8 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I rely on faith because sometimes it's all you have. Life sucks at times. Mostly about loss, bad people getting what they want, cheating, scamming, abuse, neglect, lies, manipulations , corruption and failures, but there are some good things.

That bad people get away with things while the decent hurt, shows me more that's is still a test.

You can know most everything but it may not help you, and you can know a little, and believe, and it will be all good and no pain when you get to heaven.

Everyone comes from their own share of hell and good. It's what you do with it that counts, as no one has all the answers. Temporary life here, forever in heaven. That people can go through hell on earth and still believe in God, is exactly what I would see as a test.

Fred, that is an honest answer, and I respect that more than pretending to know everything.

I understand why faith gives comfort when life is unfair. Decent people suffer, and sometimes life makes no sense. I get that part.

Where I question it is when suffering becomes explained too easily as “a test.” Children are born sick. People lose everything. Some suffer before they even understand life. If that is a test, then we still have to ask what kind of test it really is.

Personally, I believe when I die, the fuse is out, and that is it. Recycled back into nature, and eternal life is only secured if you managed to spread your seeds.

2 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

.

This is why I've always said you'll see when you die. He created us and sits back, letting us use our free will, to see if we follow that creation and do what's right, or just do what we want and not care about anything more than this life.

He doesn’t need to do that, he’s already all knowing, he already knows, right Fred?

42 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Take some time and listen to this video. You can keep it in the background while using another page..................https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7cR_v5u59M&t=2s

Yeah, I watched the first 3 minutes.

Sorry, I don't believe Buddhists are all in Hell / The Lake of Fire because they didn't believe in Jesus.

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

Fred, that is an honest answer, and I respect that more than pretending to know everything.

I understand why faith gives comfort when life is unfair. Decent people suffer, and sometimes life makes no sense. I get that part.

Where I question it is when suffering becomes explained too easily as “a test.” Children are born sick. People lose everything. Some suffer before they even understand life. If that is a test, then we still have to ask what kind of test it really is.

Personally, I believe when I die, the fuse is out, and that is it. Recycled back into nature, and eternal life is only secured if you managed to spread your seeds.

I see the hurt others experience as a test for those that don't. Many turn away from God because they lose someone, asking how God could do this if he loves us.

The same thing with those who were born into money or got it easily by manipulation. They can't buy more years no matter how much they have, and God's words once said, "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. I see faith no matter what happens as that test.

1 minute ago, save the frogs said:

Yeah, I watched the first 3 minutes.

Sorry, I don't believe Buddhists are all in Hell / The Lake of Fire because they didn't believe in Jesus.

It's a monk telling what he saw, after being dead for 3 days.I'm guessing so he could pass this on to other Buddhists and believers.Not Jesus but belief in God.

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

He doesn’t need to do that, he’s already all knowing, he already knows, right Fred?

It doesn't matter what he knows but what we do.

2 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I see the hurt others experience as a test for those that don't. Many turn away from God because they lose someone, asking how God could do this if he loves us.

I see it as evidence he doesn’t exist. If he were to exist then I would see it as evidence he’s an evil, capricious god.

3 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

God's words once said, "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of God

God didn’t say that. It’s alleged a man once said that, but clearly it’s nonsense.

4 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

It's a monk telling what he saw, after being dead for 3 days.I'm guessing so he could pass this on to other Buddhists and believers.Not Jesus but belief in God.

Yeah, but people can make things up.

1 minute ago, save the frogs said:

Yeah, but people can make things up.

Like Christianity

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I see it as evidence he doesn’t exist. If he were to exist then I would see it as evidence he’s an evil, capricious god.

God didn’t say that. It’s alleged a man once said that, but clearly it’s nonsense.

Yes, this is what you see it as, but the millions of believers see things different.

6 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Yeah, but people can make things up.

Yes, which makes us humans with the free will he gave us. Lies, manipulations, narcissism, and all it brings is the result.

15 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Yes, which makes us humans with the free will he gave us. Lies, manipulations, narcissism, and all it brings is the result.

This is a book I recommend.

An American went to Japan and studied Buddhist philosophy there.

Sorry, I know you're a Bible guy.

But just messing with you a bit.

