15 minutes ago, Rockyroad said:

Earth is 4 bn years old. Humans only been around for 1m years. Why did god wait 4bn years to create Adam and Eve?

Based on this fact alone I doubt god exists.

Im not there, I see bible as a mans work, and not god. The bible texts is a family book and a political tool

Edited June 19Jun 19 by Hummin

5 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

they are programmed to behave a certain way.

they don't exercise free will like humans.

I disagree, I do think dogs have free will.

They also experience love.

4 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

they are programmed to behave a certain way.

they don't exercise free will like humans.

Humans don't exercise free will either. Humans are programmed in the first 10 years of their life to act a certain way. Wear clothes, eat using utensils. Say please and thank you. Use a toilet and shower. Get a job. Get a car and find a house.

About 95% of your life is based on programmes put into your mind in the first 10 years.

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I disagree, I do think dogs have free will.

They also experience love.

Yes they exercise free will way more than humans. Humans are far more structured. Dogs do whatever they like.

12 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

they are programmed to behave a certain way.

they don't exercise free will like humans.

Do you feel you have free will ? And if so, at what level ?

Just read this one :

“A lot of people say we have free will.

But I know we don’t.

Because I didn’t program me.

My genetics programmed me.

My parents programmed me.

My religion programmed me.

My schooling programmed me.

My government programmed me.

My peers programmed me.

I was totally brainwashed, like everybody else into believing a heap of stuff that wasn’t true.

And because I believed it

all of these things became my default patterns

which I then operated out of until I was 19 years old.

At 19, I started undoing them all because it became very clear that a lot of my default patterns

the programs that had been put into me externally

were detrimental to myself and others.

But of course, I didn’t come up with that idea.

I was programmed to come up with that idea, because some intervention occurred.

—

Everything I’m saying now has been programmed into me externally.

People think I might have choices, but truthfully, I run to my default patterns - like everybody else does.

People don’t examine themselves.

They love to get arrogant and think, “I have free will.”

Well, if you programmed yourself, then the decisions you make would be yours.

But they’re not.

They’re what has been put into you by genetics and causally by your parents and society in general.

And you will run true to whatever default patterns have been put in you.

It’s just the way it is.“

Credit Vishrant

As a race and belief in the current Judo/Islamic/Christian god, we started out with the earth was created in 7 days, then Adam and Eve.

People believed that, they were the first humans. Then science proved that was incorrect.

The earth was flat with a barrier above that called the firmament which held back waters that were released for Noah’s flood. Science has proved that is incorrect.

Above that is heaven, science has proved that incorrect.

The earth is citca 5,000 years old. Science has proved that incorrect.

There are 4 gospels, experts have confirmed 2 maybe 3 of them were written from the same source document. They all describe JC resurrection and meeting thereafter completely differently. The gospels say JC said different things on the cross.

We now know half the books in the new testament were written by one man with poor morals. He was the one who suggested JC was divine.

JC preached that god is within us.

The bible says the Messiah will return within the disciples lifetime, we are still waiting 2,000 years later.

God says slavery is ok.

I could go on and on.

There is no proof of god, everything people point to as evidence is either flimsy or has been scientifically or historically disproven.

It’s also clear from the bible that the emotions god displays are negative ones.

The only reason Religions survive is because we (criminally in my mind) teach them deliberate falsehoods as children. We even know many of the things we teach them are lies, yet we do it.

Edited June 19Jun 19 by JBChiangRai
Spelning

14 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I disagree, I do think dogs have free will.

They also experience love.

Interesting lecture by Alan Watts.

Edited June 19Jun 19 by save the frogs

8 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Do you feel you have free will ? And if so, at what level ?

Some people grow up in horrible family environments and become criminals.

But you can take 2 twins in the same environment and one of them might choose a different path.

Takes effort to overcome programming, but it can be done.

2 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Interesting lecture by Alan Watts.

Total nonsense.

We domesticated wolves to make them dogs.

Wolves and dogs have the same lifespan

2 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Some people grow up in horrible family environments and become criminals.

But you can take 2 twins in the same environment and one of them might choose a different path.

Takes effort to overcome programming, but it can be done.

Still programming even you have choices,

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The bible says the Messiah will return within the disciples lifetime, we are still waiting 2,000 years later.

I am beginning to think the Bible was written in some form of "cryptic code" and most of it has been misinterpreted.

