Did You Ever Make Some Thai Lose Face?

[Bluecat]

We always talk about losing face.

And how important it is for the Thai (and for Asian people in general).

But did you ever do something that made them lose face?

And "pay" the consequences.

It never really happened to me in a significant way.

I'm always trying to keep cool in any occasion.

However difficult it is.

What about you?

[johng]

Well I'm sorry to say that I have made my girlfriend "loose face" quite a few times now, mostly by telling her that she is wrong about something in front of her friends or even worse in front of her customers !!

I try to keep calm but can't allways contain myself it's still a strange concept to me the "face" thing, but I am slowly learning to say things in a roundabout sort of way instead of directly.

The worse consequence so far has been that I didn't get laid that night, we make up in the morning....usually

I'm sure if I upset the wrong person the consequences would be much worse than that

[andyinkat]

I learnt my lesson and paid very dearly for my failure to appreciate how much it matters.

Now I'm in LOS but previously i was in Nepal where I was extremely happy and never wanted to leave.

I was working in a school - I have 15 years' experience of teaching and managing in education. The Principal was a 22 year old who had no experience or understanding of anything. Can you see where this is heading?

I never criticised him in public but privately I did have a habit of pointing out his endless balls-ups and offering suggestions for improvements.

He got me. I was depending on him to write a letter to the education authority so I could get a long term visa. He assured me he had - it was less than a week before my visa expired that the truth dawned on me. At a moment's notice I had to leave my home, my job, my students, the country (no visa run in Nepal). The students lost a ###### of a good teacher but at least his authority is now unchallenged.

Revenge is a dish best served cold eh? I'll try to be more tactful in LOS but it ain't always easy.

[kitty]

I've seen many Thai's lose face, the worst being a thai boy(17)slashing another thai's throat,and another where a few guns were pulled out. However I think this was due to where i was staying in thailand

[chonabot]

I've seen many Thai's lose face, the worst being a thai boy(17)slashing another thai's throat,and another where a few guns were pulled out. However I think this was due to where i was staying in thailand

Sounds like either Chumpon/Petburi or Ratchaburi?

[chonabot]

Myself and a friend were stopped in Hua Hin ( Soi Bintabang) about an hour after arriving, by a motorcycle taxi driver and an undercover copper.

I heard the word Ganja used a few times, the copper tried to put something into my hand, I stepped back, he dropped a bag of grass on the floor. Basically he then tried to handcuff me in a sloppy way, I pushed him to the floor , his mate stepped forward to be met by my elbow.

all of this was witness by some BG's, the guys got up , glared and fled the scene.

We left asap , I never went back to Hua Hin , which was a shame

[kitty]

I've seen many Thai's lose face, the worst being a thai boy(17)slashing another thai's throat,and another where a few guns were pulled out. However I think this was due to where i was staying in thailand

Sounds like either Chumpon/Petburi or Ratchaburi?

Koh Phangan!

Typical poo hole with Thai's turning into nasty westerners.....sad.

[penelope]

I've fired several thais(hence loss of face).The consequence is, now they are unemployed

[wamberal]

Penelope, you are very fortunate not to have suffered some sort of consequences. There is a Thai way of doing these sorts of things, and I would recommend, if at all possible, getting another Thai person involved in anything like a dismissal.

Quite a few years ago now, when I was working in Thailand, a professor at Chulalongkorn University (I think he was Japanese, but not sure now) dismissed one of the low ranking Thai staff. The dismissed person killed him.

[GuestHouse]

I have a friend whos Thai wife was f@cking around with a local guy. He split with his wife relatively amicably and then went to visit her parents to say goodbye, he was leaving Thailand to go live in Hong Kong.

While at the village he donated a water buffalo to his ex wife's father but hung a name tag around it's throat, the name tag read "Lucky" he told everyone in the village that lucky meant 'Having Chock Dee' and that the buffalo was Lucky because it had come to live with this family in this village, he garnerred the story by say, just like he had been Lucky to come and move to Thailand and meet somany good people.

