look at all he's created that's nice, but the free will he gave humans let the humans do whatever they wanted and history has shown us what humans are capable of.

That he did some destroying of evil was a teaching lesson, along with helping out the good.

No one would be alive it it wasn't for God, so who do you think should have his judgement if they commit evil?

He promised us a paradise if we follow him. Those who don't might be in for a bad surprise. None of us know until we pass on to the afterlife. Ask yourself if evil deserves being destroyed, much like the military destroys evil in our time. We might have had that paradise here if Eve didn't eat the apple, but that's another story.

48 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

If you doubt all teachers, you stop learning. Teachers and reading are the ways everyone learns, besides personal experience, which doesn't encompass all manners of learning.

Yes, and the reason there have been so many successful cult leaders in history is because some human beings are very adept at passing off bs as truth.

I think you mentioned "The Rapture" in a previous post.

I don't even think that comes from the Bible, but I would need to double-check.

10 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

How can anyone question God if they've never known any gods or how they're "supposed" to act?

Obviously he has good in him, look at all he's created that's nice, but the free will he gave humans let the humans do whatever they wanted and history has shown us what humans are capable of.

That he did some destroying of evil was a teaching lesson, along with helping out the good.

No one would be alive it it wasn't for God, so who do you think should have his judgement if they commit evil?

He promised us a paradise if we follow him. Those who don't might be in for a bad surprise. None of us know until we pass on to the afterlife. Ask yourself if evil deserves being destroyed, much like the military destroys evil in our time. We might have had that paradise here if Eve didn't eat the apple, but that's another story.

You’re making an enormous amount of unsubstantiated statements in there.

Your point about how gods are supposed to act. Aren’t they supposed to be all good? Isn’t that how they are supposed to act? We don’t need to know any personally, all good; that’s what you were taught as a child.

Destroying evil being a teaching lesson. If he’s is all powerful, he could destroy only evil. But he chose to destroy innocents too. QED god is not all good, or the more realistic deduction is that those statements are fiction or even more probable god does not exist. That would fit more with the random events we see day to day, children getting bone cancer etc

No one would be alive if not for god. Totally circular reference. god does not exist and yet we are all alive, some of us are highly suggestible and gullible Fred.

Promise of paradise if we believe, Eve eating an apple? Science has proven there was no Eve and you need to read your bible, it was not an apple. He hasn’t promise md anything because he’s a figment of your imagination.

Edited June 24Jun 24 by JBChiangRai
Clarificayshuns

35 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

You’re making an enormous amount of unsubstantiated statements in there.

Your point about how gods are supposed to act. Aren’t they supposed to be all good? Isn’t that how they are supposed to act? We don’t need to know any personally, all good; that’s what you were taught as a child.

Destroying evil being a teaching lesson. If he’s is all powerful, he could destroy only evil. But he chose to destroy innocents too. QED god is not all good, or the more realistic deduction is that those statements are fiction or even more probable god does not exist. That would fit more with the random events we see day to day, children getting bone cancer etc

No one would be alive if not for god. Totally circular reference. god does not exist and yet we are all alive, some of us are highly suggestible and gullible Fred.

Promise of paradise if we believe, Eve eating an apple? Science has proven there was no Eve and you need to read your bible, it was not an apple. Haven’t promise anything because he’s a figment of your imagination.

Everything you've said is unsubstantiated.

Yes, some actually believe a universe and everything in it could happen all by itself. Science has not proven it has, even though the gullible will believe in some they say.

Remember, you don't believe in God, so why bother talking about him? You are never going to convince anyone of your side, as it has no proof otherwise either, even though you believe it does.

It amazes me how some argue so strongly when all they have to do is not. You should re-read what I wrote earlier, as it all makes sense.

When you or anyone can prove God doesn't exist, we might listen, but again, no one will that believes, as it'll never happen.

Last time. Topic is about what do you believe in and why. I've made my statement. You haven't yet.

36 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Everything you've said is unsubstantiated.

Yes, some actually believe a universe and everything in it could happen all by itself. Science has not proven it has, even though the gullible will believe in some they say.

Remember, you don't believe in God, so why bother talking about him? You are never going to convince anyone of your side, as it has no proof otherwise either, even though you believe it does.

It amazes me how some argue so strongly when all they have to do is not. You should re-read what I wrote earlier, as it all makes sense.

