29 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

No, he was talking to the rich man in that situation, as you can read. You can't assume what I believe in besides what I've said here. Again, why bother, seeing you're an atheist?

You’re right, I’m an atheist because I have researched.

My mind is not closed and believe if there was a god he would be all goodness.

Not killing babies, pregnant women etc, nor would he want to test anyone, but then he doesn’t need to because he’s all knowing.

god has to be all good, you’re god falls a lot short of that.

45 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

You’re right, I’m an atheist because I have researched.

My mind is not closed and believe if there was a god he would be all goodness.

Not killing babies, pregnant women etc, nor would he want to test anyone, but then he doesn’t need to because he’s all knowing.

god has to be all good, you’re god falls a lot short of that.

Who says God is killing anyone besides in Noah's time, the plagues in Egypt because the Pharoah wouldn't let the Jews free, Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's wife, Nadad and Abihu, Onan, Herod and some other evildoers?

Diseases and other humans kill people, along with insects and some animals.

It shows us the world is imperfect, and that if we follow him, we will have that perfection in another life. He has to test humans because he gave us that free will to do what we want.

He showed his power and took out evil to protect us, and left it up to us since then.

Edited June 19Jun 19 by fredwiggy

30 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Who says God is killing anyone besides in Noah's time, the plagues in Egypt because the Pharoah wouldn't let the Jews free, Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's wife, Nadad and Abihu, Onan, Herod and some other evildoers?

Diseases and other humans kill people, along with insects and some animals.

It shows us the world is imperfect, and that if we follow him, we will have that perfection in another life. He has to test humans because he gave us that free will to do what we want.

He showed his power and took out evil to protect us, and left it up to us since then.

Does it matter “when” he killed innocent children and babies?

Isn’t it enough that he did? He killed entire populations, there is no way the children and babies did bad things.

Nonsense that he needs to test us, this is what you were taught, programmed when you were younger. It doesn’t make sense and it doesn’t pass the test of goodness.

He doesn’t need to test us because he already knows, he’s all-knowing right?

19 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Does it matter “when” he killed innocent children and babies?

Isn’t it enough that he did? He killed entire populations, there is no way the children and babies did bad things.

Nonsense that he needs to test us, this is what you were taught, programmed when you were younger. It doesn’t make sense and it doesn’t pass the test of goodness.

He doesn’t need to test us because he already knows, he’s all-knowing right?

Easy to look up what God was responsible for, and why. Again you assume I'm "programmed". Again, seeing you don't believe God exists why bother? Keep with your thinking, and when you pass, you'll see the truth.

7 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Easy to look up what God was responsible for, and why. Again you assume I'm "programmed". Again, seeing you don't believe God exists why bother? Keep with your thinking, and when you pass, you'll see the truth.

You are programmed, the one question you are not asking yourself about the atrocities committed by god or the things that don’t sound right but your teachers have told you he moves in mysterious ways or it’s beyond human comprehension Is …

WHY?

Just ask why?

On the ironic side

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

You are programmed, the one question you are not asking yourself about the atrocities committed by god or the things that don’t sound right but your teachers have told you he moves in mysterious ways or it’s beyond human comprehension Is …

WHY?

Just ask why?

Actually, I think you've been programmed, by other's opinions after you were taught the truth while young. Sadly, this is how it happens, along with those suffering a loss of some kind. Again, why bother? If you think God doesn't exist, why try the impossible, trying to convince believers he doesn't?

Just, as I've mentioned, believe what you want, because believers aren't going to listen to atheists.

Look at what the topic says. I mentioned what I believe in, and so should you.

Edited June 19Jun 19 by fredwiggy

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

god has to be all good, you’re god falls a lot short of that.

But atheism doesn't explain how the world works either.

It doesn't offer any answers.

So let's say someone gets hit by a bus.

You're saying since there is no God, it's just bad luck and a random incident?

But your "Godless Universe" is still a bad place to live, where people are getting hit by buses for no apparent reason.

Just removing God from the equation doesn't really solve anything.

Would you say the Universe is essentially benevolent or hostile?

Somewhere in the middle? 50-50?

Or what ??

Removing God from the equation doesn't mean you can go back to sleep.

You still need to have some sort of theory of why the Universe is the way it is.

At least Christians do try to formulate some kind of theory, even though you may argue it is flawed. But what's worse? A flawed theory or no theory at all?

Edited June 19Jun 19 by save the frogs

6 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

But atheism doesn't explain how the world works either.

It doesn't offer any answers.

So let's say someone gets hit by a bus.