By the time he left the village a day later, the water buffalo was definately being called ''Lucky'.

Lucky was the nickname of the guy his Mrs. had been sh@gging.

[penelope]

Penelope, you are very fortunate not to have suffered some sort of consequences. There is a Thai way of doing these sorts of things, and I would recommend, if at all possible, getting another Thai person involved in anything like a dismissal.

Quite a few years ago now, when I was working in Thailand, a professor at Chulalongkorn University (I think he was Japanese, but not sure now) dismissed one of the low ranking Thai staff. The dismissed person killed him.

I use the word "fired" with a degree of bluntness, however in reality the dismissal process in a large US multinational is a little more bureacratic,thorough and ethical.And yes Thai people at a department managerial level are involved(to a certain extent).

[KevinN]

I've seen many Thai's lose face, the worst being a thai boy(17)slashing another thai's throat,and another where a few guns were pulled out. However I think this was due to where i was staying in thailand

Sounds like either Chumpon/Petburi or Ratchaburi?

Koh Phangan!

Typical poo hole with Thai's turning into nasty westerners.....sad.

I don't know what westerners have to do with it.

They have had gangs of bad people in countrys all over the world for centurys,long before westerners came to Thailand and a long time before there was a thailand,even in Siam before the name change.

The Russian mafia is an Asian people,Russia is in Asia, and is very strong in Thailand, They have had a TONG kind of cult or what ever you want to call it for centurys here in southern asia,Was brought to the USA in the early 1800s and is still doing great there and was also refreshed by Viet Nam tong members not long back. In Japan it was Samari which altho was supposed to be an honorable profession,was only employees of war lords and did their bidding,to do the unquestioned bidding of your master was considered Honorable. This was done for a long time before round eyes were allowed to set foot in Japan.

Why is it always WESTERN PEOPLE who cause all the trouble and do the bad stuff? I would think the worst people are those scampering about blaming someone without ever reading anything but comic books and fuk stories.

[Sarawudt]

I've seen many Thai's lose face, the worst being a thai boy(17)slashing another thai's throat,and another where a few guns were pulled out. However I think this was due to where i was staying in thailand

Sounds like either Chumpon/Petburi or Ratchaburi?

Koh Phangan!

Typical poo hole with Thai's turning into nasty westerners.....sad.

At last a farang who all blames it on farang, welcome to Thai Rak Thai!

Please go home kitty, come back when your a real cat that can provide some intelligent postings.

[Begs]

The Principal was a 22 year old who had no experience or understanding of anything. Can you see where this is heading?

Yea, i can see where it is heading....................but he was the Mechanic, you where just the oily rag.

Should have kept quiet.

[Begs]

I have a friend whos Thai wife was f@cking around with a local guy. He split with his wife relatively amicably and then went to visit her parents to say goodbye, he was leaving Thailand to go live in Hong Kong.

While at the village he donated a water buffalo to his ex wife's father but hung a name tag around it's throat, the name tag read "Lucky" he told everyone in the village that lucky meant 'Having Chock Dee' and that the buffalo was Lucky because it had come to live with this family in this village, he garnerred the story by say, just like he had been Lucky to come and move to Thailand and meet somany good people.

By the time he left the village a day later, the water buffalo was definately being called ''Lucky'.

Lucky was the nickname of the guy his Mrs. had been sh@gging.

Have another 5 large Changs!

[rod_kalashnikov]

 

[Ajarn]

East or West, face is the same, in my experience. Only the individuals are different. Feelings are the same.

[Pepe']

Having been a builder for many years I did a walk through inspection at a commercial building my wife's mom was putting up in Samuts Sakorn last year.

The laborors were plastering the interior walls and ceilings with concrete.

There were piles of hardened concrete that had fallen all over the floor that was supposed to be finished with tile.

I saw this as a major problem considering the building was already quite behind schedual.

I spoke to my wife and her mom about this and we went to the building. I suggested that the remaining three floors be protected with plastic tarps or thin ply wood so we didn't have the same mess.