Like Revelations, the 4 Horsemen, it's not talking about an end of world scenario .... it's all "code" which the church misinterpreted either on purpose or they just can't grasp it.

Edited June 19Jun 19 by save the frogs

2 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Still programming even you have choices,

You're born with karma.

And the karma never ends, for better or for worse.

There's a big difference if you're born in Isaan in a dirt poor village where your father and uncles are all abusive alcoholics. Or if you're born in a filthy rich family in New York City.

But the guy born in New York in a rich family could still go on to become a Bernie Madoff type, ripping people off in the Stock Market for a living. Doesn't mean he will choose a decent path.

And the person born in a dirt poor village in an abusive environment might make their karma better through decent life choices.

I don’t think children should be “programmed “ with anything the programmers can’t prove to be true.

And it should be an offense to teach anything we know to be untrue.

Even adult, mature Christians don’t know the history of how the trinity was created. If they were taught ALL the facts from the getgo they probably would be unbelievers.

The whole idea of the trinity, the holy ghost is to mystify and bamboozle you.

I raised my kids in the UK as atheists and the same with my adopted kids here.

30 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

they are programmed to behave a certain way.

they don't exercise free will like humans.

Exactly. Instinct has them protecting their offspring, killing if necessary, and killing to eat if necessary. Some dogs have partially eaten their own masters, mostly out of starvation after death, but sometimes after bites happen and draw blood, their instinct to eat comes. My dogs here, who are fed not only by me but other neighbors, chase chickens all the time, and might kill when I'm not around, but won't eat them. Local dogs have killed and left a few cats I brought to the house, and it wasn't their personal territory but where they roamed.

11 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

I am beginning to think the Bible was written in some form of "cryptic code" and most of it has been misinterpreted.

Like Revelations, the 4 Horsemen, it's not talking about an end of world scenario .... it's all "code" which the church misinterpreted either on purpose or they just can't grasp it.

That’s the way of believers.

The story is nonsense so let’s try and come up with an explanation that fits with divinity.

People forget the bible is not divine, it’s multiple books that have been altered, sometimes by accident, sometimes deliberately to suit a political need. But all written by men.

The final document was then edited to make it fit a divine narrative by removing books that didn’t fit the story they wanted to tell.

There is now only scant mention of some important actors, eg the Nephilim. Where are the Watchers and the other gods, there were lots.

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I don’t think children should be “programmed “ with anything the programmers can’t prove to be true.

And it should be an offense to teach anything we know to be untrue.

Even adult, mature Christians don’t know the history of how the trinity was created. If they were taught ALL the facts from the getgo they probably would be unbelievers.

The whole idea of the trinity, the holy ghost is to mystify and bamboozle you.

I raised my kids in the UK as atheists and the same with my adopted kids here.

What happens, again, if God is proven real? Jesus is supposed to come back for the rapture. What do you do when you've turned your back and this happens tomorrow?

There is absolutely no harm teaching children to believe, as this also makes them better citizens who will treat others well, and that also takes parents who live the same way. If God doesn't exist, everyone just dies with nothing coming afterwards. If he does, and you've dismissed him, would you think he would take that as a you don't belong in heaven as I gave you a chance? Even if you don't believe for whatever reasons you have, why take that chance with their souls?

6 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Exactly. Instinct has them protecting their offspring, killing if necessary, and killing to eat if necessary. Some dogs have partially eaten their own masters, mostly out of starvation after death, but sometimes after bites happen and draw blood, their instinct to eat comes. My dogs here, who are fed not only by me but other neighbors, chase chickens all the time, and might kill when I'm not around, but won't eat them. Local dogs have killed and left a few cats I brought to the house, and it wasn't their personal territory but where they roamed.

Instinct is not peculiar to animals, we are born with it too.

We are all flesh and blood sharing very, very similar DNA.

We all evolved from the same ancestor. Not theory, it’s a scientifically proven fact.

13 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

You're born with karma.

And the karma never ends, for better or for worse.

There's a big difference if you're born in Isaan in a dirt poor village where your father and uncles are all abusive alcoholics. Or if you're born in a filthy rich family in New York City.

But the guy born in New York in a rich family could still go on to become a Bernie Madoff type, ripping people off in the Stock Market for a living. Doesn't mean he will choose a decent path.

And the person born in a dirt poor village in an abusive environment might make their karma better through decent life choices.