You're saying since there is no God, it's just bad luck and a random incident?

But your "Godless Universe" is still a bad place to live, where people are getting hit by buses for no apparent reason.

Just removing God from the equation doesn't really solve anything.

Would you say the Universe is essentially benevolent or hostile?

Somewhere in the middle? 50-50?

Or what ??

Removing God from the equation doesn't mean you can go back to sleep.

You still need to have some sort of theory of why the Universe is the way it is.

At least Christians do try to formulate some kind of theory, even though you may argue it is flawed. But what's worse? A flawed theory or no theory at all?

Does religion give any reasonable and logical answers, or is it mostly comfort and explanations people choose to believe?

Why must there be a given reason or answer for everything? In my opinion, most of it is old tribal stories, melted together and shaped into something ready for marketing.

Can we not just enjoy the moment without fairy tales, and focus more on healthy theories, facts, and what actually improves life?

There is nothing magical about how the world works. It goes around the sun.

There is an explanation for every event on earth, give me some examples and I’ll happily explain them.

We have an explanation for everything since the big bang. We don’t have an explanation for that.

I’m sure if it was created by a super being, that being would look nothing like the Christian Malevolent, capricious, evil god.

I think a super being may be responsible for the universe’s creation. But I have no idea how or why. But Ami am sure it wasn’t done in 7 days as some religions would have you believe.

The problem I have is with young impressionable minds being programmed in theory dressed as fact and some downright lies.

I think all religious people should question “why” certain events.

To blindly follow something when you are taught the explanation is beyond human comprehension is just downright wrong and a lie.

24 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

We have an explanation for everything since the big bang. We don’t have an explanation for that.

Yes, please give us your explanation why innocent babies die.

33 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Does religion give any reasonable and logical answers, or is it mostly comfort and explanations people choose to believe?

Religions may have flawed theories, but at least they have theories.

They are forcing people to think about things they otherwise wouldn't.

They are the only ones talking about certain issues.

I'm not convinced its ok to go through life and never ponder what happens after death.

The "hell in the bible" version may not be accurate, but is the atheist version of "there's nothing, so let's go back to sleep" better?

4 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Religions may have flawed theories, but at least they have theories.

They are forcing people to think about things they otherwise wouldn't.

They are the only ones talking about certain issues.

I'm not convinced its ok to go through life and never ponder what happens after death.

The "hell in the bible" version may not be accurate, but is the atheist version of "there's nothing, so let's go back to sleep" better?

A flawed theory can still open a serious question, but it does not become better than atheism just because it gives an answer. Sometimes “I do not know” is more honest than filling the unknown with heaven, hell, punishment, or reward.

10 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Sometimes “I do not know” is more honest than filling the unknown with heaven, hell, punishment, or reward.

but "I do not know" is not far off from "I do not care" ... it can be a form of apathy or intellectual laziness.

2 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

but "I do not know" is not far off from "I do not care" ... it can be a form of apathy or intellectual laziness.

Eh, sorry ?

Laziness now, I just wonder who is lazy ?

26 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Yes, please give us your explanation why innocent babies die.

They die from disease, they die from malnourishment, they die from congenital defects and they die from physical injury.

There is nothing magical master plan, it is simply cause and effect.

There is no justification for it, it’s never random, an inquest will usually determine why.

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

There is nothing magical master plan, it is simply cause and effect.

But why do some people get "the short end of the stick?"

Does it infuriate you or at least make you a bit envious that Elon Musk is a trillionaire and you'll never be?

54 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

There is nothing magical about how the world works. It goes around the sun.

There is an explanation for every event on earth, give me some examples and I’ll happily explain them.

We have an explanation for everything since the big bang. We don’t have an explanation for that.

I’m sure if it was created by a super being, that being would look nothing like the Christian Malevolent, capricious, evil god.

I think a super being may be responsible for the universe’s creation. But I have no idea how or why. But Ami am sure it wasn’t done in 7 days as some religions would have you believe.

The problem I have is with young impressionable minds being programmed in theory dressed as fact and some downright lies.

I think all religious people should question “why” certain events.

To blindly follow something when you are taught the explanation is beyond human comprehension is just downright wrong and a lie.

"There is nothing magical about how the world works. It goes around the sun."

You're joking right? Maybe you listen to some who tell of the universe coming from a big bang, but thinking the earth revolving around the sun, which creates weather, time, and seasons, and this isn't simply amazing, is leaving out just how involved it is. Not magical but carefully planned, by God, as it is impossible to have happened exactly the way it should to sustain life.