The contracter said they would jackhammer up all of the hardened concrete it was no problem and that was the way they allways did it.

I said protecting the floor was quicker and cheaper.

He waked off and abandoned the job the next day.

My wife said I made him lose face.

In New York, if a contractor pulled a stunt like that we wouldn't have made him lose his face but we would definately really change it...

[Pepe']

Yes I meant walked off. I think...

[Rhys]

The honest mistake works here as well.. DA.

[mbkudu]

East or West, face is the same, in my experience. Only the individuals are different. Feelings are the same.

I'm not so sure about this Ajarn. I think Farangs tend to 'shrug off' a mistake or a 'difference of opinion,' but a Thai will often let their emotions take over. Often times this emotion leads to irrational behavior that could have been avoided with

a simple exchange of ideas. Often hired help just disappears because they did something silly that is inconsequential to the employer, and the employer lets them know there is no harm done. The next day the worker is gone; unable to face the employer. The last thing the employer wanted was the employee to leave.

Oh well.

[wamberal]

I use the word "fired" with a degree of bluntness, however in reality the dismissal process in a large US multinational is a little more bureacratic,thorough and ethical.And yes Thai people at a department managerial level are involved(to a certain extent).

Penelope,

I think you are pretty well covered if you are part of a US company...the sort of people you are hiring and firing would be well aware that they might need a reference etc. They might also have aspirations of emigrating to the US one day. I think the risks tend to more with less educated, lower ranking staff. The fact that you are aware of "face" means that you are probably handling the issues sensitively.

I have found that in most cultures, if you call someone in for a performance review and they know that they haven't been performing, they will more or less sack themselves if you give them a bit of room in the dialogue. Mind you, most of my background is IT-related, and IT people tend to be fairly rational.

[eyespan]

QUOTE (penelope @ Tue 2004-07-27, 08:04:05)

I use the word "fired" with a degree of bluntness, however in reality the dismissal process in a large US multinational is a little more bureacratic,thorough and ethical.And yes Thai people at a department managerial level are involved(to a certain extent).

Penelope,

I think you are pretty well covered if you are part of a US company...the sort of people you are hiring and firing would be well aware that they might need a reference etc. They might also have aspirations of emigrating to the US one day. I think the risks tend to more with less educated, lower ranking staff. The fact that you are aware of "face" means that you are probably handling the issues sensitively.

I have found that in most cultures, if you call someone in for a performance review and they know that they haven't been performing, they will more or less sack themselves if you give them a bit of room in the dialogue. Mind you, most of my background is IT-related, and IT people tend to be fairly rational.

What's the big deal about firing people? I've had to fire 3 in the last 2 years in Thailand and they all took it well. Just tell them at closing time that they don't have to come back tomorrow and pay them whatever you owe them. And I deal in foodstuff.... mostly seafood. Rough enough people?

There was once though, I witnessed the stabbing of a chinese foreman at the fishmarket in Songkhla. Apparently the foreman insulted the fella's mother.

[Sarawudt]

East or West, face is the same, in my experience. Only the individuals are different. Feelings are the same.

I'm not so sure about this Ajarn. I think Farangs tend to 'shrug off' a mistake or a 'difference of opinion,' but a Thai will often let their emotions take over. Often times this emotion leads to irrational behavior that could have been avoided with

a simple exchange of ideas. Often hired help just disappears because they did something silly that is inconsequential to the employer, and the employer lets them know there is no harm done. The next day the worker is gone; unable to face the employer. The last thing the employer wanted was the employee to leave.

Oh well.

Ajarn has no clue about cultural differences between Thailand and the west, the fact that he's a farang and calls himself "ajarn" and then utters crap says enough.

[Boon Mee]

It really does take serious interest/study to get a handle on the Thai mind-set w/respect to face. Agree w/Sarawudt - feelings are vastly different between Thai & Farang.

It's a rather large topic...

[Ajarn]

East or West, face is the same, in my experience. Only the individuals are different. Feelings are the same.