3 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I see the hurt others experience as a test for those that don't. Many turn away from God because they lose someone, asking how God could do this if he loves us.

The same thing with those who were born into money or got it easily by manipulation. They can't buy more years no matter how much they have, and God's words once said, "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. I see faith no matter what happens as that test.

My question is simple: How can a creator keep track of everyone’s business, every action, every thought, every loss, and every living creature on Earth, unless he built a system to do it?

A simulation would be a tempting answer, where everything is recorded and stored. Today we would probably call that an AI based world, with reports, history, and data on everyone. Under certain conditions, I am tempted to believe it is possible. I ask what kind of system would be needed if every life is watched, judged, tested, and remembered.

Nature already shows us hidden systems everywhere. Fungi are not just mushrooms. The real system is the mycelium, hidden under our feet. It connects soil, roots, dead matter, living plants, bacteria, animals, and the whole cycle of life. It breaks down death and feeds new life. It moves nutrients, water, carbon, and signals through nature.

That is why some call it nature’s super web.

They influence life from below, and without them, life on Earth would not work the same way. Fungi shape the local environment and even produce chemical solutions, including antibiotics like penicillin.

We humans are separating ourselves more and more from the natural environment, clinically and mentally, without knowing the real consequences.

I know you and me have been down this road before, so we do not need to repeat everything again. But I still disagree with your reasoning, and I see religion more as a problem than a saviour.

23 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Yes, this is what you see it as, but the millions of believers see things different.

At the point that was said, he did not claim to be anything other than a Jew.

Clearly not divine or on the cross he would have known and not needed to ask why his god had forsaken him.

Jesus said we are all god, he is within us.

You have to remember, all the claims JC was divine originated from one man’s writings, Saul of Tarsus.

Saul had his own agenda and it’s already established he was a man of poor morals.

It’s easy to discount Christianity, which then points you to Judaism. JC believed in Judaism.

9 minutes ago, Hummin said:

My question is simple: How can a creator keep track of everyone’s business, every action, every thought, every loss, and every living creature on Earth, unless he built a system to do it?

A simulation would be a tempting answer, where everything is recorded and stored. Today we would probably call that an AI based world, with reports, history, and data on everyone. Under certain conditions, I am tempted to believe it is possible. I ask what kind of system would be needed if every life is watched, judged, tested, and remembered.

Nature already shows us hidden systems everywhere. Fungi are not just mushrooms. The real system is the mycelium, hidden under our feet. It connects soil, roots, dead matter, living plants, bacteria, animals, and the whole cycle of life. It breaks down death and feeds new life. It moves nutrients, water, carbon, and signals through nature.

That is why some call it nature’s super web.

They influence life from below, and without them, life on Earth would not work the same way. Fungi shape the local environment and even produce chemical solutions, including antibiotics like penicillin.

We humans are separating ourselves more and more from the natural environment, clinically and mentally, without knowing the real consequences.

I know you and me have been down this road before, so we do not need to repeat everything again. But I still disagree with your reasoning, and I see religion more as a problem than a saviour.

You do realize you’re not meant to ask questions like this, you’re meant to have faith.

Hummin? Presumably Chetter Hummin?

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

You do realize you’re not meant to ask questions like this, you’re meant to have faith.

Hummin? Presumably Chetter Hummin?

We all owe it to ourselves to educate ourselves, and not make excuses. 😉

Be curious. Do not only read what pleases you, or what feeds your insecurity or ego.

Most of us carry a little bit of both.

8 minutes ago, Hummin said:

We all owe it to ourselves to educate ourselves, and not make excuses. 😉

Be curious. Do not only read what pleases you, or what feeds your insecurity or ego.

Most of us carry a little bit of both.

My philosophy exactly.

48 minutes ago, Hummin said:

My question is simple: How can a creator keep track of everyone’s business, every action, every thought, every loss, and every living creature on Earth, unless he built a system to do it?

A simulation would be a tempting answer, where everything is recorded and stored. Today we would probably call that an AI based world, with reports, history, and data on everyone. Under certain conditions, I am tempted to believe it is possible. I ask what kind of system would be needed if every life is watched, judged, tested, and remembered.