Yes, there is an explanation for everything that happens, because it was created with that plan in mind, so humans and all species could exist here. Anyone who doesn't think of just the complexity of a human brain and how it works and not be amazed, and thinks it also just happened by chance. is leaving out exactly the fact it was a creation.

Of course a super being created everything. it's the only logical explanation there is. We all question why and how, but a human brain isn't capable of understanding much of it. Faith might be blind, but it's all we have. That the universe was created in 7 days means nothing. Just the fact it was created has no time against it. if it was created, why question how long it took? 7 days to the Lord might be a minute for us, or a month. I'm sure, seeing he's always been around, that he was thinking of how to make a universe for quite awhile.

6 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

But why do some people get "the short end of the stick?"

Does it infuriate you or at least make you a bit envious that Elon Musk is a trillionaire and you'll never be?

Do Elon Musk look happy? Read his story, and see his interviews

There is many reasons why people get the short end, and not really a big mystery

6 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

But why do some people get "the short end of the stick?"

Does it infuriate you or at least make you a bit envious that Elon Musk is a trillionaire and you'll never be?

I'm sure most of us would love that money, although i would spend most of it saving the earth from development. No matter how rich anyone is, they aren't going to live any longer or healthier than a person of average means that can afford healthy food and exercise can. Can't buy love either, but there will be many people who would lie to you proclaiming that love for the cash. Some people are born with wealth and most will never have it. Just getting by is what most of us do, and that's yet another reason to look to the afterlife, as this one's way too short.

40 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

But why do some people get "the short end of the stick?"

Does it infuriate you or at least make you a bit envious that Elon Musk is a trillionaire and you'll never be?

You need to specify examples of people getting the short end of the stick. There is no one reason that fits all.

I have seen many people fit that category because they make poor choices. Often repeatedly.

Yes I do envy Elon his money, but I think it doesn’t make him happy. I am fortunate in that I made a lot of money and retired in my 40’s. It’s never enough, but I’ve bought everything I wanted and the only material things I would like, but will never have, can only be afforded by billionaires. A jet and a yacht. I like to travel but hate the commercial travel experience.

@fredwiggy a super being creating the universe is not the only logical solution.

Ask yourself, where did he come from? There’s always a beginning right? If there isn’t for that super being then it’s logical there isn’t for the universe.

What isn’t logical is that the super being would be malevolent, vengeful and evil killing innocent children and babies just to get to their parents. That’s not logical, it’s just evil.

Fred, read the gospel of Thomas, where does Jesus say Heaven is?

Edited June 19Jun 19 by JBChiangRai

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

What isn’t logical is that the super being would be malevolent, vengeful and evil killing innocent children and babies just to get to their parents. That’s not logical, it’s just evil.

But you have danced around my question.

Even if you remove God from the equation, wouldn't the Universe be a malevolent and evil place just based on the fact that sometimes innocent babies get killed?

An evil God makes atheists nervous, but an evil Universe without God doesn't, apparently.

Edited June 19Jun 19 by save the frogs

1 minute ago, save the frogs said:

But you have danced around my question.

Even if you remove God from the equation, wouldn't the Universe be a malevolent and evil place just based on the fact that sometimes innocent babies get killed?

Sorry, I thought I had.

For the universe to be evil and/or malevolent, it would have to be making those choices. I don’t believe it or any super being is doing that.

For it to be different, ie no babies ever killed etc, there would have to be a benevolent god such as Fred believes in. Clearly, no evidence of that.

Religion For Breakfast Youtube channel has some interesting content:

On 6/17/2026 at 4:11 PM, fredwiggy said:

I've never tried to force anything on anyone. It's God's to judge.

Bet you're happy that Andy Burnham is in your camp, swearing in Parliament, and to the World, that he is a believer.

Wonder what a Muslim MP would swear to.

Edited June 23Jun 23 by wil iam not

10 minutes ago, wil iam not said:

Bet you're happy that Andy Burnham is in your camp, swearing in Parliament, and to the World, that he is a believer.

Wonder what a Muslim MP would swear to.

All Muslims believe in God, so likely the same. Tawhid.

Edited June 23Jun 23 by fredwiggy

On 6/19/2026 at 7:45 PM, JBChiangRai said:

You need to specify examples of people getting the short end of the stick. There is no one reason that fits all.

I have seen many people fit that category because they make poor choices. Often repeatedly.

Yes I do envy Elon his money, but I think it doesn’t make him happy. I am fortunate in that I made a lot of money and retired in my 40’s. It’s never enough, but I’ve bought everything I wanted and the only material things I would like, but will never have, can only be afforded by billionaires. A jet and a yacht. I like to travel but hate the commercial travel experience.