I'm not so sure about this Ajarn. I think Farangs tend to 'shrug off' a mistake or a 'difference of opinion,' but a Thai will often let their emotions take over. Often times this emotion leads to irrational behavior that could have been avoided with

a simple exchange of ideas. Often hired help just disappears because they did something silly that is inconsequential to the employer, and the employer lets them know there is no harm done. The next day the worker is gone; unable to face the employer. The last thing the employer wanted was the employee to leave.

Oh well.

Yes, I see your points, and I agree that many Thais/Asians will not likely shrug off the feeling when they feel they've lost face, but I don't know many westerners who do, either. Look at road rage in the States as a reaction to losing face...or someone jumping a que, or a westerner's reaction to any number of perceived personal insults. Is there really much difference here?

I see that it's maybe more likely that a westerner will NOT shrug it off, but will make their feelings known right away, in many cases. Maybe most Thais will not show it directly, at least at first, but will be more sideways in their response, and that feeling might last a lot longer, it seems to me... But, grudges over lost face type situations in the West can last a long time, too...The Hatfields and the McCoys come to mind...

Frankly, I often find it difficult to really know what's going on inside of Thais under such situations, and my perceptions have been wrong plenty of times on an individual basis, when I've been able to get to the heart....I don't think it is easy for any of us foreigners to 'read' a Thai, in many cases.

I really think this is an interesting question, and I would like to hear more feedback from others on this topic of whether there are any inherrent differences between losing face in the West, vs the East. I still sense it feels the same to all of us to lose face, but our reactions are different due to cultural and personal differences.

[Ajarn]

East or West, face is the same, in my experience. Only the individuals are different. Feelings are the same.

I'm not so sure about this Ajarn. I think Farangs tend to 'shrug off' a mistake or a 'difference of opinion,' but a Thai will often let their emotions take over. Often times this emotion leads to irrational behavior that could have been avoided with

a simple exchange of ideas. Often hired help just disappears because they did something silly that is inconsequential to the employer, and the employer lets them know there is no harm done. The next day the worker is gone; unable to face the employer. The last thing the employer wanted was the employee to leave.

Oh well.

Ajarn has no clue about cultural differences between Thailand and the west, the fact that he's a farang and calls himself "ajarn" and then utters crap says enough.

Hey, kindly piss off if you're not going to be civil here. Just because my opinion is different than yours, no need to get so angry and respond with such infantile garbage.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

I agree it's a bit daft bashing somebody on the basis of a name.

Anyway, losing face - the only enemy I ever made here was an ex girlfriend in Ko Samui who is a really arrogant nasty bitch.

During my last visit - more than two years after I was involved with this girl, she happened to be part of the party of friends I was drinking with and I had grown used to her rude unsocial behaviour though was still confused and saddenned by it as she had been the first Thai girl I'd had a liason with and to this day it meant sod all to her.

I never loved her but it was a sentimental thing.

Anyway, after a lot of drink was consumed, we got into a row in which it all came out and still didn't make any sense.

It had been raining and she was quite drunk and she told me to <deleted> off as she stormed off and goton her Honda Beat,only to lose balance and come off before she'd started it -landing in a puddle.

I made little effort to restrain my laughter and she took off her high heeled shoe and raised it, hissing "You fuking laugh at me???"

I said, "I've done you no wrong so if you want to hit me go right ahead."

And she did, and I still have the scar from the heel on my temple.

[chonabot]

Ouch , a death blow was intended for sure.....

[maerim]

Ajarn has no clue about cultural differences between Thailand and the west, the fact that he's a farang and calls himself "ajarn" and then utters crap says enough

You want to be very careful of getting on the wrong side of "ajarn" as he is very well connected, rich (he has a maid you know) and if you are very unlucky he will send you a photo of his swimming pool.

Not only that he will tell you about his wonderful car and how it suits him as he only has the use of his right arm.

do good get good

do bad get bad

It can only be guessed at to what a <deleted> he was was to get what he got.