Nature already shows us hidden systems everywhere. Fungi are not just mushrooms. The real system is the mycelium, hidden under our feet. It connects soil, roots, dead matter, living plants, bacteria, animals, and the whole cycle of life. It breaks down death and feeds new life. It moves nutrients, water, carbon, and signals through nature.

That is why some call it nature’s super web.

They influence life from below, and without them, life on Earth would not work the same way. Fungi shape the local environment and even produce chemical solutions, including antibiotics like penicillin.

We humans are separating ourselves more and more from the natural environment, clinically and mentally, without knowing the real consequences.

I know you and me have been down this road before, so we do not need to repeat everything again. But I still disagree with your reasoning, and I see religion more as a problem than a saviour.

Which is why I don't speak of religion but just a personal relationship with God. Much of what was written is just history, like all history God has given us so we have more than boredom on earth. We are connected to nature and man has destroyed more things then in the past then we have left now.

That's why I see God as a creator, as much thinking went into this plan, a lot for our benefits to learn and teach.

I don't see the earth lasting very much longer, as man has proven to be a detriment to nature from his greedy ways. Not all of course but those who have the money and power. This could have been a great world if everyone was on the same page. This is why I also see this as a test.

God made the earth just so big, before population and global warming does us in. He could have easily made earth the size of Jupiter and it would have lasted millions of more years, but this size with him knowing what we were capable of in destroying it. This is also why I see that he has a much better "earth" waiting for us, with all the good and no destruction, just as it was on day one.

47 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

At the point that was said, he did not claim to be anything other than a Jew.

Clearly not divine or on the cross he would have known and not needed to ask why his god had forsaken him.

Jesus said we are all god, he is within us.

You have to remember, all the claims JC was divine originated from one man’s writings, Saul of Tarsus.

Saul had his own agenda and it’s already established he was a man of poor morals.

It’s easy to discount Christianity, which then points you to Judaism. JC believed in Judaism.

A man of poor morals could also have some truth in him. A few of the Apostles also said Jesus was divine. That he was still a man shows some weaknesses, as in his own faith before death. Christianity or Judaism, it doesn't matter, as both agree there is a God. The council of Nicaea also proclaimed Jesus was divine in 325 AD. Looked that up along with this..................https://answersingenesis.org/jesus/jesus-is-god/divinity-jesus-revealed-new-testament/.

Edited June 19Jun 19 by fredwiggy

2 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

A man of poor morals could also have some truth in him. A few of the Apostles also said Jesus was divine. That he was still a man shows some weaknesses, as in his own faith before death. Christianity or Judaism, it doesn't matter, as both agree there is a God.

A few of the apostles? You mean the same Saul of Tarsus, the man with poor morals who wrote those apostles gospels? You do realize it all comes back to him?

You do know Jesus said what you need to enter Heaven, and you don’t need to believe in him.

Matthew 19:17

Jesus said all you need is to obey some commandments

He goes on to list them in Matthew 19:18-19

“You shall not murder,

You shall not commit adultery,

You shall not steal,

You shall not bear false witness [or give false testimony],

Honor your father and mother,

and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Absolutely nothing about believing in JC or god.

Praise the Flying Spaghetti Monster for I have been saved and will achieve immortality.

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

A few of the apostles? You mean the same Saul of Tarsus, the man with poor morals who wrote those apostles gospels? You do realize it all comes back to him?

You do know Jesus said what you need to enter Heaven, and you don’t need to believe in him.

Matthew 19:17

Jesus said all you need is to obey some commandments

He goes on to list them in Matthew 19:18-19

“You shall not murder,

You shall not commit adultery,

You shall not steal,

You shall not bear false witness [or give false testimony],

Honor your father and mother,

and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Absolutely nothing about believing in JC or god.

Praise the Flying Spaghetti Monster for I have been saved and will achieve immortality.

Read the link I provided, as I put it there after my original post. Saul is Apostle Paul.