People usually mirror their parents behavior, unless they grow up and see it was wrong. They still might have a hard time getting rid of ingrained thinking, that hurting others gives you control over them, and using them can profit your future. This is how those with NPD start, and usually end. The main reason the world is so out of whack is these types, and many are in power, as seen with certain politicians.

10 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

You're born with karma.

And the karma never ends, for better or for worse.

There's a big difference if you're born in Isaan in a dirt poor village where your father and uncles are all abusive alcoholics. Or if you're born in a filthy rich family in New York City.

But the guy born in New York in a rich family could still go on to become a Bernie Madoff type, ripping people off in the Stock Market for a living. Doesn't mean he will choose a decent path.

And the person born in a dirt poor village in an abusive environment might make their karma better through decent life choices.

We are not born as blank pages. We carry DNA, inherited traits, vulnerabilities, temperament, family patterns, and maybe even what some call genetic memory. Some people carry more from their close heritage than others. Then life adds the rest: environment, treatment, pressure, love, fear, and opportunity.

In the Bible, it says the sins of the fathers can affect the third and fourth generation. That is not so far from science, if we understand it the right way. Not as inherited guilt, but as inherited traits, vulnerability, family patterns, trauma, and old behaviour repeating.

Could use Trump as an example? His father was an old fashioned, hard driven man. His father shaped him, his family shaped him, the world around him shaped him, and even Obama shaped him. That does not explain everything, but it shows how heritage, upbringing, rivalry, humiliation, and ambition can travel through a person.

Some of it is biology. Some of it is learned. Some of it is family sins repeating until someone becomes aware enough to stop them.

Edited June 19Jun 19 by Hummin

2 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Could use Trump as an example?

NO!

Let's not bring Trump into this.

3 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

What happens, again, if God is proven real? Jesus is supposed to come back for the rapture. What do you do when you've turned your back and this happens tomorrow?

There is absolutely no harm teaching children to believe, as this also makes them better citizens who will treat others well, and that also takes parents who live the same way. If God doesn't exist, everyone just dies with nothing coming afterwards. If he does, and you've dismissed him, would you think he would take that as a you don't belong in heaven as I gave you a chance? Even if you don't believe for whatever reasons you have, why take that chance with their souls?

Fred, that’s a circular argument.

First you have to prove he’s real, that is impossible. Better men than you have tried and failed.

What if Odin is the real god, or Thor? Or Vesta? Or that speck of dust on the end of my nose?

You have it the wrong way around on teaching religion makes better citizens. The incidence of crime is actually higher in countries where religion is taught than those who were not.

Teaching children does do harm and you’re the perfect example of that. You believe what you were taught and I suggest if you were taught at age 15 there was an invisible man in the sky looking over you, you would’ve laughed the teacher out of the room.

10 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

What happens, again, if God is proven real? Jesus is supposed to come back for the rapture. What do you do when you've turned your back and this happens tomorrow?

There is absolutely no harm teaching children to believe, as this also makes them better citizens who will treat others well, and that also takes parents who live the same way. If God doesn't exist, everyone just dies with nothing coming afterwards. If he does, and you've dismissed him, would you think he would take that as a you don't belong in heaven as I gave you a chance? Even if you don't believe for whatever reasons you have, why take that chance with their souls?

You create an imaginary reality that does not exist, created by man to control people and comfort those who cannot live without answers to their existence.

You are also using learned traits to shape people around you. And still, you may die tomorrow. What if you were wrong? What if Islam was the only truth? Or Judaism? Or Jehovah’s Witnesses?

What then?

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Instinct is not peculiar to animals, we are born with it too.

We are all flesh and blood sharing very, very similar DNA.

We all evolved from the same ancestor. Not theory, it’s a scientifically proven fact.

I believe God made all life forms similar as the way they function, moving, eating, digesting, breeding, all make perfect sense. Incredible creations. Somewhat the same but very different in how they came to be as individual species. Humans have some instincts like animals but a lot less, as we have a more developed brain and can think for ourselves. Animals need more instincts at birth to survive, while most of our are learned from caregivers who protect us.

6 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

NO!

Let's not bring Trump into this.

Read what I had to say,

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Read what I had to say,

I did read it.

2 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I believe God made all life forms similar as the way they function, moving, eating, digesting, breeding, all make perfect sense. Incredible creations. Somewhat the same but very different in how they came to be as individual species. Humans have some instincts like animals but a lot less, as we have a more developed brain and can think for ourselves. Animals need more instincts at birth to survive, while most of our are learned from caregivers who protect us.