When you or anyone can prove God doesn't exist, we might listen, but again, no one will that believes, as it'll never happen.

Last time. Topic is about what do you believe in and why. I've made my statement. You haven't yet.

What is unsubstantiated?

I don’t need to prove a negative, you need to prove he exists.

Science has proven the biblical creation story is a load of tosh.

Science has proven the existence of Eve is a load of tosh. Even the story doesn’t hold water, if god created them, how come their child Cain went to another city and married? You know all this but you don’t question it and it’s clearly nonsense.

You were taught as a child god was in the sky and heaven was above that. Science has proven that’s a load of tosh.

The bible says the earth is about 5,000 years old, science has proven that’s a load of tosh.

Science has proven how the universe was created, what has not been understood is how the big bang occurs.

There is always a beginning, what was god’s beginning? How was he created? Who by?

You have a closed mind, you’re not asking the important questions.

Fred, I assume you escaped the belief in Santa Claus, I’m surprised you can hang on to this supernatural nonsense with no proof.

Have ALIENS come up in this thread yet?

This crackpot got kicked out of the Vatican for his radical views.

After spending years working directly with the original Masoretic Hebrew scriptures, Biglino began publicly arguing that many traditional theological interpretations were not supported by the literal text itself. His research led him to propose a highly controversial thesis: that the Bible may not describe interactions with a singular, all-powerful spiritual God, but rather encounters between humanity and a group of physical beings referred to as the Elohim. These ideas sparked intense debate and transformed Biglino into one of the most discussed and controversial figures in modern biblical research.

Everything is random and free will is just wishful thinking. Some are monsters and some are saints, while the rest fall somewhere in-between. Realising this allows you to make the best next move :) I'm probably wrong but that is what I believe.... The perpetual get out of jail card :)

1 hour ago, save the frogs said:

Have ALIENS come up in this thread yet?

This crackpot got kicked out of the Vatican for his radical views.

After spending years working directly with the original Masoretic Hebrew scriptures, Biglino began publicly arguing that many traditional theological interpretations were not supported by the literal text itself. His research led him to propose a highly controversial thesis: that the Bible may not describe interactions with a singular, all-powerful spiritual God, but rather encounters between humanity and a group of physical beings referred to as the Elohim. These ideas sparked intense debate and transformed Biglino into one of the most discussed and controversial figures in modern biblical research.

The bible does actually discuss some off this, and much more in books from the apocrypha.

There are aliens, watchers, giants, fallen angels, Nephilim.

I believe it’s possible we are not the first technologically advanced beings on this planet. This is a feeling, the only data I have is things like the finding of underground structures beneath the Giza pyramids, yet to be peer reviewed.

I’m no believer in JC as being divine or resurrected, but I think those biblical stories are far more likely to have been alien encounters and for reference, I think even that is unlikely.

I am sure of one thing, there is no god. There is far too much unfair suffering in this world for there to be any kind of benign deity.

4 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

Everything you've said is unsubstantiated.

Yes, some actually believe a universe and everything in it could happen all by itself. Science has not proven it has, even though the gullible will believe in some they say.

Remember, you don't believe in God, so why bother talking about him? You are never going to convince anyone of your side, as it has no proof otherwise either, even though you believe it does.

It amazes me how some argue so strongly when all they have to do is not. You should re-read what I wrote earlier, as it all makes sense.

When you or anyone can prove God doesn't exist, we might listen, but again, no one will that believes, as it'll never happen.

Last time. Topic is about what do you believe in and why. I've made my statement. You haven't yet.

You have not defined god in a way for a test. Where does he live?

4 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

Everything you've said is unsubstantiated.

Yes, some actually believe a universe and everything in it could happen all by itself. Science has not proven it has, even though the gullible will believe in some they say.

Remember, you don't believe in God, so why bother talking about him? You are never going to convince anyone of your side, as it has no proof otherwise either, even though you believe it does.

It amazes me how some argue so strongly when all they have to do is not. You should re-read what I wrote earlier, as it all makes sense.

When you or anyone can prove God doesn't exist, we might listen, but again, no one will that believes, as it'll never happen.

Last time. Topic is about what do you believe in and why. I've made my statement. You haven't yet.

There is one thing that is essentially wrong with your statement. Scientists do not dismiss a God or a creator. They dismiss the Bible as the answer to the creation of the universe. Some scientists are religious, but that is faith and belief, not science.