@fredwiggy a super being creating the universe is not the only logical solution.

Ask yourself, where did he come from? There’s always a beginning right? If there isn’t for that super being then it’s logical there isn’t for the universe.

What isn’t logical is that the super being would be malevolent, vengeful and evil killing innocent children and babies just to get to their parents. That’s not logical, it’s just evil.

Fred, read the gospel of Thomas, where does Jesus say Heaven is?

In his father's house, a spiritual realm. "Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, they will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

John 14:2-3

New International Version

² My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? ³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Remember this about Jesus,

People say Jesus wasn’t real.

People say He was just a myth.

People say Christianity was invented by men.

But here’s the problem.

You still have to explain one thing:

How did one man fulfill hundreds of prophecies written centuries before He was born?

Not ten years before.

Not fifty years before.

Some were written over 1,000 years before His birth.

And He fulfilled them.

Not vaguely.

Specifically.

Micah said the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.

Isaiah said He would be born of a virgin.

Zechariah said He would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey.

David described His hands and feet being pierced centuries before crucifixion even existed.

Isaiah said He would be silent before His accusers.

Zechariah said He would be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver.

Psalm 22 said soldiers would cast lots for His garments.

Isaiah said He would be buried with the rich.

And that’s just a handful.

The Old Testament contains over 300 Messianic prophecies.

Think about that.

Over 300.

And Jesus fulfilled them.

Now skeptics say:

“That’s coincidence.”

Really?

Let’s talk probability.

The chance of just eight or nine specific prophecies being fulfilled by one person by random chance has been estimated at approximately one in 10⁷⁶.

That’s a number so massive your mind can’t comprehend it.

To put that into perspective, cover the entire state of Texas two feet deep with silver dollars.

Mark one coin.

Mix them all together.

Blindfold a man.

Send him anywhere into Texas.

And let him pick one coin.

First try.

That’s the probability of only eight prophecies being fulfilled by chance.

Now imagine 48 prophecies.

The probability becomes one in 10¹⁵⁷.

That’s not merely unlikely.

That’s beyond astronomical.

And Jesus fulfilled far more than that.

Now someone says:

“He intentionally fulfilled them.”

Really?

Did He choose where He was born?

Did He arrange His lineage?

Did He control the soldiers gambling for His clothes?

Did He orchestrate His betrayal price?

Did He determine the manner of His death?

Did He control being pierced?

Did He arrange His burial in a rich man’s tomb?

No.

These events were outside human control.

And here’s the deeper issue.

People don’t reject Jesus because of a lack of evidence.

They reject Him because of what the evidence demands.

Because if Jesus fulfilled prophecy, then He isn’t merely a teacher.

He isn’t merely a prophet.

He isn’t merely a historical figure.

He is who He claimed to be.

The Messiah.

The Son of God.

The King of kings.

And that’s what many people don’t want.

Not because the evidence is weak.

But because the implications are overwhelming.

Because if Jesus is Lord, then I am not.

If Jesus is King, then I must bow.

If Jesus is the Messiah, then repentance isn’t optional.

And let’s be honest.

Nobody debates whether Julius Caesar existed.

Nobody questions whether Alexander the Great walked the earth.

Nobody doubts Socrates.

Yet Jesus has more manuscript evidence, more historical attestation, and more prophetic fulfillment than any figure in ancient history.

Even secular historians acknowledge He existed.

The debate isn’t whether Jesus lived.

The debate is who He was.

And the evidence points in one direction.

Not coincidence.

Not mythology.

Not blind faith.

Divine orchestration.

Because God doesn’t merely tell history.

He writes it.

And centuries before Bethlehem…

Before the manger…

Before Calvary…

Before the empty tomb…

God was already telling the story.

Prophet after prophet.

Century after century.

Promise after promise.

Until finally, Heaven stepped into human history.

And His name was Jesus Christ.

The probability isn’t the miracle.

The miracle is that God loved us enough to fulfill every promise.

And that’s why Jesus isn’t one option among many.

He is the fulfillment of everything God promised.

And every prophecy ultimately points to one Person.

Jesus.

Very convincing Fred. I am giving it more thought. Thanks.

5 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

In his father's house, a spiritual realm. "Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, they will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

John 14:2-3

New International Version

² My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? ³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Remember this about Jesus,

People say Jesus wasn’t real.

People say He was just a myth.

People say Christianity was invented by men.

But here’s the problem.

You still have to explain one thing:

How did one man fulfill hundreds of prophecies written centuries before He was born?