Let’s go back down the evolutionary tree and you tell me which creatures go to heaven.

Here are the last 10 steps in reverse chronological order…

Homo sapiens (us): Emerged in Africa ~300,000–315,000 years ago. Anatomically modern humans with high foreheads, smaller faces, and advanced tool use/culture.

2.  Early Homo sapiens ancestors / late archaic Homo (e.g., related to Homo heidelbergensis or African archaic populations): ~500,000–800,000 years ago. A common ancestor (or closely related group) for modern humans, Neanderthals, and Denisovans. Brain expansion and more advanced tools.

3.  Homo heidelbergensis (or similar): ~700,000–200,000 years ago. Often cited as a key ancestor or close relative; widespread in Africa/Europe. Larger brains, sophisticated tools, possible fire use and hunting.

4.  Homo erectus / Homo ergaster: ~1.9 million–~100,000 years ago (earlier forms). First major hominin to leave Africa; tall, long-legged, controlled fire, made advanced tools (Acheulean). Direct or close ancestor to later Homo species.

5.  Early Homo (e.g., Homo habilis or Homo rudolfensis): ~2.8–1.5 million years ago. First members of genus Homo in Africa. Larger brains than australopithecines, simple stone tools (Oldowan), some meat scavenging/hunting. Transitional from more ape-like ancestors.

6.  Australopithecus (e.g., A. afarensis like “Lucy,” or A. africanus/garhi): ~4–2 million years ago. Bipedal (walked upright), but still small-brained and partly arboreal. Key adaptations for walking on two legs; some may link to early Homo.

7.  Earlier australopithecines or transitional hominins (e.g., A. anamensis or Ardipithecus): ~4.4–6 million years ago. More primitive bipeds or facultative bipeds with ape-like traits (e.g., grasping feet, smaller canines). Ardipithecus ramidus shows woodland habitat and partial bipedalism.

8.  Earliest hominins (e.g., Sahelanthropus tchadensis, Orrorin tugenensis): ~6–7 million years ago. Very early after the human-chimp split. Sahelanthropus (~7 mya) had a small brain but possible bipedal traits (foramen magnum position). Mix of ape and hominin features.

9.  Last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees/bonobos: ~6–8 (or up to 9–7) million years ago. A now-extinct primate population in Africa. Not a modern chimp; likely arboreal with some ground adaptations. Genetic divergence point.

10.  Common ancestor with gorillas (Homininae divergence): ~8–10+ million years ago. Earlier ape-like ancestor shared with gorillas (after orangutan split ~12–14 mya). Miocene apes like possible candidates (e.g., related to Dryopithecus or African forms). More generalized great-ape traits before hominin-specific changes.

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Fred, that’s a circular argument.

First you have to prove he’s real, that is impossible. Better men than you have tried and failed.

What if Odin is the real god, or Thor? Or Vesta? Or that speck of dust on the end of my nose?

You have it the wrong way around on teaching religion makes better citizens. The incidence of crime is actually higher in countries where religion is taught than those who were not.

Teaching children does do harm and you’re the perfect example of that. You believe what you were taught and I suggest if you were taught at age 15 there was an invisible man in the sky looking over you, you would’ve laughed the teacher out of the room.

What's a better man? Someone who lives for science and does it for a living? Many scientists believe there is a God, looking at the "Big Bang" as his actions. Failed, yes, all of them as no one has disproven a God.

We look at the wonders of creation and know there's a God behind it with a plan. Some think everything happened all by chance, believing those "better men".

I didn't say teaching a religion does anything besides having a person ready if there is a God, which believers believe. . I said it's still up to the parents as they are the first role models.

Following God's Commandments surely makes you better citizens after you leave the home. Religions have been used for power and control, but that's not their underlying objective, which is still peace.

You do know people who who are intelligent are less likely to be brainwashed, and not think for themselves as adults right?

How did teaching me about God do me harm? I have always treated people well, including my women and children, with the usual parent mistakes but no abuse or neglect.

After grammar school, I didn't think about Catholicism like it was taught to me but the big picture. You pray to Jesus and God, and not other people, as they aren't going to help you. My girlfriend got me to be born again, as a believer in what's most important. A personal relationship with Jesus and God.

You might think how this world would be if no one believed. Much of the population would be exterminated in a few days, from all the anger uncontrolled by the want to do whatever they wanted, no worries about going to heaven any longer, as it doesn't exist, and people who wanted to kill another, and I'm sure it's a lot more than we already see, would act that out. Believers are sinners, but still want to go to heaven, so there is some fear involved, along with just trying to be a decent person.