When Jesus spoke to the rich man, he left out the first four commandments—which focus on loving and obeying God—to expose that the man actually put his wealth before God. Jesus used this clever strategy to prove the man failed to keep the first and greatest commandment: to love God with all his heart. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Does it say all you need to do is obey SOME commandments? No. You have to read all of what he said, as he was talking to a rich man

The Rich and the Kingdom of God

¹⁶ Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

¹⁷ “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

¹⁸ “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, ¹⁹ honor your father and mother,’^[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’^[d]”

²⁰ “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

²¹ Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

²² When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

²³ Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. ²⁴ Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

²⁵ When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

²⁶ Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

²⁷ Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. ²⁹ And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife^[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. ³⁰ But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.... Jesus was still talking about how to get into heaven

Edited June 19Jun 19 by fredwiggy

I have always said Saul of Tarsus is Paul. A man with poor morals.

Regarding the rich man going to heaven.

JC had already told him ALL that was required to enter heaven.

Selling his possessions was said after he had already been told ALL that was required.

JC said afterwards “IF you want to be perfect”.

He never said you HAVE to be perfect.

Fred, apply the test of goodness, the answer is obvious. ALL good people go to Heaven in your religion.

I believe people who post YouTube videos in discussion forums and expect other to click their links and be amazed at how clever they are for selecting such an appropriate video, are deluded.

4 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

I believe people who post YouTube videos in discussion forums and expect other to click their links and be amazed at how clever they are for selecting such an appropriate video, are deluded.

I believe to post a video without a synopsis is wrong.

7 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I have always said Saul of Tarsus is Paul. A man with poor morals.

Regarding the rich man going to heaven.

JC had already told him ALL that was required to enter heaven.

Selling his possessions was said after he had already been told ALL that was required.

JC said afterwards “IF you want to be perfect”.

He never said you HAVE to be perfect.

Fred, apply the test of goodness, the answer is obvious. ALL good people go to Heaven in your religion.

It isn't all about being good but having belief in God. Of course being good is part of that. God doesn't expect you to be a maniac and believe in him and think you're doing okay. All these things, Jesus' teachings, I heard when in Catholic school 1962-1970. After that it was with my girlfriend and since watching church on TV and going to various ones through the years, all saying the same things.

3 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

I believe people who post YouTube videos in discussion forums and expect other to click their links and be amazed at how clever they are for selecting such an appropriate video, are deluded.

Guilty as charged! But no, I know my audience here, so there is very little chance anyone will bother. Still, there might be one who appreciates it, even if they do not participate in the discussion..

2 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

It isn't all about being good but having belief in God. Of course being good is part of that. God doesn't expect you to be a maniac and believe in him and think you're doing okay. All these things, Jesus' teachings, I heard when in Catholic school 1962-1970. After that it was with my girlfriend and since watching church on TV and going to various ones through the years, all saying the same things.

That’s not what JC taught.

JC only taught about being good.

What I quoted explains why people’s before BCE, good non-believers and those who have never heard of JC will all be in Heaven.

It passes the test of goodness.

For any part of religion to have any worth, it MUST pass the test of goodness.

It’s clear you believe in bad things. It’s no coincidence that those bad things benefit the church in their control over you.

3 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

That’s not what JC taught.

JC only taught about being good.

What I quoted explains why people’s before BCE, good non-believers and those who have never heard of JC will all be in Heaven.

It passes the test of goodness.

For any part of religion to have any worth, it MUST pass the test of goodness.

It’s clear you believe in bad things. It’s no coincidence that those bad things benefit the church in their control over you.

What's not what Jesus taught? I know what he taught as again, I was in that Catholic school for 8 years, and continued my beliefs since. You keep assuming the church has control over us. They don't. Adults believe what they want to believe. How do I believe in bad things? Bad things are part of life, and people's actions. It's what man has been living with since man was created.

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

What's not what Jesus taught? I know what he taught as again, I was in that Catholic school for 8 years, and continued my beliefs since. You keep assuming the church has control over us. They don't. Adults believe what they want to believe. How do I believe in bad things? Bad things are part of life, and people's actions. It's what man has been living with since man was created.

You believe in parts of the bible that don’t pass the test of goodness.

JC said all you have to do is follow the non-religious commandments.

10 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

You believe in parts of the bible that don’t pass the test of goodness.

JC said all you have to do is follow the non-religious commandments.

No, he was talking to the rich man in that situation, as you can read. You can't assume what I believe in besides what I've said here. Again, why bother, seeing you're an atheist?