Not ten years before.

Not fifty years before.

Some were written over 1,000 years before His birth.

And He fulfilled them.

Not vaguely.

Specifically.

Micah said the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.

Isaiah said He would be born of a virgin.

Zechariah said He would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey.

David described His hands and feet being pierced centuries before crucifixion even existed.

Isaiah said He would be silent before His accusers.

Zechariah said He would be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver.

Psalm 22 said soldiers would cast lots for His garments.

Isaiah said He would be buried with the rich.

And that’s just a handful.

The Old Testament contains over 300 Messianic prophecies.

Think about that.

Over 300.

And Jesus fulfilled them.

Now skeptics say:

“That’s coincidence.”

Really?

Let’s talk probability.

The chance of just eight or nine specific prophecies being fulfilled by one person by random chance has been estimated at approximately one in 10⁷⁶.

That’s a number so massive your mind can’t comprehend it.

To put that into perspective, cover the entire state of Texas two feet deep with silver dollars.

Mark one coin.

Mix them all together.

Blindfold a man.

Send him anywhere into Texas.

And let him pick one coin.

First try.

That’s the probability of only eight prophecies being fulfilled by chance.

Now imagine 48 prophecies.

The probability becomes one in 10¹⁵⁷.

That’s not merely unlikely.

That’s beyond astronomical.

And Jesus fulfilled far more than that.

Now someone says:

“He intentionally fulfilled them.”

Really?

Did He choose where He was born?

Did He arrange His lineage?

Did He control the soldiers gambling for His clothes?

Did He orchestrate His betrayal price?

Did He determine the manner of His death?

Did He control being pierced?

Did He arrange His burial in a rich man’s tomb?

No.

These events were outside human control.

And here’s the deeper issue.

People don’t reject Jesus because of a lack of evidence.

They reject Him because of what the evidence demands.

Because if Jesus fulfilled prophecy, then He isn’t merely a teacher.

He isn’t merely a prophet.

He isn’t merely a historical figure.

He is who He claimed to be.

The Messiah.

The Son of God.

The King of kings.

And that’s what many people don’t want.

Not because the evidence is weak.

But because the implications are overwhelming.

Because if Jesus is Lord, then I am not.

If Jesus is King, then I must bow.

If Jesus is the Messiah, then repentance isn’t optional.

And let’s be honest.

Nobody debates whether Julius Caesar existed.

Nobody questions whether Alexander the Great walked the earth.

Nobody doubts Socrates.

Yet Jesus has more manuscript evidence, more historical attestation, and more prophetic fulfillment than any figure in ancient history.

Even secular historians acknowledge He existed.

The debate isn’t whether Jesus lived.

The debate is who He was.

And the evidence points in one direction.

Not coincidence.

Not mythology.

Not blind faith.

Divine orchestration.

Because God doesn’t merely tell history.

He writes it.

And centuries before Bethlehem…

Before the manger…

Before Calvary…

Before the empty tomb…

God was already telling the story.

Prophet after prophet.

Century after century.

Promise after promise.

Until finally, Heaven stepped into human history.

And His name was Jesus Christ.

The probability isn’t the miracle.

The miracle is that God loved us enough to fulfill every promise.

And that’s why Jesus isn’t one option among many.

He is the fulfillment of everything God promised.

And every prophecy ultimately points to one Person.

Jesus.

Some of the historical documents removed from the bible suggest Jesus taught mindfulness and that heaven was set out on the earth’s surface just look for it. They also say he said god was inside all of us.

There was no suggestion of JC’s divinity until about 90 years after his death.

I think you’re mistaking the bible for being some kind of divine word of god when in fact it’s been put together by 40ish men and if it was divine it wouldn’t have been revised so many times.

Quoting it is pointless. It’s a circular argument.

8 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Some of the historical documents removed from the bible suggest Jesus taught mindfulness and that heaven was set out on the earth’s surface just look for it. They also say he said god was inside all of us.

There was no suggestion of JC’s divinity until about 90 years after his death.

I think you’re mistaking the bible for being some kind of divine word of god when in fact it’s been put together by 40ish men and if it was divine it wouldn’t have been revised so many times.

Quoting it is pointless. It’s a circular argument.

I'm not mistaking anything, as I know the written word can be different than what God wanted it to be, as they were humans writing it. Believing all is wrong is ludicrous. That any is right shows there's a God. Like I've said many times before, this topic is "Do you believe in anything and why", so I stated my beliefs. You can disagree but aren't going to convince me or other believes otherwise about our belief in God.