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Let’s go back down the evolutionary tree and you tell me which creatures go to heaven.

Here are the last 10 steps in reverse chronological order…

Homo sapiens (us): Emerged in Africa ~300,000–315,000 years ago. Anatomically modern humans with high foreheads, smaller faces, and advanced tool use/culture.

2.  Early Homo sapiens ancestors / late archaic Homo (e.g., related to Homo heidelbergensis or African archaic populations): ~500,000–800,000 years ago. A common ancestor (or closely related group) for modern humans, Neanderthals, and Denisovans. Brain expansion and more advanced tools.

3.  Homo heidelbergensis (or similar): ~700,000–200,000 years ago. Often cited as a key ancestor or close relative; widespread in Africa/Europe. Larger brains, sophisticated tools, possible fire use and hunting.

4.  Homo erectus / Homo ergaster: ~1.9 million–~100,000 years ago (earlier forms). First major hominin to leave Africa; tall, long-legged, controlled fire, made advanced tools (Acheulean). Direct or close ancestor to later Homo species.

5.  Early Homo (e.g., Homo habilis or Homo rudolfensis): ~2.8–1.5 million years ago. First members of genus Homo in Africa. Larger brains than australopithecines, simple stone tools (Oldowan), some meat scavenging/hunting. Transitional from more ape-like ancestors.

6.  Australopithecus (e.g., A. afarensis like “Lucy,” or A. africanus/garhi): ~4–2 million years ago. Bipedal (walked upright), but still small-brained and partly arboreal. Key adaptations for walking on two legs; some may link to early Homo.

7.  Earlier australopithecines or transitional hominins (e.g., A. anamensis or Ardipithecus): ~4.4–6 million years ago. More primitive bipeds or facultative bipeds with ape-like traits (e.g., grasping feet, smaller canines). Ardipithecus ramidus shows woodland habitat and partial bipedalism.

8.  Earliest hominins (e.g., Sahelanthropus tchadensis, Orrorin tugenensis): ~6–7 million years ago. Very early after the human-chimp split. Sahelanthropus (~7 mya) had a small brain but possible bipedal traits (foramen magnum position). Mix of ape and hominin features.

9.  Last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees/bonobos: ~6–8 (or up to 9–7) million years ago. A now-extinct primate population in Africa. Not a modern chimp; likely arboreal with some ground adaptations. Genetic divergence point.

10.  Common ancestor with gorillas (Homininae divergence): ~8–10+ million years ago. Earlier ape-like ancestor shared with gorillas (after orangutan split ~12–14 mya). Miocene apes like possible candidates (e.g., related to Dryopithecus or African forms). More generalized great-ape traits before hominin-specific changes.

You can argue this until blue in the face and I already asked you. Why bother? You aren't going to convince believers to stop believing, so maybe just believe what you want, and let others as they do, without interference.

As far as who or what goes to heaven, I believe believers and animals, along with those who haven't been taught about God. Maybe there is a hell and a Purgatory, where we stay until we understand where we went wrong.

If God love all people, even the most heinous can learn what they did wrong, as it's usually from childhood trauma, and see the light, staying in hell until that happens. Killing intentionally and hurting children comes from evil learned behavior, either from abuse or neglect, or both. Given normal parents, most if not all evil doers would surely have acted differently.

19 minutes ago, Hummin said:

You create an imaginary reality that does not exist, created by man to control people and comfort those who cannot live without answers to their existence.

You are also using learned traits to shape people around you. And still, you may die tomorrow. What if you were wrong? What if Islam was the only truth? Or Judaism? Or Jehovah’s Witnesses?

What then?

19 minutes ago, Hummin said:

It's still about a one God, and that's where belief in him gets you paradise.

6 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Much of the population would be exterminated in a few days, from all the anger uncontrolled by the want to do whatever they wanted, no worries about going to heaven any longer

You’re equating religion with morals.

You don’t need religion to have good morals and in my last post I pointed out the higher incidence of crime amongst the religious.

The hook is there in your religion, you said it yourself, believers and animals go to heaven, unbelievers don’t go to heaven presumably

In your belief system I don’t go to heaven, if you reject JC you don’t go to heaven.

That is heavy.

Edited June 19Jun 19 by JBChiangRai
Spelinf